Reverent Novus Ordo Masses?

[njmah16]

But if you phrase your post as a question, next time, request only replies that agree with you.

All I am saying is that in my experience, the TLM tends to be more reverent. I would bet a lot of money a larger percent of the people at the TLM believe in the Real Presence than at an average NO. Does that make the NO intrinsically bad? No. I think anybody would be hard-pressed to dispute that.

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

joeybaggz:

But if you phrase your post as a question, next time, request only replies that agree with you.

All I am saying is that in my experience, the TLM tends to be more reverent. I would bet a lot of money a larger percent of the people at the TLM believe in the Real Presence than at an average NO. Does that make the NO intrinsically bad? No. I think anybody would be hard-pressed to dispute that.

But you’re making a false comparison becuase you’re pitting the OF—which “everyone” attends against the EF which people make a concerted effort to get to.

One would be better off comparing, say, a well-executed Lifeteen OF to a EF Mass. Why? Because the teens and adults who attend–as well as the priest saying Mass–are making a concerted effort to not only attend but participate.

I know of more than one case where a once-a-month Lifeteen Mass celebrated by a beleaguered OF priest turned into a spiritual renewal for him when he came face to face with a passionate congregation who not only believed, but wanted to be there and recently took in his every word, said the responses and didn’t behave like petulant toddlers.

If the EF mass was the norm, we’d see the same thing we see today with the OF…and quite frankly given the ability to mentally wander off in the EF…some of those things would be “worse”.

 

[njmah16]

But you’re making a false comparison becuase you’re pitting the OF—which “everyone” attends against the EF which people make a concerted effort to get to.

That’s fair. But the question is: Why are they seeking out the Latin Mass?

 

[joeybaggz]

… the TLM tends to be more reverent. I would bet a lot of money a larger percent of the people at the TLM believe in the Real Presence than at an average NO. Does that make the NO intrinsically bad? No. I think anybody would be hard-pressed to dispute that.
[/quote]

To a degree, I would be inclined to believe that. But I am also inclined to think that the people you put down as not reverent might surprise you. I wonder about the kids, teens, and others who seem to be “sleepwalking” through the Mass, whether or not they believe in the Real Presence. I don’t know how anybody could make that assertion. I sure as he** wouldn’t. I’m not the judge, the Carpenter from Nazareth didn’t appoint me to that position, and I doubt he appointed you or any other TLM proponent to that position.

 

[joeybaggz]

That’s fair. But the question is: Why are they seeking out the Latin Mass?
[/quote]

I pass. If you thought my first post was an attack, you definitely wouldn’t like my answer to your question. I’ll leave that up to Xanthippe.

 

[Entwhistler]

Ooo. Another thread on the EF v. OF. Let me get muh guns and set up barricades.

All right. I’m ready.

I go to the EF most every Sunday (although I went to an OF Mass last Sunday but that’s beside the point). Yet I attended a Catholic college last year which was the OF everyday except for the EF on Fridays. We had incense on Sundays and Holy Days, sang the Kyrie and Sanctus in Greek and Latin respectively, and the altar servers were on point (since they were college students who took it seriously). Even on the weekdays were had the Kyrie and Sanctus in Greek and Latin. So, reverent OF Masses exist. And I loved it. Also, I had my First Communion at a OF church (the cathedral) and there was a full-blown orchestra there and it was gorgeous. Very reverent and inspiring.

Here is my take on the abuses that happen with both the EF and the OF. Take or leave it, I’m just thinking here. In the EF, the abuses can occur when the priest is legalistic and just goes through the motions. Also, the people may not understand Latin and may just pray the Rosary while the priest is whispering the prayers (I’m not saying that’s bad but it can change for the better). In the OF, the rubrics are not as strict as the EF which leaves more flexibility but also chances for innovations. The priest does not have to turn a certain way like in the EF. Some may view it as free-flowing, others as Father wandering around the altar. Both happen.

Now, I think that there are certain…uh…ideas or “vibes” that are associated with both forms. In the EF, most folks are trying to escape from abuses that they see in the Mass. Some see non-abuses others see actual ones. And some just find the EF touches them. Whatever the case, two people attend the EF because of this: sedevecantists (or those who lean that way) and faithful Catholics. Either way, both people want more “reverence” and contemplative reverence which is why the abuse that can happen in the EF doesn’t occur.

In the OF, since this is where most Catholics go to Mass, this is also where you get the lukewarm Catholics. Mainly because lukewarm Catholics don’t usually go to the EF because…well, different language, you might have to drive farther and the parishes generally are smaller and people might see you. This is not a knock on the OF and does not mean one form is better than the other. It is just people and demographics and statistics. It would be the other way around, if the EF was less reverent and the OF was more reverent. I think this might be a reason why the OF isn’t always as reverent as the EF because the lukewarm Catholic who only go for fellowship get into positions that run liturgy (music, organist, secretary, treasurer, etc.). That is not all of the reason but it might be one of the reasons. Just thinking out loud here. And I just figured out my post is really long. So I’d better stop here.

I’ll return to my bunker and start yelling at the other side (whoever they are).

 

[njmah16]

Now, I think that there are certain…uh…ideas or “vibes” that are associated with both forms. In the EF, most folks are trying to escape from abuses that they see in the Mass. Some see non-abuses others see actual ones. And some just find the EF touches them. Whatever the case, two people attend the EF because of this: sedevecantists (or those who lean that way) and faithful Catholics. Either way, both people want more “reverence” and contemplative reverence which is why the abuse that can happen in the EF doesn’t occur.

I agree with this.

 

[on_the_hill]

Im wondering your thoughts on the Novus Ordo vs. Traditional Latin Mass. I’ve been to a few Latin Masses, and they are unquestionably more reverent. My main question is does anybody have a Novus Ordo parish that is reverent and at least tries to be traditional. For example, I have never been to a Novus Ordo mass that does not have so-called “Eucharistic Ministers.”

And this, Ladies and Gentlemen, is why people perceive a “holier than thou” attitude among Roman Catholics who attend EO Masses. :crazy_face:

:sushing_face:

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

Xanthippe_Voorhees:

But you’re making a false comparison becuase you’re pitting the OF—which “everyone” attends against the EF which people make a concerted effort to get to.

That’s fair. But the question is: Why are they seeking out the Latin Mass?

Becuase that’s where people are finding reverence. Most people who have a clue of what’s going on and are not just punching a “Go to Mass” card want reverence. Heck, when my local parish (25 minutes away…I’m rural) began inserting an incredible amount of irreverence (despite their love of the Kyre and use of traditional items) my husband and I began the arduous search for a more reverent parish. But we went church to church. We spoke to the priest. We observed the parishioners. We looked at the offerings (Adoration, CCD, etc) We did not automatically jump to TLM.

Quite frankly, it’s a lazy way to find reverence. People will drive 60+ minutes past dozens and dozens of churches assuming they are all irreverent and all just as bad as the poor OF they have at their local parish. Perhaps they are in truly desolate dioceses. Maybe they truly did go to every last parish in an hour radius before going to the EF. Maybe…but I’d bet not often.

At to make that sort of statement with one’s actions is a bit hubristic. Again, if a person took a year or two and attended each and every OF Mass closer, then yeah, I give them credit. But, again, I’m guessing one simply sees EF and knows that people who want reverence seek it out and go.

 

[FrDavid96]

I celebrate the novus ordo.

It troubles me to know that there are people out there, people who have never been to my parish, never met me, never even heard of my parish, who automatically assume that just because a Mass follows the Missal of Bl. Paul VI that Mass is necessarily (“unquestionably” was the word used) going to be less reverent.

 

[ineeda2]

That was our parish before, and then we lost our pastor. Our former priest did not believe in extraordinary ministers, or women on the altar. Now, we have extraordinary ministers that help with Holy Communion. I am not too thrilled about the changes, However, all of the churches in our area have Eucharistic ministers.

 

[Hereiam]

I have attend OF and EF Masses in the US, Mexico, SKorea, Italy, the Vatican, but never, ever would I rate any as more or less reverent than others. I have found reverence at the Mass an internal, not external matter. Reverence radiates from the heart of the participant, not for the celebrant, the form, or the location.

 

[po18guy]

If the elements of the mass are present, then the true reverence is in the heart of the participant - both clergy and laity. Read 1 Corinthians 11:17 and following regarding abuses at the early masses. We have far less to worry about.

 

[ProVobis]

Depends on what you mean by reverent, I guess. I can’t remember the last OF Mass I attended where the priest doesn’t start with a “Good morning,…” followed by some light topic such as the weather or sports or “today we…” while we all stand for 5 minutes or so. Certainly no reference to going up to the altar of God, to offering up the Holy Sacrifice, etc… It’s not irreverent but sometimes I can’t help but ask “Why am I here? I can and should pray at home.”

That said, I’ve attended a Lutheran memorial service which pretty much resembles the OF and found it extremely reverent too.

Merely making observations.

 

[Duesenberg]

Im wondering your thoughts on the OF Mass vs. EF Mass. I’ve been to a few EF Masses, and they are unquestionably tend to be more reverent. My main question is does anybody have a Catholic parish that is overall very reverent? I ask because many of the Catholic parishes in my area have troubled me in irreverent celebration of Holy Mass. The normal use of many “Eucharistic Ministers” also troubles me. By the way, I do not regularly attend the EF Mass. (Edited because I realized the condescending tone of the original post)

The form/rubrics of the Mass has no bearing on how reverently or irreverently it will be celebrated. None. Some try to sell their personal belief that one form or another is inherently more reverent and that’s simply not true. Keep in mind a few things:

• The EF Mass is celebrated in microscopically tiny numbers compared to the OF Mass. Most of those who celebrate and attend the EF Mass are very serious (and unfortunately many times severe) about following the rubrics of the Mass. Were the EF still the OF in terms of how often it’s celebrated, their wouldn’t be these levels of seriousness and severity.
• I am certain there are FAR MORE very reverent OF Masses celebrated than very reverent EF Masses, simply due to the volume of OF Masses celebrated. Go find one.,
• I attend the same parish I did when I was a child. When I was a very small child, the church would be packed (~1,100 people) and perhaps 25% of them would present themselves for Holy Communion under one species. In other words about 275 communions. Communion was distributed only by the celebrant and it was a very long and drawn-out process. Today the church is still packed on Sundays and communion is now offered under both species – about 2200 communions or about EIGHT TIMES as many as in the past. Do the math! Like it or not, this necessitates the use of EMsHC.
• Receiving Holy Communion from a cleric is not superior to receiving from a layperson – assuming both are competent at distributing communion. I once discussed this with a “traditional Catholic” at my Eastern parish. He exclaimed that he would NEVER receive Holy Communion from a laymen because they hands are not blessed/anointed. I chuckled and cautioned him not to go to communion every again at the EC parish because EC priests (at least Byzantine Catholic priests) hands are NOT blessed/anointed. The pastor nodded his concurrence. I thought the tC’s skull was going to explode.
• Having said all that, I would make changes when it came to EMsHC. Were it my responsibility, they would be subject to a strict dress code (no revealing/inappropriate clothing) and in-depth training. If they couldn’t perform they would not be allowed to take part in the ministry.

 

[Duesenberg]

Im wondering your thoughts on the Novus Ordo vs. Traditional Latin Mass. I’ve been to a few Latin Masses, and they are unquestionably tend to be more reverent. My main question is does anybody have a Novus Ordo parish that is overall very reverent? I ask because many of the NO parishes in my area have troubled me in irreverent celebration of Holy Mass. The normal use of many “Eucharistic Ministers” also troubles me. By the way, I do not regularly attend the TLM. (Edited because I realized the condescending tone of the original post)

Down deep I do wonder if you’re deliberatly attempting to offend others?

 

[Duesenberg]

That’s fair. But the question is: Why are they seeking out the Latin Mass?

Why do MANY, MANY, MANY times more attend the OF Mass? Why is the growth of the EF Mass so minuscule?

 

[Duesenberg]

My old parish used to have a Latin OF Mass every Sunday, with at least the Sanctus and Agnus Dei chanted and a traditional Latin Communion hymn. Additionally, if I recall correctly, only the priest and deacon distributed Communion, and everyone received kneeling on the tongue. That was actually my favorite Mass, and I often (though not always) chose it over the local TLM. When the priest retired they did away with that Mass, although their normal Masses are by no means littered with abuses. Also, a recently transferred priest now offers a weekly TLM at this church’s sister parish.

We had that at one of our Masses each Sunday, largely due to a dedicated cantor. We had the Kyrie (still in place), the Sanctus and the Agnus Dei. Once we got used to all three it was really wonderful.

 

[Duesenberg]

Let’s see, the Latin Mass. I remember them from my youth and high school days in the 50’s and 60’s. Serving as an altar boy, reciting Latin responses reverently - even though I didn’t really know what I was saying - and the congregation didn’t really care either. Then there were the people saying the rosary, not really paying attention to what was going on anyway, the priest who whistled through the Mass in Latin for 500 people with only the celebrant and maybe an associate pastor distributing communion, and saying the mass in under 20 minutes to get everybody in and out quickly. Then there was the 12hour plus fast for communion in un-air conditioned churches. Ushers would carry out several people who fainted from the heat and lack of food; usually the elderly but I was one when I was 7 in my little coat and tie in the 90 degree temperature. That sure made for a reverent situation. People phonetically reciting latin prayers and responses who had no idea what they were saying, just going through the motions. Oh and not really able to see anything of importance from 30 rows back since the priest had his back to everyone. And that was just a few of the wonders of the Latin Mass.

Communion in the hand. Funny, but at the first Mass on Holy Thursday night, help me out here, was it in Latin and was there a communion rail where the twelve received on the tongue?

And I love the comment about Eucharist Ministers. Nice to know that there are some who still believe that a layman is too unworthy to hold in his hand, He who said, “And now I no longer call you slaves, but friends…” I know, I’m a heretic who likes and appreciates the NO, but I guess I just really like to see my Lord appear to me at those wonderful words of consecration spoken in a language I can understand instead of hidden by the back of someone whispering something foreign to me. I like to believe that I am worthy to hold him for a moment and take body and blood (in my parish we receive under both species - something that the old Latin Mass held was reserved only for those far worthier than myself ) as my sustenance for the journey. Loving the Mass and being able to understand what is going on and letting it become a part of me … guess that offends the sensibilities of “real” Catholics.

I wish I could “like” this posting about a dozen times. Make that two dozen…

 

[Duesenberg]

And someone could just as easily come forth and write an essay about the negative experience they had with the OF. Anecdotes don’t really get us very far.

EFers complain about the OF Mass ALL THE TIME! Just look at posting #1! @joeybaggz is pointing out that not all was peaches-n-cream when the Tridentine Mass was the OF of the Mass. There were serious issues and some seem content to either ignore or revise history.