Review of the "Old Rite"

[eobrien]

Ok, well then I don’t see much of a point in discussing this anymore. If you don’t even have enough of an interest in Western liturgy to read about it, then I don’t know why I should dismiss all of my own research into it, including the thesis on the liturgy I wrote in college, in favor of what you’re saying.

 

[Jbrady]

Not trying to put words in anyone’s mouth, indeed, I would welcome (name removed by moderator)ut from faithful non-Westerner Catholics along these lines.

Here’s something to chew on: there aren’t many non-Western countries where the local Catholic Church is self-sufficient, and not heavily dependent on Western, principally American and German, Dollars and Euros.

Even the Church in well-off Denmark depends on subsidies from Germany.

Without subsidies from the Western countries, and especially the US and Germany, the local Churches in sub-Saharan Africa would evaporate, and its members scatter to the well-funded Evangelical, Pentecostal, Mormon and Muslim groups. Religion in sub-Saharan Africa is a battlefield, and the principle weapon is cash.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

HomeschoolDad:

Not trying to put words in anyone’s mouth, indeed, I would welcome (name removed by moderator)ut from faithful non-Westerner Catholics along these lines.

Here’s something to chew on: there aren’t many non-Western countries where the local Catholic Church is self-sufficient, and not heavily dependent on Western, principally American and German, Dollars and Euros.

Even the Church in well-off Denmark depends on subsidies from Germany.

Without subsidies from the Western countries, and especially the US and Germany, the local Churches in sub-Saharan Africa would evaporate, and its members scatter to the well-funded Evangelical, Pentecostal, Mormon and Muslim groups. Religion in sub-Saharan Africa is a battlefield, and the principle weapon is cash.

I did not know this. I don’t know how to say this without sounding snide — that is totally not my intent — but it makes me feel a little less bad about accepting so many priests from these countries, because outside of traditionalist circles, for some reason the vocations just aren’t there in sufficient numbers to staff our parishes. Add to that, many native-born American priests are elderly.

I brought this up some time back on the forums, and got some major blowback on account of it, but contraception is what has largely killed vocations in this country. Marriage where you can custom-tailor your family, in an almost-foolproof manner, have a manageable number of children in the quantities and timing desired, then “call it quits”, makes matrimony an easier and more desirable proposition. Without this, I think a not-inconsiderable number of young Catholics might well say “you know, marriage is just too hard, too much of an obligation to take on, having all those kids to raise, I think I’ll offer myself to the Church as a priest or religious instead”. That line of reasoning, if indeed people actually do that (and I’d be willing to bet some do), is perfectly logical and sensible.

 

[Jbrady]

I brought this up some time back on the forums, and got some major blowback on account of it, but contraception is what has largely killed vocations in this country.

Gotta disagree there. The closing of minor seminaries had a much bigger effect. Also. it kind of cheapens the vocation if it becomes little more than the only viable option a poor child from a large family has because the family is unable to provide any more options. A lot of the priests who finished seminary before Vatican II were in this class, and quality was often lacking.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

HomeschoolDad:

I brought this up some time back on the forums, and got some major blowback on account of it, but contraception is what has largely killed vocations in this country.

Gotta disagree there. The closing of minor seminaries had a much bigger effect.

Large segments of our society today, both Catholic and non-Catholic, would recoil at the idea of guiding early high school-aged boys into the priesthood. The contemporary idea is that a young man is supposed to consider all alternatives, to date, to have relationships, and to have some experience in the larger secular world, before he makes a decision like that. I discerned the priesthood for a couple of years while in undergraduate school, and I did not date, and kept any female friendships strictly platonic, precisely to keep my mind and heart clear and focused solely on God and the possible future service to His Church. Finally I “just couldn’t do it” but I think my period of discernment was much purer and less complicated, than it would have been, if I had been in relationships. And those platonic friendships were rich friendships indeed.

I didn’t say anything about poor boys from large families being guided to the priesthood, but I see what you mean. I do, however, stick to my assertion that if future marriage were foreseen to be harder than it is when contraception is employed — the possibility of surprise pregnancy, longer periods of abstinence than anyone wishes to consider (possibly even the remainder of a wife’s fertile years, if she simply cannot consider getting pregnant again after X number of children), and the difficulties of raising large families — then the priestly/religious life begins to look like a more attractive option. Some dislike the notion of having “mixed motives” for a vocation — “oh, no, it must be an absolutely pure and absolutely free choice, uninfluenced by anything other than the sheer love of God” — but oftentimes, Almighty God makes His Will known through circumstances, and not always clear-cut, neat and precise circumstances. Just as it could very well be, that failure to meet the demands of seminary and convent life could mean one is called to marriage and life in the secular world instead, so it could be that failure in secular life, possibly even failure to find a suitable mate, could mean that Our Lord has other plans for that person, better and higher plans.

 

[Jbrady]

so it could be that failure in secular life, possibly even failure to find a suitable mate, could mean that Our Lord has other plans for that person, better and higher plans.

I think you need to think this one over.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

HomeschoolDad:

so it could be that failure in secular life, possibly even failure to find a suitable mate, could mean that Our Lord has other plans for that person, better and higher plans.

I think you need to think this one over.

I said could.

How can we say that Our Lord couldn’t possibly allow someone to fail in secular life, or being a bit more gentle about it, bring them to realize something like “son, secular life doesn’t seem to be working out for you, have you ever considered that you’re ‘barking up the wrong tree’, and that God might have other plans for your life, something that deep in your heart of hearts, you know you should at least pursue and see if it’s right for you”?

Or does it always have to be “your life is chugging right along, you’re happy, you’re doing well, you could go along like this for the rest of your life and it would be good, but at the end of the day, it feels like something is missing, maybe that ‘something’ is a higher and better calling”?

Sometimes God calls us to a state of life through misfortune and loss. Someone who is suddenly widowed, or who is left handicapped by an accident, is “called” to a vocation to which they certainly didn’t aspire, and which was the farthest thing from their mind, when they woke up that morning.

 

[poche]

Yes, but who and where? The main reason that there is no united Arabic single country is that there are too many kings and potentates who would want to be in charge.

 

[InThePew]

Large segments of our society today, both Catholic and non-Catholic, would recoil at the idea of guiding early high school-aged boys into the priesthood. The contemporary idea is that a young man is supposed to consider all alternatives, to date, to have relationships, and to have some experience in the larger secular world, before he makes a decision like that.

The contemporary idea has a lot going for it. The traditional idea was to get them young before they had a chance to be exposed to the corrupting influences of the world. Of course, the problem was, that was the same world in which they would be expected to minister as priests! You’re earlier point about contraception has more than bit of truth to it - Catholic families having fewer children results in a diminished pool of “talent” from which propositive priests can be drawn.

there aren’t many non-Western countries where the local Catholic Church is self-sufficient, and not heavily dependent on Western, principally American and German, Dollars and Euros.

Indirectly, yes. The money is primarily delivered through aid programs and scholarships for advanced studies on the part of priests and religious. The problem however, is that these countries have been seen as happy hunting grounds for seminarians at the cost of home-grown vocations. Now of course, Covid-19 means that such sources aren’t nearly as accessible as they once were and so it’s time for dioceses to wake up, smell the coffee and actually look at what they can do to foster home-grown vocations

 

[HomeschoolDad]

Yes, but who and where? The main reason that there is no united Arabic single country is that there are too many kings and potentates who would want to be in charge.

How did Arabs get involved in this? I was talking about black Romance-speaking states in central Africa, many of which have large numbers of Catholics.

Short answer, I don’t know. Any federation (unless it is one hammered together by force, such as the ex-USSR) is going to have conflicts over “who will run the show”. The early colonial United States had a north-south divide, and even today, broadly speaking, there is a divide between large liberal metropolitan areas and conservative rural areas and small towns. The situation in the European Union (a largely artificial construct) is maddening — Germany would like to run the show, but let’s just say that didn’t work out so well in the last century, and non-Germans have an entirely understandable visceral response to that proposition.

Catholic monarchy is a nice, romantic sentiment, but you would have to have a complete change in mindset, loyal subjects willing to be ruled (not just “led” — monarchs are rulers, not leaders, just as Christ rules His Church, He does not “lead” it) by a benevolent monarch who realizes that his salvation depends on how he rules his subjects.

HomeschoolDad:

Large segments of our society today, both Catholic and non-Catholic, would recoil at the idea of guiding early high school-aged boys into the priesthood. The contemporary idea is that a young man is supposed to consider all alternatives, to date, to have relationships, and to have some experience in the larger secular world, before he makes a decision like that.

The contemporary idea has a lot going for it. The traditional idea was to get them young before they had a chance to be exposed to the corrupting influences of the world. Of course, the problem was, that was the same world in which they would be expected to minister as priests!

I have also wondered if the traditional idea was to guide the boys’ hearts and minds into the priesthood, and to tamp down any notions of ever wanting to marry, have a family, and work in the secular world — as well as to try to “tamp down” the biological and emotional realities that any normal young man faces. Not sure the latter worked so well.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

You’re earlier point about contraception has more than bit of truth to it - Catholic families having fewer children results in a diminished pool of “talent” from which propositive priests can be drawn.

Yes, that, and also what I think is the very real idea that marriage, with one, two, or possibly three children, both spouses working in satisfying careers, living “the good life” (in the world’s eyes), nice big home, plenty of money in the bank, having those children only when you want them and not a moment sooner, in the quantities desired, is a more attractive proposition, than surrendering to what might be either unbridled fertility — NFP doesn’t always work, and “back in the day”, the rhythm method was horribly unreliable — or prolonged periods of unchosen abstinence.

I have noticed that religious, and to a lesser extent priests, tend to be very long-lived, and not to be crude, but they generally age well, you can tell just by looking at them, that they have not had materially difficult lives — they have satisfying “careers” (so to speak), they get an education (sometimes a very good one, bachelor’s and master’s), they don’t have to worry about the needs of a family, they can’t be fired, their basic temporal needs are provided for life. Sounds pretty good to me!

And from a spiritual standpoint, it can’t be ignored that religious life is intended to make it easier to save one’s soul. By contrast, it is harder for priests to save their souls, because they are responsible for leading their flocks to heaven, and have to deal more directly with the secular world, whereas many religious “live in a bubble” and only have to worry about their own salvation.

 

[dochawk]

Ok, well then I don’t see much of a point in discussing this anymore. If you don’t even have enough of an interest in Western liturgy to read about it, then I don’t know why I should dismiss all of my own research into it, including the thesis on the liturgy I wrote in college, in favor of what you’re saying.

Correct.

I’ll stick with what I’ve learned from canon lawyers, church historians, and theologians, rather than what I presume is an undergraduate thesis (for that matter, for even a Ph.D. dissertation, I’d need to see that someone had been promoted to Associate Professor before their own research had enough weight to question what I’ve learned from my own sources).

In the distant past, I wrote an undergraduate thesis. I’ve also supervised undergraduate research. I understand both what it is and isn’t.

Asking someone to read particular books that you believe support your position is really a bit much . . .

I’m currently working on The First Thousand Years, and have too much byzantine and other theology in my reading queue right now

I think you need to think this one over.

Why? Excessive conformity with current RC thought and practice??

He’s right.

The first time I was seriously contemplating the RC priesthood, I fell in love and nearly married. The second time I did marry.

I now have four children and six grand children–with only the first of nine married.

Of course, had I fallen into Melkite clutches, err, discovered the east ten years earlier, things might have turned out differently . . .

 

[Aulef]

A survey like this is important. I just pray that they use the results in favor of the Holy Church

 

[eobrien]

You can make whatever assumptions you want. Apparently you assume I have not consulted works by Church historians. The reason I recommend Msgr Gamber is because he addresses some of your specific claims, is considered a very reliable liturgical historian, and the forward to his book was written by then-Cardinal Ratzinger. I’m not sure why a Canon lawyer would be someone to consult on liturgical history, though.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

Jbrady:

I think you need to think this one over.

Why? Excessive conformity with current RC thought and practice??

He’s right.

The first time I was seriously contemplating the RC priesthood, I fell in love and nearly married. The second time I did marry.

I now have four children and six grand children–with only the first of nine married.

Of course, had I fallen into Melkite clutches, err, discovered the east ten years earlier, things might have turned out differently . . .

God love you, DocVegas Thanks for the vote of confidence. People have been doing things from mixed motives from the dawn of time — and that is not always a bad thing. Very often, “God writes straight with crooked lines”.

Who am I to tell Almighty God that the kick in the pants I got because of thus-and-so was not His Voice telling me to do something else that would give greater glory to Him?

 

[dochawk]

You can make whatever assumptions you want. Apparently you assume I have not consulted works by Church historians.

IOW, you have no comprehension of what I wrote.

No, there was no such assumption.

As I wrote, I’m familiar with such research.

I simply haven’t read your preferred book on something related to the topic, and am not replacing my reading priorities with it.

I’m not sure why a Canon lawyer would be someone to consult on liturgical history, though.

again, it was part of the list of those participating, not a free-standing piece.

In all seriousness, this is the difference between doctoral level discussion (which I participate in outside of my fields), and undergraduate level.

And with this, I"m done.

Very often, “God writes straight with crooked lines”.

And, “if you want to hear God laugh, tell him your plans.”

He’s sure gotten a kick out of some of mine (says the guy drafted to teach fifth grade in his kid’s Catholic school . . .)

 

[Margaret_Ann]

That’s horrible!

 

[HomeschoolDad]

That’s horrible!

Mega-dittos to that.

I would stay in a parish like that all of about five minutes.

Word to the wise — if you have to move, check out the parish where you’ll be moving. You might select your neighborhood or suburb accordingly. And if you are so unfortunate as to have to make a parish such as this your territorial parish, make sure you have an orthodox, magisterially loyal, liturgically sound parish you can attend instead, even if it’s a bit of a drive.

I had the misfortune to end up in a parish where they make it virtually impossible to receive communion from the priest or deacon — the pastor will abruptly switch lines in the middle of distributing — and even worse, the pastor has no problem giving communion to those divorced and “remarried” without annulments. I drive downtown to another more traditional, orthodox parish rather than go there.

 

[OraLabora]

Where I live there are no egregious liturgical “sins” like stpurl stated.

What there is though, is rather indifferent and soppy music (in French… it is not a disease limited to Americans it would seem).

So I drive 40 minutes every Sunday to go to Mass at the Benedictine abbey where I’m an oblate. The Gregorian chant, expertly sung, does it for me. I much prefer the Ordinary Form Mass, and as a bonus it’s an OF Mass too. It is in fact as living, breathing example of the changes desired by Sacrosanctum Concilium, and of fidelity the new Roman Missal and the 1974 Graduale Romanum, as you can find anywhere, including appropriate use of both Latin (and Greek) and the vernacular (in this instance, French). Moreover the monks are both doctrinally orthodox, but also pastorally welcoming to anyone who enters (it is in fact part of the Benedictine charism) and have saved many a lost soul and steered many an addict to the appropriate resources. I also work there on Wednesdays as a volunteer librarian.

Meanwhile our choir (of which both myself and the choirmaster are oblates), do our best to export a bit of that to our parishes on a monthly basis. We even have our groupies (!) that arrange to be at the same Mass where we are singing.

Alas the pandemic has put the kibosh on both activities: the abbey is closed to outsiders and confinement means we can’t even meet to rehearse. I myself have not been very active this season before lockdown, first for some minor health ennuis, then because of a 1-month long working retreat at the abbey, which was followed by lock-down.

 

[stpurl]

Well I am glad you have opportunities. Some of us don’t. I’ll never get back the 6 years of liturgical torment and abuse in my last parish. I would have rejoiced at being ‘legally’ freed from my Sunday Mass obligation there!

In a way, since it’s ‘behind’ me now, I feel less personally ‘bashed’ if you will; the many times I was told that the problem wasn’t the abuse, it was my attitude, the times I was mocked because cataracts keep me from driving, etc. I feel more empathy for the people who are still suffering but even that still gets the vitriol from the self-righteous (no, not you, Ora, I’m not referring to any given poster in particular but just making a generalization of certain tones over a period of years).

I do find an attitude of “shoot the messenger” or ‘blame the victim’ when it comes to people daring to do anything but toe the party line regarding certain people or certain things. There are definitely sacred cows around here. The funny thing is how different they are from the ‘sacred cows’ of 10 or 15 years ago. Oh well. Autre temps, autre mores. . .