Review of the "Old Rite"

[godisgood77]

My only concern is the question of whether celebrations of the old rite “respond to a true pastoral need or is it promoted by a single priest

This question caught my eye too, but the reason may be different…

Summorum Pontificum was meant to be a way for the Church to respond to places where a stable group of parishioners desired it. It was not meant to be a way for a priest or group of clerics to push their liturgical style preferences. Nor was it intended to create divisions or tribes where one identifies as a TLM Catholic… SP was an incredible act of charity in the part of Benedict XVI.

Benedict always envisioned that the cautious reintroduction of the Extraordinary Form would be monitored. In fact, he said that he hoped that the two forms of the Roman Rite would enrich each other. Seems like Pope Francis is simply trying to figure out how it’s going… Which seems prudent as some prelates have been pushing the EF and claiming its superiority over the OF… which of course is a problem

 

[ThomasMT]

If I had more time I would devote it to Spanish, as that need is, by far, both fast-growing and ubiquitous across the state.

All the more reason to focus interest on the universality of latin.

 

[Peeps]

But he says the OF.

But that priest is NOT saying the Ordinary Form of the Mass.

He’s making up his own version of the Mass. Just because it’s in the vernacular does not mean that it’s the OF Mass. It’s “Father ____'s Mass.”

And it wasn’t the “OF Mass” that is allowing hiim to do this. I suggest that if the Latin Mass were the only Mass around, this priest would not follow the rubrics for this Mass, either, but would do his own thing. That’s what Martin Luther did.

What has your diocese done about this? Is there a group of people who are speaking with the diocese and the bishop to admonish this priest to follow the rubrics? Or is the diocese corrupt, too?

 

[Peeps]

And this was a situation I totally understood as it had occurred with other family members who had suffered in youth, and then as teens and young adults completely broke with the faith as they simply could not trust ‘the whole thing’ with so many examples of priests especially, but also of other people like religious ed teachers, who kept constantly denying aspects of the faith.

Do you think this never happened when the Latin Mass was the sole Mass in the United States?

I grew up with hundreds, actually thousands of people who left the Catholic Church and joined the Protestants, especially the Evangelical Protestants (my church)! The Latin Mass certainly didn’t keep them Catholic.

There have always been people who leave the Catholic Church for many reasons. If you think that a Latin Mass will hold onto people who are abused by priests or laypeople in their parish, or people who have become convinced that Evangelical Protestantism is “true Christianity,” or people who can’t accept Catholic teaching about same-sex marriage, or people who disagree with anti-abortion policy because they disagree with anything that takes life and the Catholic Church doesn’t–

–it’s not the Latin Mass that will bring these people back to Catholicism. It’s the work of the Holy Spirit and much prayer from those who mourn the empty pews.

 

[OraLabora]

There are other opportunities as well if one is willing to expands one’s horizons. In Montreal, Mary Queen of the World cathedral, St. Joseph’s Oratory, and Notre-Dame basilica all have excellent choirs though non-Gregorian. And in the vernacular. Sainte-Marie-des-Deux Montagnes abbey (Benedictine Nuns), in the northwestern suburbs, has the OF Mass entirely in Latin and Gregorian chant (as well as the Divine Office in Latin according to the orignal Benedictine schema). The Carmelite nuns in central Montreal, I am told, have a very nice, orthodox Mass. Plus there are some amateur groups offering Gregorian Chant. Sunday Vespers is offered at St-Leon in Westmount in Gregorian chant, according to the modern Liturgy of the Hours, from fall to spring.

So really if one digs around, and is not married exclusively to Gregorian chant, there are plenty of good choices in Montreal which after all was the heart of Canadian Catholicism for much of Canada’s history.

 

[phil19034]

Is this cause for concern?

I know some have concerns about this because it asks open ended questions, and a Bishop who doesn’t like it can write something negative.

HOWEVER, my gut tells me the following:

I think Pope Francis is considering the possibility of splitting the Extraordinary Form into its own Ordinariate.

Pope Francis expanded the ability for Catholics to attend the Anglican Ordinariate, and I would not be surprised if he decides to create an Ordinariate for the Latin Mass.

 

[phil19034]

My only concern is the question of whether celebrations of the old rite “respond to a true pastoral need or is it promoted by a single priest”

I actually know a priest who did this.

He was the pastor of a parish with two churches, with one assistant priest.

He loved the Latin Mass and decided to offer it before knowing he had an interested flock on Saturday nights (he used the Sunday liturgy)

Because of the daily masses already offered on Saturday and the OF mass, he had to bring in a "floater priest each Saturday evening to pray the 5PM mass in the ordinary form, while he celebrated the Extraordinary Form at 6:30ish

There were usually, on 20-30 people or so at mass. He also changed the Wednesday daily mass to Latin too.

My point: he had to bring in a third priest each Saturday in order to pray the Latin mass for approx 20-30 people.

From what I understood from him, he did all of this on his own, without the support of the Diocese. Now, the diocese did not fight him on it, but they didn’t support him enough to allow him to offer the mass on Sundays (which would have attracted more people)

Anyway: I think the point of the question is this: is the Latin mass offering a response to the wish of the people, or is it being done because the priest wants to offer it?

 

[stpurl]

in Montreal. There is the answer. In Montreal. And probably for someone who can drive.

I am not finding fault with the idea that options exist; however, the fact that there might be several places for a person who has access to a car/driver (assuming that person is willing to do the driving) does not help the people who do not have cars or drivers.

And let’s talk about parishes. So suppose Joe or Jane in their 30s find a lovely parish, nice area, other good parishes nearby. Joe and Jane settle in. 20 years later Joe dies. Jane’s children have married and moved away. Jane has cataracts. She can get around in her rural area in the home they’ve paid off to a great extent and work in a place that’s within walking distance.

But the new priest assigned goes off the rails. Most of the people love it (there had always been grumblers about the prior priests being old stick in the muds). The bishop is too busy to make visits, the new priest has ‘connections’, and any complaints are outweighed by people who ‘love’ the new priest.

Jane is not alone, but of the few who are upset, some leave the faith entirely, and some just ‘grit their teeth’, or are in Jane’s situation where they just can’t get to another parish.

I think that one of the things that seems so petty ‘now’ is going to be a cornerstone for reform. The older, the ‘traditional’, the currently either voiceless or vilified, have been praying all along. Those prayers will bear fruit. But also the situation has to be put ‘out there’ so that others will never be able to say, “We never knew of the problems that existed for people. We never knew how many. We never wanted to know”.

 

[OraLabora]

in Montreal. There is the answer. In Montreal. And probably for someone who can drive.

I would think that many large cities in the US or Canada, with large Catholic populations, there are many options. For instance Vancouver has Westminster Abbey, and there are religious houses in Toronto as well.

For all the options I pointed out in Montreal, all are reachable by public transit. The Oratory by bus and subway; the cathedral and basilica are right downtown and accessible by subway and a very short walk; the Westmount Vespers by subway and a short walk, the Carmelite abbey reachable by subway and a short walk, and the women’s abbey is at the end of a 19-mile commuter rail line which is being converted into a high-frequency light rail line and a half-hour walk. Anybody living on the Island of Montreal, and the north and south suburbs, would have easy access by public transit. And that access is going to improve soon with the construction of a 69 km of a new light rail line presently under construction.

 

[stpurl]

Right. The US is a little different. Amtrak isn’t even running many of its routes right now.

Of course one will say (I’m surprised it hasn’t been said already) that “having the TLM in more places won’t help those people who can’t get around to it”. And they’re probably right. Jane (and the others) who are trapped and immobile won’t benefit it within ‘driving distance’ there is a TLM. . . Unless there is more help ‘within’ the TLM community.

One of the ways I see mutual benefit of the EF and OF would have to do with one —or the other—offering more community.

We always hear how the OF is either really big on community, or really ‘not’ (people leaving early, nobody greeting anybody, etc), or how the EF is really big on community or not.

Let’s see which one truly is when we have more examples from each available.

 

[johnnykins]

The problem with the question is not that Rome is looking at the EF or reviewing SP; it’s the question itself as phrased. It’s problematic as it sets up a dichotomy that may not be there at all, but by its structure implies is there.

It looks like it’s either very poorly designed or intentionally pushing an agenda against the EF - hence the issue. That is, it appears not to be seeking information (which it may be if only poorly designed); it looks as if its trying to support an agenda which will probably backfire, IMHO.

 

[godisgood77]

it’s the question itself as phrased.

I believe the question is correct in how it is being asked. There are priests and bishops who have publicly said the EF is superior to the OF. There has been an active push by some prelates for the EF. This is not what Pope Benedict intended with Summorum Pontificum.

Here is what the Pope Emeritus said on 12, 2008 when asked this question: “What do you say to those who, in France, fear that the Motu Proprio Summorum Pontificum signals a step backwards from the great insights of the Second Vatican Council? How can you reassure them?”

Benedict responded: “Their fear is unfounded, for this Motu Proprio is merely an act of tolerance, with a pastoral aim, for those people who were brought up with this liturgy, who love it, are familiar with it and want to live with this liturgy”

SP was intended to respond to parishioners who are attached to the liturgical style of the EF, not encourage clergy to campaign for expansion of EF

 

[OraLabora]

We always hear how the OF is either really big on community, or really ‘not’ (people leaving early, nobody greeting anybody, etc), or how the EF is really big on community or not.

My experience, entirely OF based, is that it is dependant on the community. In the three churches (former parishes) of my pastoral unit, the largest is as I remember it as a kid: upon entering it is a very hushed quiet, with just the sound of arriving faithful clinking a coin in the misallette donation box and shuffling to their pews. This is the parish btw of one of Canada’s recent former Prime Ministers, and yes we’d see him when he was at home. Then 15 min before Mass the beautiful bells peal.

Down the road in the next village 20 km away, pre-Mass is a noisy mayhem, literally social hour. The third church, across town from the first, is smaller and both the francophone and anglophone Masses are more social, but less exuberant than the second church. Folks clearly know each other and do greet one another, but discretely.

So it really seems based on the community and not so much on the liturgy!

Our abbey of course attracts folks from many parishes, and most seem to respect the signs that say “silence!”. But a few don’t, and the acoustics are excellent so even a whisper annoys. I’ve more than once told folks to hush up before Mass. Now generally just do my pre-Mass prayers in the Blessed Sacrament chapel which is almost always very quiet.

 

[phil19034]

The more I think about it, the more I think Pope Francis is considering an ordinariate.

St. Pope John Paul II created the Personal Apostolic Administration of St John Mary Vianney in 2002. It is essentially an “overlay diocese” in the Diocese of Campos, Brazil with their own bishop. The Personal Apostolic Administration also provides the Latin mass for a handful of other dioceses in Brazil too.

So I honestly wonder if the Pope is considering the expansion of this, essentially making the Extraordinary Form its own Rite within the Church.

Personal Apostolic Administration of Saint John Mary Vianney - Wikipedia

 

[Jbrady]

I think Pope Francis is considering the possibility of splitting the Extraordinary Form into its own Ordinariate.

Pope Francis expanded the ability for Catholics to attend the Anglican Ordinariate, and I would not be surprised if he decides to create an Ordinariate for the Latin Mass.

The chances of that are very low. He is much more likely to be concerned about the separatist tendencies of TLM adherents, and the fact that they have already created a separate “church within the Church” who isolate themselves from the majority of Catholics, and are often even hostile to them, and even to the Pope himself. Pope Benedict underestimated this separatist tendency. Even he did not envision the creation of some separate structure.

If anything, this review is going to take a dim view of separatism, and counteract it. An ordinariate is pretty much out of the question.

 

[choose_to_love]

I agree, an ordinariate seems unlikely. I doubt the FSSP, ICKSP, etc., have any interest in something like that, and it would be hard to believe there is enough interest in the general population, so to speak, for an ordinariate.

I would think the opposite would be more likely, i.e., withdraw SP, suppress (or whatever the right word is) the FSSP and ICKSP as ‘creating division’, being too rigid, etc.

‘separatist tendency’ what is the alternative, though? I mean really, can one truly say those who attend an EF are “all” adherents to what you describe? Do they have any practical effect on the Church at large? I think most U.S. Catholics barely know that such things exist. I would think most bishops, as currently constituted, should be happy to concentrate those who want the EF into one or two parishes per diocese.

 

[phil19034]

phil19034:

I think Pope Francis is considering the possibility of splitting the Extraordinary Form into its own Ordinariate.

Pope Francis expanded the ability for Catholics to attend the Anglican Ordinariate, and I would not be surprised if he decides to create an Ordinariate for the Latin Mass.

The chances of that are very low. He is much more likely to be concerned about the separatist tendencies of TLM adherents, and the fact that they have already created a separate “church within the Church” who isolate themselves from the majority of Catholics, and are often even hostile to them, and even to the Pope himself. Pope Benedict underestimated this separatist tendency. Even he did not envision the creation of some separate structure.

If anything, this review is going to take a dim view of separatism, and counteract it. An ordinariate is pretty much out of the question.

Yes, but one already exists in Brazil. The Personal Apostolic Administration of Saint John Mary Vianney. Plus, there are rumors that Pope Francis wanted to transform the SSPX into an ordinariate, if he could get them into full communion.

 

[phil19034]

I agree, an ordinariate seems unlikely. I doubt the FSSP, ICKSP, etc., have any interest in something like that, and it would be hard to believe there is enough interest in the general population, so to speak, for an ordinariate.

There are far more Latin Mass Catholics than they are Anglican Use Catholics.

The Pope also just approved (in March 2020) new prayer & preface options for new Saints in for the Extraordinary Form

Recent Saints and new Prefaces added to 1962 Roman Missal - Vatican News

I would think the opposite would be more likely, i.e., withdraw SP, suppress (or whatever the right word is) the FSSP and ICKSP as ‘creating division’, being too rigid, etc.

There is no evidence that the FSSP and ICKSP are creating division for Bishops. If anything, I think they solve the issues the Bishops experience with Diocesan priests attempting to offer the Latin mass.

Also, creating an ordinariate would not automatically mean that the FSSP and ICKSP would need to disappear. It would simply mean that their parishes would belong to different bishops.

‘separatist tendency’ what is the alternative, though? I mean really, can one truly say those who attend an EF are “all” adherents to what you describe? Do they have any practical effect on the Church at large? I think most U.S. Catholics barely know that such things exist. I would think most bishops, as currently constituted, should be happy to concentrate those who want the EF into one or two parishes per diocese.

Same thing could be said about the Ordinariate, which Pope Francis expanded their membership from just converts to any Catholic who prefers the Ordinariate Liturgy. He also granted them their first Bishop.

I personally think Pope Francis thinks moving traditionalist to their own ordinariate would be best.

It is really the best compromise. It’s gets the traditionalist out of the Bishop’s hair. And gives the traditionalists their own Rite, similar to the Ambrosians, Rutharians, Melkites, etc.

It also allows the traditionalist orders to remain as is and service a new ordinariate. Traditionalist Religious Orders (Canon Regulars, Monastic Orders, Mendicant Orders, Clerics Regulars, & Religious Congregations) can easily retain their charisms. While traditionalist Societies of Apostolic Life can easily either become “diocesan priests” of a new ordinariate OR retain their societies.

For a Pope like Pope Francis, who is sympathetic to the idea of Ordinariate, it is a win win.

I know as a fact that the Institute of the Good Shepherd is in favor of an Ordinariate type position, which is why they seperated from the SSPX. I think the only group that would straight out reject an Ordinariate is the SSPX, because their ultimate goal is to replace the 1969 Mass.

God Bless

 

[Dovekin]

Ordinariate? Where would they get any laity?

FSSP, ICK, SSPX, are all groups of clergy. There may be some small stable groups who attend the EF, but it is not clear that anything connects them in any way.

The group in Brazil is the remnant of a diocese. There is nothing similar to group around anywhere else. The Anglican Ordinariates all have people coming from a common place, an identity to share and build on. There are no cultural roots among EF folk.

How would the EF survive if it were not part of Rome?

 

[InThePew]

Plus, there are rumors that Pope Francis wanted to transform the SSPX into an ordinariate, if he could get them into full communion.

The SSPX themselves weren’t so hot on that idea - or at least they wanted it to be exempt from any control (directly or indirectly) by the local bishop which was basically a non-starter.

What has your diocese done about this? Is there a group of people who are speaking with the diocese and the bishop to admonish this priest to follow the rubrics? Or is the diocese corrupt, too?

It’s been said that organizing priests is like trying to herd cats on crack! I’d say every diocese has at the very least one priest who’s “wandered away from the farm” so to speak. It’s not that the diocese (or even the bishop) is corrupt but rather that they’re trying to find a solution to s problem that’s akin to the classic square peg in a round hole! In other word, dioceses with priests like this (and every diocese has them) have a responsibility to take care of their priests, even the crazy ones and so sometimes it’s a case of trying to put them we’re they’ll do the least amount of harm for the longest period of time and, in the case of those who haven’t (yet) alienated their entire congregation, it’s a matter of leaving well enough alone. Of course, the cliercialist nature of such decision making is a whole other issue!