Reversing Original Sin

[mdcpensive1]

fhansen, I want to thank you for showing me the passages from the cathechism, especially the ones #978 and 1707. They are most helpful. I appreciate your time it has taken you to reply to my question. They have given me more insite to original sin and our nature. But now I have to get back to grannymh because I still have questions (or most likely a misunderstanding).
mdcpensive1

 

[mdcpensive1]

Yes, I do understand that this thread is referring to the multiple evils resulting from humankind’s personal actions since the Fall of Adam. My presenting a few of the beginning Catholic teachings about Original Sin is due to the fact that many people, including some, not all, Catholics are looking at Original Sin as some kind of fancy symbol about good and evil. The real act of a real person is disappearing into the oblivion of fairy tales. The Catholic Church knows that we cannot tamper with the Divine Revelation of Original Sin without undermining the mystery of Jesus Christ.

While some of the below has already been discussed, I tried to group together items regarding transmission of Original Sin so that hopefully there is a clearer understanding. Catholicism is in the logical middle when it comes to the effects of Original Sin. On one end is the theory that because of the Fall of Adam, all subsequent humans are sin machines. The opposite theory is that Original Sin did not actually exist; instead awareness of evil emerged as societies developed.

Original Sin is the actual sin of the first person in human history. Because the whole human species, from start to present, was in Adam “as one body of one man”, all humans are implicated in Adam’s sin just as all humans are implicated in the salvific act of the Crucifixion of Our Lord Jesus Christ.

Original Sin is called “sin” only in an analogical sense because it is a sin “contracted” by Adam’s descendants and not “committed” personally by his descendants. Original Sin is a state of human nature. This state of deprivation of original holiness is transmitted to all of Adam’s descendants through propagation. Thus, “Original Sin” itself cannot be reversed; it can be removed by Baptism which is sanctifying grace from God.

Human nature, also transmitted from Adam to his descendants, was wounded by the act of Original Sin. Because we cannot reverse our damaged human nature, we cannot remove Original Sin’s wounded effect on all humanity. However — through our spiritual soul’s powers of intellect and will, we can address the evil effects of personal sins which have been freely committed since Adam. Yes, we can atone for personal sins committed by ourselves and others. Still, it is only Jesus Christ, True God and True Man, Who could atone for the Original Sin which affected all subsequent humans.

Thank you grannymh for your insight into my question. I always appreciate your thoughful comments as well as the others from my forum friends. The matter is that I agree with what you said as well as the others in the discussion. That must mean that I have used some wrong terminology or have a wrong assuption.

My assuption is maybe that I considered concupiscience to be the thing that came into our world from adam and eve which started (prime movement so to speak) things going wrong in our world. I may be confusing concupiscience with original sin? From yours and other statements, you seem to say that loss of original justice is a “condition” that is taken away by baptism only. I know that baptism does this, but as in the sacrament of reconciliation, we are forgiven but still have temporal punishment that must/should be expiated through penances to be done as justice for the one whom we offended if we don’t want to go through the cleansing that is purgatory.

So I guess my question is if we can reduce or rid ourselves of the temporal punishment for our sins can we reduce the effects of original sin in our lives by doing what negates temporal punishment? Do these same acts which reduce temporal punishment decrease our propensity for concupiscience?
mdcpensive1

 

[fhansen]

Here are a couple more relevant paragraphs:

**405 Although it is proper to each individual, original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam’s descendants. It is a deprivation of original holiness and justice, but human nature has not been totally corrupted: it is wounded in the natural powers proper to it, subject to ignorance, suffering and the dominion of death, and inclined to sin - an inclination to evil that is called concupiscence". Baptism, by imparting the life of Christ’s grace, erases original sin and turns a man back towards God, but the consequences for nature, weakened and inclined to evil, persist in man and summon him to spiritual battle.

1426 Conversion to Christ, the new birth of Baptism, the gift of the Holy Spirit and the Body and Blood of Christ received as food have made us “holy and without blemish,” just as the Church herself, the Bride of Christ, is “holy and without blemish.” Nevertheless the new life received in Christian initiation has not abolished the frailty and weakness of human nature, nor the inclination to sin that tradition calls concupiscence, which remains in the baptized such that with the help of the grace of Christ they may prove themselves in the struggle of Christian life. This is the struggle of conversion directed toward holiness and eternal life to which the Lord never ceases to call us.
**

 

[mdcpensive1]

Here are a couple more relevant paragraphs:

**405 Although it is proper to each individual, original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam’s descendants. It is a deprivation of original holiness and justice, but human nature has not been totally corrupted: it is wounded in the natural powers proper to it, subject to ignorance, suffering and the dominion of death, and inclined to sin - an inclination to evil that is called concupiscence". Baptism, by imparting the life of Christ’s grace, erases original sin and turns a man back towards God, but the consequences for nature, weakened and inclined to evil, persist in man and summon him to spiritual battle.

1426 Conversion to Christ, the new birth of Baptism, the gift of the Holy Spirit and the Body and Blood of Christ received as food have made us “holy and without blemish,” just as the Church herself, the Bride of Christ, is “holy and without blemish.” Nevertheless the new life received in Christian initiation has not abolished the frailty and weakness of human nature, nor the inclination to sin that tradition calls concupiscence, which remains in the baptized such that with the help of the grace of Christ they may prove themselves in the struggle of Christian life. This is the struggle of conversion directed toward holiness and eternal life to which the Lord never ceases to call us.
**

Thanks for the references. The one in #405 is what interests me in that our human nature is wounded, subject to ignorance, suffereing etc. There is a standing joke sometimes that says if something bad happens, like when my wife got a crack in her windshield the other day, we can laugh and say it is “because of original sin” that caused the crack. Joking aside, I have always wondered if we just were a bunch of holy people “walking with God”, that what happened to the windshield would not have happened. Would there be less sickness in the world? Do our bad actions that are caused by concupiscience start a ball rolling that cause other problems like floods, storms, accidents??? These things were not meantioned in the Genesis story of creation so I guess I concluded that these were the result of original sin.
mdcpensive1

 

[grannymh]

Thank you grannymh for your insight into my question. I always appreciate your thoughful comments as well as the others from my forum friends. The matter is that I agree with what you said as well as the others in the discussion. That must mean that I have used some wrong terminology or have a wrong assuption.

My assuption is maybe that I considered concupiscience to be the thing that came into our world from adam and eve which started (prime movement so to speak) things going wrong in our world. I may be confusing concupiscience with original sin? From yours and other statements, you seem to say that loss of original justice is a “condition” that is taken away by baptism only. I know that baptism does this, but as in the sacrament of reconciliation, we are forgiven but still have temporal punishment that must/should be expiated through penances to be done as justice for the one whom we offended if we don’t want to go through the cleansing that is purgatory.

So I guess my question is if we can reduce or rid ourselves of the temporal punishment for our sins can we reduce the effects of original sin in our lives by doing what negates temporal punishment? Do these same acts which reduce temporal punishment decrease our propensity for concupiscience?
mdcpensive1

Would it be possible to put your two questions on hold for a bit? They are

1. So I guess my question is if we can reduce or rid ourselves of the temporal punishment for our sins can we reduce the effects of Original Sin in our lives by doing what negates temporal punishment?

2.Do these same acts which reduce temporal punishment decrease our propensity for concupiscence?

I am impressed with your desire to do good to offset evil, to do penance for our personal sins, to make reparation for what others have done, and to do good for others because of love of Jesus. Thank you.

I think that if you make a general list of acts which reduce temporal punishment, it will be easier to answer your two questions and clear up a bit of confusion regarding concupiscence and Original Sin.

What I am learning from you is that it is possible to have multiple results from our individual actions. I have never really thought about the idea that doing penance can also help reduce our inclination or desire to sin which traditionally is referred to as concupiscence. It is like “two for the price of one”-- a real bargain.

If we can put your two questions on hold and instead start with some real life examples of actions, both external and internal like prayer, I believe it will be easier to sort out the effects of Original Sin. In addition, it may give us ideas of how to wrestle with concupiscence.

 

[mdcpensive1]

Would it be possible to put your two questions on hold for a bit? They are

1. So I guess my question is if we can reduce or rid ourselves of the temporal punishment for our sins can we reduce the effects of Original Sin in our lives by doing what negates temporal punishment?

2.Do these same acts which reduce temporal punishment decrease our propensity for concupiscence?

I am impressed with your desire to do good to offset evil, to do penance for our personal sins, to make reparation for what others have done, and to do good for others because of love of Jesus. Thank you.

I think that if you make a general list of acts which reduce temporal punishment, it will be easier to answer your two questions and clear up a bit of confusion regarding concupiscence and Original Sin.

What I am learning from you is that it is possible to have multiple results from our individual actions. I have never really thought about the idea that doing penance can also help reduce our inclination or desire to sin which traditionally is referred to as concupiscence. It is like “two for the price of one”-- a real bargain.

If we can put your two questions on hold and instead start with some real life examples of actions, both external and internal like prayer, I believe it will be easier to sort out the effects of Original Sin. In addition, it may give us ideas of how to wrestle with concupiscence.

I can put a hold on it. It may be the best thing in that you can never tell what insights may come to me or someone else when in Eucharistic adoration or prayer. I thought I knew what original sin was and how it worked. This is a humbling experience for me:shrug:

 

[mdcpensive1]

Thanks grannymh for your suggestion to wait a bit to reflect on the question.

After some thought I have come to realize I sometimes have used “original sin” to mean the “effects of original sin”. I know these are two different things. I apologize for any confusion I may have caused.

But I do think that we can counteract the effects of that sin, which are the tendencies to sin from concupiscience. St. Paul tells us to arm ourselves with armor to protect ourselves from sin. We do this by being cognisant of situations where we can practice virtues. We can look for more situations that prayer can be said. We can thank God for everything, good and bad that give us situations to receive His graces. We can fast from small things here and there. We can say more short prayers when doing things like walking out a door or putting on our shoes.

As we grow in His graces we build up a resistance to the temptations that concupiscence brings. We are growing in Holiness and “putting on Christ” so to speak. Theresa of Avila and John of the Cross are examples to me of what I should be doing. (notice anything carmelite?) I have to become stronger because there are forces out to bring me down. That is why I keep a holy card next to my desk at work, to remind me of who I say I am and what I am living for.

The acts of penance, works of mercy, the practice of virtue, prayer, establishing Christian communities, are the tools to fight concupiscience which to me is the reversing of the effects of original sin. They are also the things that bring glory to God and give us unity with Him. As I understand it, they are also the things that reduces any time in Purgatory.

But is this possible? Jesus did it. Mary did it. They both had free will and succeeded in their mission of doing Gods will. We may not have all the graces they had but as scripture says we have enough if we seek them out and use them. The more we do the more we will get.

I hope this explains things better now than what I attempted before.

mdcpensive1

 

[grannymh]

Thanks grannymh for your suggestion to wait a bit to reflect on the question.

After some thought I have come to realize I sometimes have used “original sin” to mean the “effects of original sin”. I know these are two different things. I apologize for any confusion I may have caused.

But I do think that we can counteract the effects of that sin, which are the tendencies to sin from concupiscience. St. Paul tells us to arm ourselves with armor to protect ourselves from sin. We do this by being cognisant of situations where we can practice virtues. We can look for more situations that prayer can be said. We can thank God for everything, good and bad that give us situations to receive His graces. We can fast from small things here and there. We can say more short prayers when doing things like walking out a door or putting on our shoes.

As we grow in His graces we build up a resistance to the temptations that concupiscence brings. We are growing in Holiness and “putting on Christ” so to speak. Theresa of Avila and John of the Cross are examples to me of what I should be doing. (notice anything carmelite?) I have to become stronger because there are forces out to bring me down. That is why I keep a holy card next to my desk at work, to remind me of who I say I am and what I am living for.

The acts of penance, works of mercy, the practice of virtue, prayer, establishing Christian communities, are the tools to fight concupiscience which to me is the reversing of the effects of original sin. They are also the things that bring glory to God and give us unity with Him. As I understand it, they are also the things that reduces any time in Purgatory.

But is this possible? Jesus did it. Mary did it. They both had free will and succeeded in their mission of doing Gods will. We may not have all the graces they had but as scripture says we have enough if we seek them out and use them. The more we do the more we will get.

I hope this explains things better now than what I attempted before.

mdcpensive1

This is the best reply. Thank you.

 

[Jerry-Jet]

The only way to reverse Original sin would be for God to reverse it by providing everyone sanctifying grace in the measure that was present before the fall of Adam and Eve.

God did this with Mary but that was a singular act–now God can do anything He wants to but I don’t think God will do that for anyone else.

The only people not subject to original sin are Jesus and Mary.

We cannot reverse ALL the effects of original sin by anything that we could do–only God could do that.

 

[thistle]

The only way to reverse Original sin would be for God to reverse it by providing everyone sanctifying grace in the measure that was present before the fall of Adam and Eve.

God did this with Mary but that was a singular act–now God can do anything He wants to but I don’t think God will do that for anyone else.

The only people not subject to original sin are Jesus and Mary.

We cannot reverse ALL the effects of original sin by anything that we could do–only God could do that.

I totally agree.

 

[fred_conty]

Since the sin of Adam and Eve there has been problems in our lives due to disordered tendencies which manifest themselves as disruptions in our social history. If we were to all practice charity and do penances that were offered for the effects of original sin, could we reverse the effects of original sin and help place us back near the time when we had God’s original graces. I know that penances are for merit and I also know that this is not a way of obtaining salvation through works. But can we reverse the bad things happening today by countering the evil that has been done at least on the human level??

I know that salvation is only by the grace of God, but is it humanly possible to reverse the damages of original sin that has hurt us over time?? Maybe I am thinking of a limited atonement using what is humanly acceptable to God.

I also am NOT thinking this would bring back preternatural gifts, but just to give our cultures to work with more graces since we would not be dealing with so many disordered problems.

I hope to use the comments for items of contemplation before the Eucharist.

I think your idea is noble but not possible.

Mary did say to us in so many words, that sinners are going to hell because there is noone to pray for them. So we can certainly do our part there.

God also allows the good to suffer for their own sakes in order that they may lay up treasures in heaven where they will last forever. So God does use evil to our advantage. He just does everything to our advantage. That is why we shold love him in everything.

I think it would be a first class miracle if we could get most people to church on Sunday.
Or get them to forgive their greviences against their in-laws.
Or get over predjudices of all kinds.
Or quite overindulging.
Or …or … or … and so much more.

Adam and Eve sinned, and they had everything going for them, preternatural gifts, supernatural gifts, natural gifts and talent, and look what happened. The sacraments are made to help us to overcome ourselves and strengthen us. This is “sort of” reversing original sin.

If we could promote this, then the world would be a better place. That is what Jesus thought too, “go teach all nations…” about the goodnews. This also means the goodnews taught by our own example.

I believe it was St. Augustine who said about original sin, “O happy sin.” Because this sin was the reason that Jesus became “one with us”, Emmanuel. He sharred our humanity that he should make us one with him. We now have him in an intimate way, the holy Eucharist. How can we ever express our gratitude!

Just a thought.

 

[mdcpensive1]

The only way to reverse Original sin would be for God to reverse it by providing everyone sanctifying grace in the measure that was present before the fall of Adam and Eve.

God did this with Mary but that was a singular act–now God can do anything He wants to but I don’t think God will do that for anyone else.

The only people not subject to original sin are Jesus and Mary.

We cannot reverse ALL the effects of original sin by anything that we could do–only God could do that.

It seems to me that when we do acts of charity and penances etc, we reduce our tendencies to concupiscience by having grace in our life. I am not saying that we can totally reverse the problems caused by original sin, but we can negate it’s effects.
Your reply makes sense to me if you mean that we can get rid of all of it (Jesus and Mary). I know we cannot because all do not react to the graces God gives us.
mdcpensive1