Revisiting: Going to hell for leaving the Catholic Church (dealing with guilt 6 years later)

[jmcrae]

I grew up with these views, but then God put people in my life that affected my heart.

So, you met people in manifest grave sin who were kind, educated, and polite.

Having fallen into a stereotype that evil has to manifest as rude, illiterate, and mean, it blew your mind to meet polite sinners. (Apparently we forgot to teach you that the Devil is a soft-spoken gentleman. He doesn’t actually have a pitchfork and horns.)

I believe God speaks through my heart and through love. So, as mentioned before, I’m at odds here.

Love doesn’t require that you say sin isn’t really sin. In fact, that’s the opposite of love.

 

[Thorolfr]

As a Catholic, my spiritual ancestors are Jesus and the Apostles.

When I was Protestant, my spiritual ancestors were ex-Catholics.

In order to have spiritual ancestors who are Muslim, I would have to be Muslim.

My point is that many of the things we all believe are a result of the families we grew up in and the ancestors we had.

It’s no accident that I attend a Lutheran church instead of a Catholic one. None of my ancestors for the last 400 years have been Catholics, but I’ve had quite a few Puritan, Lutheran, Baptist, Methodist, Mennonite, Anglican, and other non-Catholic ancestors.

If I had been born in Egypt or Syria or Algeria or Morocco, etc. I’d most likely be a Muslim and would probably be absolutely certain in the truth of Islam. If I had been born in India, I might be a Hindu. But it doesn’t give me much confidence in the truth of any particular religion knowing that the religion I practice is mostly only due to the fact that it’s the religion my ancestors practiced, not necessarily because it is demonstrably truer than any other religion.

If I go into a Muslim forum (which I have), they are just as certain of the truth of Islam as most Catholics in CAF are in the truth of Catholicism.

 

[jmcrae]

My point is that many of the things we all believe are a result of the families we grew up in and the ancestors we had.

Yes, this is true - but, many people change religions, and surely they have reasons for doing so.

It’s no accident that I attend a Lutheran church instead of a Catholic one. None of my ancestors for the last 400 years have been Catholics, but I’ve had quite a few Puritan, Lutheran, Baptist, Methodist, Mennonite, Anglican, and other non-Catholic ancestors.

Do you ever wonder what they were before that? Does it occur to you to wonder, which were the Apostles? Mennonites, or Lutherans? Which religion is the original that was created by Jesus?

If I had been born in Egypt or Syria or Algeria or Morocco, etc. I’d most likely be a Muslim and would probably be absolutely certain in the truth of Islam. If I had been born in India, I might be a Hindu. But it doesn’t give me much confidence in the truth of any particular religion knowing that the religion I practice is mostly only due to the fact that it’s the religion my ancestors practiced, not necessarily because it is demonstrably truer than any other religion.

If I go into a Muslim forum (which I have), they are just as certain of the truth of Islam as most Catholics in CAF are in the truth of Catholicism.

That’s probably true - and, as you say, ancestry doesn’t determine truth. History does. Who was Jesus? Should we follow Him? If so, what religion did He establish? (If He didn’t establish one, then who did, and why did they bother?)

By the way, from a physical point of view, I have no Catholic ancestors prior to 1560 AD, when Scotland became Protestant by decree of Queen Elizabeth I. I assume I’m alive today because my ancestors who were alive at that time recanted their Catholic faith and became Protestants.

It was only by my stumbling accidentally on to the information that the early Church was deliberately created to be the Catholic Church by Jesus Christ, that I am Catholic today, and have taken the Apostles and Jesus for my spiritual ancestors, by having been adopted into their family.

 

[PRmerger]

My point is that many of the things we all believe are a result of the families we grew up in and the ancestors we had.

No doubt.

But you are implying that this means that there is no objectively true religion because of this
(else, what’s your point in asserting this?).

And if there’s no objective truth, because, heck, we just believe what we were taught to believe as children, then you cannot ever tell someone that slavery is wrong.

Because, of course, they will simply use your argument to state that it’s not wrong.

If I go into a Muslim forum (which I have), they are just as certain of the truth of Islam as most Catholics in CAF are in the truth of Catholicism.

This is irrelevant.

You can go to anti-vaxxer website and find people “just as certain of the truth” that vaccines cause autism…

But that doesn’t deny this fact: vaccine are good for society and there is no link to autism.

Period.

That folks disagree is an otiose point.

 

[St_Francis]

Well, I’m certainly not here only to justify my own decisions. Yes, I do believe I’m searching for truth. Many on these forums are strong in their belief that following the RCC is the best way to accomplish this. I’m not so sure.

Why did I start this thread on a catholic forum rather than some other non affiliated religious forum? My main goal is to figure out how I can maintain/strengthen the relationship with God for myself and my family, and I feel most at home talking to Catholics (though I did originally start this thread in the non catholic religions forum, with hopes of also getting a diverse set of opinions). That said, statements like “get back to the sacraments” will be difficult for me to act on so easily. I’ve been away for quite a few years, and I’m not really ready to go back yet.

Well, our lives are a process. There were 8 years between the time God let me know He was there and my return to the Church, and even now, I am still “in process”

I think that getting advice from parents as to good things to do to raise your children within a faith might help. Certainly Catholics will bring up different things like the Rosary and saints, but there are areas of similarity–i.e., pray with your whole family, maybe incorporate Bible stories (and the Bible itself when your children are older), and always pray to know God’s will, while staying close and maintaining good relatiionships with your family.

Do not neglect having fun and creating memories, maybe establishing routines for built-in activities together. It is hard when one is unsure of oneself to understand that a good relationship with God can be imparted by teaching a good relationship with His creation–not environmentalism per se–but having a fabulous time at the park and then during evening prayers, thanking God for that.

I have heard that the best thing parents can do for their children is to love their spouse, to have a solid marriage, so be nice to your wife

I am giving this as very general advice, I do not mean in any way to imply anything about what you have been doing (which I don’t know!)-- my suggestions probably reflect more on me.

 

[Sy_Noe]

Regarding determining if you’re “going to hell”: you should disabuse yourself of the idea that anyone could determine if you’re going to hell.

In fact, if any Catholic ever tells you: “I have determined that you are going to hell” you can tell him, “Really? Because I’m pretty sure that the Catholic Church says that you can’t do this.”

That would bring a smile to my face to think of a person who’s left the CC telling a person who’s still part of the CC what the CC actually teaches.

Actually the CC teaches a person could not be saved if they know the Catholic Church teaches it was founded as necessary by God through Christ, and yet they would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it. (CCC 846)

That is why the question begs, what does it mean to “know”? Is it enough to know that the CC teaches it’s THE one. Or in order to “know”, does one also need to believe the CC is THE one even if they know what the CC says about itself?

 

[PRmerger]

Actually the CC teaches a person could not be saved if they know the Catholic Church teaches it was founded as necessary by God through Christ, and yet they would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it. (CCC 846)

Yep.

But no one can determine if another person fits this criterion.

(The “actually” was…er…actually…unnecessary)

That is why the question begs, what does it mean to “know”? Is it enough to know that the CC teaches it’s THE one. Or in order to “know”, does one also need to believe the CC is THE one even if they know what the CC says about itself?

It is enough to know that the CC is the true Church, the Body of Christ, but to willfully reject it.

 

[Sy_Noe]

Yep.

But no one can determine if another person fits this criterion.

(The “actually” was…er…actually…unnecessary)

It is enough to know that the CC is the true Church, the Body of Christ, but to willfully reject it.

Why not? If I tell you I know the CC teaches it’s the true Church but I don’t remain in it, according to the CCC I fit the criterion. Or another person can tell you they know the CC teaches it’s the one true Church. Lots of people know that. The CC and Catholic faithful don’t exactly keep it a secret that they believe it is. They would fit the criterion too. Seems simple enough.

 

[PRmerger]

Why not? If I tell you I know the CC teaches it’s the true Church but I don’t remain in it, according to the CCC I fit the criterion. Seems simple enough.

You know that the Catholic Church is the true Church?

Please note: do not change my question.

I am NOT asking: you know that the CC teaches that it’s the true Church

 

[Sy_Noe]

You know that the Catholic Church is the true Church?

Please note: do not change my question.

I am NOT asking: you know that the CC teaches that it’s the true Church

Depends on the definition of “know”.

 

[PRmerger]

Depends on the definition of “know”.

So answer it as you understand it.

Do you know the Catholic Church is the true Church?

 

[Sy_Noe]

As a Catholic, my spiritual ancestors are Jesus and the Apostles.

When I was Protestant, my spiritual ancestors were ex-Catholics.

In order to have spiritual ancestors who are Muslim, I would have to be Muslim.

A Protestant’s ex-Catholic spiritual ancestors can believe Christ died for our sins.

 

[Sy_Noe]

So answer it as you understand it.

Do you know the Catholic Church is the true Church?

I know it says it remains so on every issue. Do you factor into the equation “belief” and “faith” in order to “know” for sure? That remains the question.

 

[PRmerger]

I know it says it remains so on every issue.

I don’t know what this means.

Could you please explain?

 

[PRmerger]

Yep.

But no one can determine if another person fits this criterion.

(The “actually” was…er…actually…unnecessary)

It is enough to know that the CC is the true Church, the Body of Christ, but to willfully reject it.

Why not? If I tell you I know the CC teaches it’s the true Church but I don’t remain in it, according to the CCC I fit the criterion. Or another person can tell you they know the CC teaches it’s the one true Church. Lots of people know that. The CC and Catholic faithful don’t exactly keep it a secret that they believe it is. They would fit the criterion too. Seems simple enough.

You know that the Catholic Church is the true Church?

Please note: do not change my question.

I am NOT asking: you know that the CC teaches that it’s the true Church

Depends on the definition of “know”.

So answer it as you understand it.

Do you know the Catholic Church is the true Church?

I know it says it remains so on every issue. Do you factor into the equation “belief” and “faith” in order to “know” for sure? That remains the question.

You know.…, I think that the progression of this discourse answers your own question you posed above (“Why not?”)

The segue above answers the question “why not”: because you can’t even answer if you know if the Catholic Church is the true Church.

That’s “why not”.

We will never be able to determine if you’re condemned to hell for leaving the Catholic Church when you can’t even answer the very basic question.

QED.

 

[jmcrae]

A Protestant’s ex-Catholic spiritual ancestors can believe Christ died for our sins.

Yes, but having separated themselves from His Church, believing so does them no good. The grace of God’s forgiveness that pours out from Christ’s side in the blood and water is conveyed to us by means of the Sacraments of the Church He founded on Peter. Having cut themselves off from valid Sacraments, they are cut off from God’s grace, other than by miraculous and extraordinary means. “Can they be saved?” Yes. Will they? No one can know. Will God make an extraordinary miracle for every single person who is cut off?

How, then, would it be an extraordinary miracle, if everyone gets one?

 

[Sy_Noe]

You know.…, I think that the progression of this discourse answers your own question you posed above (“Why not?”)

The segue above answers the question “why not”: because you can’t even answer if you know if the Catholic Church is the true Church.

That’s “why not”.

We will never be able to determine if you’re condemned to hell for leaving the Catholic Church when you can’t even answer the very basic question.

QED.

I don’t know. But perhaps “we” could make a better determination and a better answer could be arrived at if there was consensus on what the CC meant by “know” and “could not be saved”.

I can only ask the same question though in so many ways before I place my hands in the air.

A) Does just knowing what the CC says about itself suffice and if in knowing that, one does not remain or enter into it, then they can’t be saved?

B) Or when Catholics go around proclaiming they “know” truth, does that mean they really don’t know for sure. But they merely by faith not by sight, believe or think they know?

B actually makes the greater sense to me but for some reason it is like pulling teeth to get Catholics to admit this and that they don’t actually “know” but merely just think and believe they do by faith. I don’t know why this is. If it is because they fear admitting that since humans have finite minds, all of us could be wrong on some point(s) in our understanding of God and truth and instead they need everything black and white without any evolution in human understanding over the course of time? Or why it is?

Then there is “could not be saved”? Perhaps intentional ambiguity there by the CC? I always did think CCC instead of saying “could not” should say either “can not” or “might not” to be clearer.

 

[PRmerger]

I don’t know. But perhaps “we” could make a better determination and a better answer could be arrived at if there was consensus on what the CC meant by “know” and “could not be saved”.

I can only ask the same question though in so many ways before I place my hands in the air.

A) Does just knowing what the CC says about itself suffice and if in knowing that, one does not remain or enter into it, then they can’t be saved?

B) Or when Catholics go around proclaiming they “know” truth, does that mean they really don’t know for sure. But they merely by faith not by sight, believe or think they know?

B actually makes the greater sense to me but for some reason it is like pulling teeth to get Catholics to admit this and that they don’t actually “know” but merely just think and believe they do by their faith.

Then there is “could not be saved”? Perhaps intentional ambiguity there by the CC? I always did think CCC instead of saying “could not” should say either “can not” or “might not” to be clearer.

If *you *don’t know, then I certainly can’t tell you if you’re going to hell.

This proves our point.

Next time someone tells you that you’re condemned to hell, you can tell them exactly how this discourse went to prove this person wrong.

 

[Sy_Noe]

I don’t know what this means.

Could you please explain?

On every issue the CC takes a stand on. On for instance the social issues the OP spoke about. But it could be any matter as far as that goes. Others may not be sure about something such as the Real Presence as the CC believes it to be. Take some Protestants for instance. They might believe in a spiritual presence of Christ. Others in a symbolic representation of the Supper. Oh so many faiths in which all seek the ultimate truth. God bless us all on our journeys.

 

[PRmerger]

On every issue the CC takes a stand on. On for instance the social issues the OP spoke about. But it could be any matter as far as that goes. Others may not be sure about something such as the Real Presence as the CC believes it to be. Take some Protestants for instance. They might believe in a spiritual presence of Christ. Others in a symbolic representation of the Supper. Oh so many faiths in which all seek the ultimate truth. God bless us all on our journeys.

Do you ever take a stand on something, Sy?

If so, can you give an example of this–perhaps in the workplace, or even in public, such as at a demonstration for something?