Revisiting: Going to hell for leaving the Catholic Church (dealing with guilt 6 years later)

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jmcrae said:
Yes, but having separated themselves from His Church, believing so does them no good. The grace of God’s forgiveness that pours out from Christ’s side in the blood and water is conveyed to us by means of the Sacraments of the Church He founded on Peter. Having cut themselves off from valid Sacraments, they are cut off from God’s grace, other than by miraculous and extraordinary means. “Can they be saved?” Yes. Will they? No one can know. Will God make an extraordinary miracle for every single person who is cut off?

How, then, would it be an extraordinary miracle, if everyone gets one?
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Well sure but first one must believe and have faith in regards to what it was or is or is today that makes up His Church.
 
Sy_Noe said:
On every issue the CC takes a stand on. On for instance the social issues the OP spoke about. But it could be any matter as far as that goes. Others may not be sure about something such as the Real Presence as the CC believes it to be. Take some Protestants for instance. They might believe in a spiritual presence of Christ. Others in a symbolic representation of the Supper. Oh so many faiths in which all seek the ultimate truth. God bless us all on our journeys.
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Would you feel comfortable saying this, Sy: “I know that it is wrong to tell someone that he is condemned to hell”.
 
jmcrae said:
So, you met people in manifest grave sin who were kind, educated, and polite.

Having fallen into a stereotype that evil has to manifest as rude, illiterate, and mean, it blew your mind to meet polite sinners. (Apparently we forgot to teach you that the Devil is a soft-spoken gentleman. He doesn’t actually have a pitchfork and horns.)
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Indeed, evil may very well be present in the form of posters on Catholic forums passing false judgement.
 
Redman1986 said:
Indeed, evil may very well be present in the form of posters on Catholic forums passing false judgement.
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Careful, Redman.

It is good for you to be here and in dialogue with knowledgeable Catholics, so I suggest you watch how you present your arguments a bit better.
 
PRmerger said:
Careful, Redman.

It is good for you to be here and in dialogue with knowledgeable Catholics, so I suggest you watch how you present your arguments a bit better.
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As I see it, I’m responding in kind. I’m on a catholic forum for a reason, but dealing with posts like these is not one of them.
 
Redman1986 said:
As I see it, I’m responding in kind. I’m on a catholic forum for a reason, but dealing with posts like these is not one of them.
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That said, my intention was not to suggest that anyone posting here is evil. Simply to point out that what is “manifest grave sin” is subjective, unless you whole heartedly accept the objective morality of some religion, which I have not yet done. So posting in terms of said objective morality in a somewhat condescending fashion won’t help my understanding unfortunately.
 
PRmerger said:
Well, let’s see how that would work: you would say, “The CC got it right about A, B and C, but got it wrong about D, E, and F”.

And what would you use as the canon of measurement for where the CC is right and where the CC is wrong–what your own personal views are?

If so, wouldn’t that simply be worshipping yourself and your own personal ideals?
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I agree that if your God doesn’t ever disagree with you, then you are likely worshiping yourself. You posted that earlier I think.

So this post got me thinking. Yes, what am I using to decide where the Catholic church got it wrong? My own personal views? No, I don’t think so. Whether I like it or not, my own personal views are so affected by the Catholic church, it wasn’t those personal views that could have caused me to stray.

The views of others? Surely this played a part. Once I left my “bubble” which was filled mostly with those of the Catholic faith, I was exposed to different views. I heard things I had never heard before.

How about a simple hard-wired feeling of altruism? Putting others first?

Truly, deciding that the church you’ve known and loved for many years is wrong is never anything I took lightly, and certainly not just that my views changed like a leaf in the wind. There was much soul-searching involved, as well as the eventual acceptance that the Catholic church could be wrong at all.
 
Redman1986 said:
I agree that if your God doesn’t ever disagree with you, then you are likely worshiping yourself. You posted that earlier I think.
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Yes.
So this post got me thinking. Yes, what am I using to decide where the Catholic church got it wrong? My own personal views? No, I don’t think so. Whether I like it or not, my own personal views are so affected by the Catholic church, it wasn’t those personal views that could have caused me to stray.
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Fair enough.
The views of others? Surely this played a part. Once I left my “bubble” which was filled mostly with those of the Catholic faith, I was exposed to different views. I heard things I had never heard before.
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And how do you know if these things you “heard before” are true or false?
How about a simple hard-wired feeling of altruism? Putting others first?
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Sure.

But what about: is the day of worship Saturday or Sunday?

Is baptism an ordinance or a sacrament?

Is there One God or many?

Is it a sin to divorce and remarry or another chance at happiness?

Is abortion a sin or a sacrament?

Can I get to heaven if I am a Muslim?

What’s the canon you use to determine the answer to these questions?
Truly, deciding that the church you’ve known and loved for many years is wrong is never anything I took lightly, and certainly not just that my views changed like a leaf in the wind. There was much soul-searching involved, as well as the eventual acceptance that the Catholic church could be wrong at all.
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I don’t think anyone has proposed that this journey is an easy one.

I will tell you that you should be very, very careful about “church shopping”.

You shouldn’t find the church that agrees with all of your personal views on things.

Rather, you should find the Church that Jesus established, and then conform all your views to His.
 
PRmerger said:
Rather, you should find the Church that Jesus established, and then conform all your views to His.
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And when you join a church, I think it’s perfectly valid to ask if they can trace all of their pastors back to the Apostles.

Most churches, esp. the non-denominational ones here in the US, trace their inception back, perhaps, 40 years.

Their pastor left when he read the Bible, knowing that the current pastor was fallible and going to interpret the Scriptures incorrectly, and decided that what the current pastor was teaching was wrong…so he leaves to start his own church.

No one doing this can trace his church back to the Apostles.

And if you join one of the “liturgical” churches, such as Lutheranism or Methodism, their ancestry goes back a few hundred years…but certainly not to the Apostles.

So that really just leaves you with…the CC or the Orthodox Church.

🤷
 
PRmerger said:
Yep.

But no one can determine if another person fits this criterion.

…
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This is the operative factor here. It’s no use expecting the rest of us to guess your deep down position Sy. It’s your own job of work to explore what knowing means, and what not refusing means. I’ve done a colossal amount of it myself in the last 8 months and much of it on myriad other web sites. I keep reframing my search engine queries.

I pray first, and serendipity happens!

Sometimes I bump into someone that gives me a relevant book or leaflet.

I think it’s essential for us all to imagine that Sy and many others, like me also, are coming at the questions from somewhere else than many of you, hence helping break out of the head-on style I often see in these threads. We could try to think of an unusual facet of the question that we ourselves found attractive.

Some parishes and dioceses have self-ticked the boxes, claiming to catechise, but haven’t really, by contrast with where you luckier ones have spent your lives.

May God send you some folks who have that unusual bit of info to catch your interest Sy (like He has done me).
 
Redman1986 said:
… Yes, I do believe I’m searching for truth. Many on these forums are strong in their belief that following the RCC is the best way to accomplish this. I’m not so sure.

… My main goal is to figure out how I can maintain/strengthen the relationship with God for myself and my family, and I feel most at home talking to Catholics (though I did originally start this thread in the non catholic religions forum, with hopes of also getting a diverse set of opinions). That said, statements like “get back to the sacraments” will be difficult for me to act on so easily. …
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Redman, take it a step at a time, I for one am wondering why you appear so attached to the going to hell idea, only God would know and I think your priorities should be as you state here rather than “piling it on thick” so as to give yourself grounds to panic.

In my own experience I’ve found local churches unequipped to help returners become acquainted with the existential basis for sacraments. Apart from difficulty finding fellow parishioners who talk intelligible sense (however good their lives in most ways), it’s been years since I could get a penance prescribed in confession (it’s uphill asserting myself to say “Now look here” to the priest in the middle of confession 😉 )

Redman please join me in praying that people will cross your path with really fresh intriguing new angles on all this (I’ve just said an Our Father for that). The first hand personal element is essential!
 
Redman1986 said:
… what am I using to decide where the Catholic church got it wrong? My own personal views? No, I don’t think so. Whether I like it or not, my own personal views are so affected by the Catholic church, it wasn’t those personal views that could have caused me to stray.

The views of others? Surely this played a part. Once I left my “bubble” which was filled mostly with those of the Catholic faith, I was exposed to different views. I heard things I had never heard before.

How about a simple hard-wired feeling of altruism? Putting others first?

Truly, deciding that the church you’ve known and loved for many years is wrong is never anything I took lightly, and certainly not just that my views changed like a leaf in the wind. There was much soul-searching involved, as well as the eventual acceptance that the Catholic church could be wrong at all.
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Your views were indeed affected by the CC around you, as much as you could understand what it was saying. In a worst case scenario thinking you were a captive audience behind your school desk maybe those church folks you knew didn’t rise to the occasion of convincing you to the level you would need to be convinced after leaving school. Millions are “content” to “belong” to the Church with their brains out of gear, not challenging catechisers to catechise!

In God’s eyes as we progress through adulthood of course it’s His will for us that we be in touch with a variety of views.

It’s a huge “dickens” of a job to try to make out where the CC is out-and-out wrong and where it has shot us all in the foot by not communicating its own truths with its own children.

It will always be premature to arrive at “final” conclusions on the distinction between these two things. It’s great to show your face where you can enquire. Don’t lament the need to enquire! Take it step by step and don’t burn any of your bridges anytime soon. Also, don’t be discontented with the bridges because they are a bit flimsy looking.

Responders who state how off pat everything is may just be overstating their case. They have a case, whether their way of putting it does much for us or not. The main thing is to try to look past all that and see what the things that motivate you and appeal to you are.

In another post you mentioned polite people (maybe those around you weren’t polite to you when you were at school), that sounds like a bit of trouble is being expended by your new acquaintances in relating with you. Keeping you company, is healing when you are weary!

R for relating is the ultimate dirty word for Catholics! 😉

Now it is very true that the devil is also suave as someone points out. Therefore I would suggest you ask God to show you people who actually talk Catholic sense (in personally relating to you) to match (complement and supplement) the non-Catholic ones, keep asking Him and tell us how He is answering this. Pick just a few very specific issues of extra vivid interest to you, don’t expect to be made fully orthodox quickly. Eat everything on the menu, but not all at once - keep coming back to God’s Real Cafeteria… And don’t burn any bridges too quickly.
 
Redman, another thing, kind non-Catholics have taken an interest in you and the family you care so much and so well for, and are willing to spend time sharing parts of the Bible with you. And you have been able to nurture excellent ambitions for yourself and your family.

That shows God’s rare care compared with the average situation in most countries nowadays. I’m convinced God means to top that with Catholic blessings in addition, which your companions in your young day didn’t happen to do justice to at that time.

You came across your thread from 6 years ago completely by chance, and upon reviewng it the lengthy irrelevant digressions it met with here on that occasion has understandably reminded you of how much it had rattled you.
 
Sy_Noe said:
Well sure but first one must believe and have faith in regards to what it was or is or is today that makes up His Church.
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This faith is supported with generally accepted historical facts, such as that St. Peter, an Apostle of Jesus Christ, is the first Pope of the Roman Catholic Church.
 
PRmerger said:
Funny.

Now, can you please take a deeper look at my question and answer it?
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You asked if I ever take a stand and to give an example. I can’t help if you didn’t like my example. Or if it didn’t work with your narrative. Now you seem to be moving the goal posts.
 
PRmerger said:
And when you join a church, I think it’s perfectly valid to ask if they can trace all of their pastors back to the Apostles.

Most churches, esp. the non-denominational ones here in the US, trace their inception back, perhaps, 40 years.

Their pastor left when he read the Bible, knowing that the current pastor was fallible and going to interpret the Scriptures incorrectly, and decided that what the current pastor was teaching was wrong…so he leaves to start his own church.

No one doing this can trace his church back to the Apostles.

And if you join one of the “liturgical” churches, such as Lutheranism or Methodism, their ancestry goes back a few hundred years…but certainly not to the Apostles.

So that really just leaves you with…the CC or the Orthodox Church.

🤷
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You would find many a Protestant who would disagree. Just time for a couple examples. The United Church of Christ on its website says their faith is 2000 yrs old. A confirmed Roman rite Catholic would not need to be re-confirmed in TEC because TEC believes both are confirmed in the apostolic succession of bishops. Yes I understand the CC rejects the view of TEC but it is their belief. Some Protestant denominations deny the need of maintaining episcopal continuity. They might say the role of the apostles was to build the Church but since a foundation does not repeat itself, when the apostles died they were replaced by their writings. To share with the apostles the same faith that proclaims Christ Lord and Savior (the Christian faith) is the continuation. It truly matters who is doing the tracing.
 
jmcrae said:
This faith is supported with generally accepted historical facts, such as that St. Peter, an Apostle of Jesus Christ, is the first Pope of the Roman Catholic Church.
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Yes that is the faith and belief of the Roman rite. See my previous post.
 
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