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Matt241
Guest
I’d like to read people’s opinions on this world-wide survey of the Traditional Rite. Is this cause for concern?
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I’d like to read people’s opinions on this world-wide survey of the Traditional Rite. Is this cause for concern?
I suppose I don’t really understand why a survey of this type is necessary. Things are going well with making the Traditional Latin Mass available to the faithful, and I certainly hope it stays that way.
If the TLM is not as attractive to African or Asian Catholics, it could well be that it resonates more with speakers of Romance or Germanic languages, or that it speaks to a uniquely European cultural identity. The Pope should well understand this — Argentina is one of the most self-consciously European countries in the world, location notwithstanding.
Rome might well wish to consider also the many vocations that are coming from Latin Mass adherents.
If the TLM is not as attractive to African or Asian Catholics, it could well be that it resonates more with speakers of Romance or Germanic languages, or that it speaks to a uniquely European cultural identity. The Pope should well understand this — Argentina is one of the most self-consciously European countries in the world, location notwithstanding.
Rome might well wish to consider also the many vocations that are coming from Latin Mass adherents.
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otjm
Guest
The article appears to be well balanced, with comments and positions on both sides of the matter.
I have used two sources of information as to Masses in the US, Canada, Guam and Puerto Rico. I do not know if they are updated regularly, but the information appears to indicate that in the US, the EF has achieved or is very close to stasis; meaning that it is not given to any serious growth. At last count there were a shade under 3% of parishes with any EF Mass; that included those parishes which were EF Parishes, all the way down to one which was listed as having the EF once every 6 months.
A parish a few miles from me has an EF Mass on Sunday morning at 6:30 a.m. It also has 10 other weekend Masses and there are something over 3,000 families in the parish; additionally it draws outside the parish boundaries for at least one community - the Vietnamese. There are about 75 people on average who attend the EF. all of which has nothing in particular to add to the article other than that attendance is slim.
As to cause for concern, that is well beyond my pay grade.
I have used two sources of information as to Masses in the US, Canada, Guam and Puerto Rico. I do not know if they are updated regularly, but the information appears to indicate that in the US, the EF has achieved or is very close to stasis; meaning that it is not given to any serious growth. At last count there were a shade under 3% of parishes with any EF Mass; that included those parishes which were EF Parishes, all the way down to one which was listed as having the EF once every 6 months.
A parish a few miles from me has an EF Mass on Sunday morning at 6:30 a.m. It also has 10 other weekend Masses and there are something over 3,000 families in the parish; additionally it draws outside the parish boundaries for at least one community - the Vietnamese. There are about 75 people on average who attend the EF. all of which has nothing in particular to add to the article other than that attendance is slim.
As to cause for concern, that is well beyond my pay grade.
Tis_Bearself
Patron
I see no cause for concern. It’s reasonable for the Pope at his point to want to collect some information on how EF Masses are coming along 10+ years after Summorum Pontificorum. Who knows, he may decide to promote them more widely based on the survey results. He’s certainly aware they are very popular with a significant group of committed Catholics.
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Tis_Bearself
Patron
It’s always going to be something of a specialty item, but there are a lot of Catholics who have never had and cannot reasonably get the chance to experience it to see if they like it, because it’s simply not available most places. Diocesan priests are for the most part not trained to say it and don’t have much interest in saying it on top of all their other responsibilities.
I’m not saying if it was available, the majority of Catholics would flock there, but the “stasis” you speak of in USA is very likely caused in part by the fact that trained, interested priests are not available to say the Masses. I reckon that the percentage could at least make it up into the double digits if they were.
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StudentMI
Guest
Around here the Latin Mass parishes seem to be growing and are very popular. I wouldn’t describe that as stasis.
Tis_Bearself
Patron
One also has to publicize the Masses to people who might attend. I know that until the Archdiocese here established a Latin Mass parish, it was a chore just trying to find where a Latin Mass might be on a given Sunday. There was a website but it was not kept up very well. I presume there were also e-mail lists and forums somewhere for the very committed, but for someone like me who is not going to be going to TLM every weekend but does want to go a few times a year, and is deluged constantly with other e-mails, the information was hard to find unless I stumbled on it via a flyer or a random Internet post.
Much easier to find the Latin Mass when it’s at Parish X at time Y every Sunday.
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Margaret_Ann
Guest
+Lefebvre was a Holy Ghost Father and missionary in Africa. He eventually became Apostolic Delegate in Africa under Pius XII.
IIRC, he said that the Latin language helped unify the people in worship. It wasn’t this or that language which might cause division between one group and another.
I posted on another thread about how my parish had language issues re English, Ukrainian and Slavonic. Even when I go to our cathedral, I wish there was more English, especially during the homily.
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choose_to_love
Guest
“(i)s this cause for concern” IMO, almost certainly, if you think the EF should continue under Summorum Pontificum, although that opinion is not based on much, really. I think Mr. Shaw, who is quoted in the article, is wisely taking a position that assumes a charitable interpretation. It is just a really curious time to look into this, given all that is going on, and what it seems the bishops should be concentrating on, but on the other hand, maybe the bishops have some time on their hands to consider the questions.
Well, I hope not. Pope Francis has actually been pretty good to us where the TLM is concerned. His approach reminds me a lot of Bishop Walter Sullivan of Richmond (Virginia), who was wide-open to every theological stripe imaginable — including the traditionalists in his diocese. He was very generous in making the TLM available in Richmond, more generous than he had to be, per regulations at that time. Any bishop who would serve hot dogs and soda to the homeless in celebration of his having been consecrated couldn’t be all bad. Requiescat in pace.
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johnnykins
Guest
My only concern is the question of whether celebrations of the old rite “respond to a true pastoral need or is it promoted by a single priest”
That strikes me as a false dichotomy. A single priest can most certainly respond to a a true pastoral pastoral need. Why would Rome think it might be otherwise? Alternatively, a single priest can be a true instrument of God gathering the faithful to him and to Him, cf Francis of Assisi (Ok he was only a brother), Ignatius of Loyola, Dominic, Augustine, Kolbe, etc., etc. Why be concerned about a single priest doing God’s work? That question, on its face, is disturbing.
That strikes me as a false dichotomy. A single priest can most certainly respond to a a true pastoral pastoral need. Why would Rome think it might be otherwise? Alternatively, a single priest can be a true instrument of God gathering the faithful to him and to Him, cf Francis of Assisi (Ok he was only a brother), Ignatius of Loyola, Dominic, Augustine, Kolbe, etc., etc. Why be concerned about a single priest doing God’s work? That question, on its face, is disturbing.
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A single priest “responds to a true pastoral need” every time he offers the Most Holy Sacrifice of the Mass — whether there are other people there or not. The world needs the graces of the Mass more than it needs anything else in all of creation.
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InThePew
Guest
In my diocese, there is one priest who is responsible for ministering to the TLM community (another priest also says the EF mass but only for his parish) and he says mass for groups in about three or four different parts of the diocese. In that sense, it is promoted (effectively) by a single priest. However, I believe what the question is getting at is personality cults that can develop around particular priests. In other words, situations where there’s no significant devotion to the TLM except for one priest and his bad of followers.
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StudentMI
Guest
Heck that can happen around any priest. I’ve seen it time and time again in the Church and I’ve only been confirmed since 2013!
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OraLabora
Guest
Africa is the hot spot for vocations these days. We have many young African francophone priests filling the void in Québec. As far as I can tell, almost all from an Ordinary Form background. I don’t think Asia is doing so bad either.
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otjm
Guest
Much of that issue could be part of the inquiry from the Vatican. I see lots of anecdotal information with no facts (like a head count). It appears that Rome may want that information; and we can all sit back and see what comes of that, if anything.
There is still a process in place to request the EF; I have heard nothing either of a parish, or a group of parishes banding together to apply - or for that matter, applying and being turned down. Most of the parishes which have the EF, according to Ecclesia Dei appear to be in larger cities, so, yes, I can understand that when one gets farther away from big cities, the EF is effectively not available; but that does not preclude anyone making an attempt to organize a stable group and apply.
My experience, considering that it is on the West Coast, is not necessarily indicative of the rest of the US.
Just found this in Wikipedia:HomeschoolDad:
Africa is the hot spot for vocations these days. We have many young African francophone priests filling the void in Québec. As far as I can tell, almost all from an Ordinary Form background. I don’t think Asia is doing so bad either.
A huge Catholic union right in the middle of Africa. Such a beautiful concept that I struggle to find words to describe it.
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eobrien
Guest
Most of the evangelization of the entire world was done with the TLM, including Africa under Archbishop Lefebvre. I don’t think we can say the NO is better or more preferable for places like Africa; it’s that the current generation has only known the NO.
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gracepoole
Guest
This is already being discussed here:
Vatican Survey on Summorum Pontificum Sent to the Bishops of the World Catholic News
@camoderator, can these threads be merged?
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Vico
Guest
The survey pertains to the Missale Romanum of 1962, but will not include use of earlier versions before 1962, without approval. The survey is an extraordinary form Mass survey.
From 2007 Summorum Pontificum:
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