Revival of the Latin mass

[SnorterLuster]

… plus a bunch of smaller pocket-size missals. These are the true gems. They are small prayer books with the weekly propers as well as the Ordinary of Mass.

**traditiobob:

Let me second this recommendation. I use the Father Stedman Sunday Missal. It is small enough to fit in your shirt pocket or the breast pocket of your coat. I would suggest if you look on ebay, try to get the large type edition with ribbons. I use the regular edition and the type is a little small, but not unreadable. The ribbons are useful of course to keep your place. Using holy cards to mark your place is OK, but they tend to fall out.**

 

[joelacour]

The sermon would still have be given in one of those three vernacular languages.

When my parents were married in 1954, they honeymooned in Haiti. When they went to Mass, the liturgy was celebrated exactly the same as it was in New Jersey. The sermon, on the other hand, was in French.

Nowadays, you don’t know what you’re getting from parish to parish or Mass to Mass within the same diocese!

BTW, I just purchased my new Missal from here: cantius.org/webstore/roman-catholic-daily-missal.html

 

[Hansel]

I think one poster said somewhere that Latin is the sacred language? Where they got that from I have no idea, but I’d like to know myself. Perhaps someone who write that will see this post and hopefully tell us where they got that information from?

Yes, the Latin Mass is the Mass of the Ages, and so that being the case, perhaps that is why Latin is considered a sacred language? Jesus Himself didn’t speak Latin, the Romans did. I just don’t know my history well enough to be absolutely certain as to what the church says about Latin, past or present. Maybe someone more knowledgeable can shed some light on it? perhaps they can tell us the Chruch’s official stance on the use of Latin?

Hello! I can’t tell you the official stance on Latin, but I do believe that some things (including languages) become hallowed with use and association over time. The Church took root in Rome and Latin (in the West) was Her language. Most of our saints prayed in Latin. Sacred texts and Papal documents were written in Latin. It isn’t that God “prefers” Latin to any other language, but it is the connection that it gives us to the history of our Church, to our ancestors, to a sense of continuity, etc. that makes it special. I find too (speaking for myself) that praying in Latin (not my native tongue reminds me that faith transcends intellect. It is good that we understand our Faith, but things like Latin, which most of us do not fully understand, remind us that, like St. Anselm, we believe in ORDER to understand. “Credo ut intelligium”!

Hans

 

[Silver_Thread]

The Roman Catholic Church is the Latin rite. It’s language is Latin. Duh!! So the Mass was said in Latin. Has anyone noticed the differences in the translations of Latin into English. Has anyone noticed the license translators take using their own translational theory.? Look at all the different Bible translations. For Heaven’s sake why! Somegody has an agenda and you can be sure it isn’t good for you or me. The weaker the translation the more watered down the truth becomes, the weaker the faith of the reader. You ain’t seen nothin yet!!! lol

 

[awsiukiewicz]

He understands the heart and mind behind whatever you say however you say it or whatever you don’t say.

But what’s so difficult about memorizing a few Latin prayers which everyone in the Catholic Church will know soon?

 

[awsiukiewicz]

Amen brother Bob no doubt our Creator knows our hearts and whether we pray in any particular language seems somewhat superfluous but Latin is the language of the Church. All Church documents are in Latin. It is unambiguous and therefore leaves little to misinterpretation. I’m not sure if it was Pope St. John Paul II or Pope Benedict emeritus that strongly recommended that all Catholics learn the basic prayers in the Latin. Discussion/questioning is obviously ‘healthy’ arguing the importance of something like this seems counterproductive to me. Let us pray from our hearts. I was an altar boy just before and during V-2 so I learned to memorize the prayers as a young boy but now I know what I am really praying when I pray the Holy Rosary in Latin. Everyone should avail themselves of this beautiful ancient language, it is not ‘dead’. Pax tecum

 

[otjm]

That is a nice post, Genesis and God bless that holy priest. That being said, in the 1940s the liturgy was in Latin. The only reason that people would have prayed in ‘other languages’ would have been that they were not Catholic (like the Jewish people), or were perhaps Orthodox or Protestant. And he does not mention whether their prayer was spoken or SILENT, either.

God certainly understands abnormal or special situations. But the norm for Catholics of that time was a Latin liturgy. The norm for today is STILL that Latin liturgy but a second norm is a vernacular liturgy. God understands that when I go to the Polish Mass, I follow along as best I can in English because ‘the Mass is the Mass’. So I don’t think He would have any problem with us following at a Latin Mass as best we can (in English, Spanish, Vietnamese, etc.) silently and (to the best of our ability) in the Latin verbally.

Fr… Emilian Kowcz was a Greek Catholic priest; in 1911 he was married, and in 1912 he was ordained; so his language for Mass was likely anything but Latin. Most likely Greek.

It drives me a bit to distraction when we forget that for 2 millennia, the Church had the Mass (Sacred Mysteries, Divine Liturgy) in multiple languages, as it does today.

The Roman rite used Latin. It still does today, although Mass in the Roman rite is largely celebrated in the vernacular, appropriate to the congregation.

In the 1950’s I followed the Mass with a missal, Latin on one side and English on the other. Interestingly, one day, somewhere around 2000 I asked my mother (born in 1917) what she liked best about Vatican 2; the words were barely out of my mouth when she said “OH! The Mass in English!”. She was, if anything, most definitely not a progressive Catholic. She was, however, a daily Mass attendant.

 

[otjm]

Because Latin is the official language of the Church, its use is sacred.

Actually, it is the official language of the papacy, as official documents are issued in Latin; and it is the language in which the OF is written, and from which translations are made.

It is most definitely not the official language of the Church; as there are something like 23 Eastern rites, each with their own official language.

 

[otjm]

I would like to see a revival of the Latin Mass at the local parish level. I am in a diocese that is rapidly changing from English to Spanish, because we are close to the Mexican border. And our priests are always saying they want to have the people pray together and be part of ONE parish, but there are Masses in every language (e.g, English, Spanish, Vietnamese). If it were in Latin, we would all be able to attend every Mass and truly be united, I think. And we would be one community as opposed to three in one parish.

I would strongly suspect that if you were to do a poll of the three communities, they would overwhelmingly want to have the Mass in their own language. It is not for no reason that out of some 17,300+ parishes in the US, fewer than 3% have the EF (and I know of no reports anywhere showing how many parishes have the OF all in Latin).

I understand well the matter of the three congregations, because my brother was pastor to such a parish. And what he found (in a parish that, when he arrived, was significantly “progressive”) was that both the Vietnamese and the Hispanic communities had experienced a strong sense of racial attitudes from the “progressive” (largely “tolerant” Democratic) white community. In short, they really didn’t want much to do with the white folks, thank you very much. In both the Hispanic and the Vietnamese communities, the large majority of adults were first generation, making English a second language. Part of that may have been communication issues rather than blatant racism, but from my observations, I would bet pretty good money that while the priests of your diocese would like to see a far greater mixing of the communities, the likelihood is far closer to zero than it is to 50/50.

 

[otjm]

French radio today talked of a revival of the Latin mass. Youpee!
The British press has yet to say anything. Being only an ordinary Catholic (or perhaps just a European one)I can’t understand what all the fuss is about! Latin masses have always existed,though rather sparingly.In Russia you can attend Russo-Latin masses, i.e part of the mass is in Russian and part in Latin.And the priest still faces the congregation and one receives the host on the tongue (in the hand is considered disrespectful) and it is sometimes dipped in the holy wine. I really love these masses. I feel I have been to church, but then I am of the generation that grew up with the Latin mass.Whether the mass be in Latin or in one’s own language I fail to see the problem:shrug: I just happen to enjoy the Latin mass. I wonder if it bothers God what language he hears the mass in?

“Teh fuss” is that for centuries, there has been a dwindling of the number of people who could converse in Latin. And for the last 7 popes, there has been an understanding that way, way too many Catholics who attended Mass did so without even much of a passing acquaintance with what was being said at any given moment. It was not for no reason that people talked about their “obligation” to attend Mass; and they came, saying their rosary, or reading a pamphlet of private devotions during Mass.

The changes from the EF to the OF were not totally about the vernacular, but the vernacular took off in spectacular fashion once it was released.

None of this is intended in any way to denigrate the EF; but at least in the US, the response has been phenomenally in favor of the vernacular.

 

[edwest2]

Amen brother Bob no doubt our Creator knows our hearts and whether we pray in any particular language seems somewhat superfluous but Latin is the language of the Church. All Church documents are in Latin. It is unambiguous and therefore leaves little to misinterpretation. I’m not sure if it was Pope St. John Paul II or Pope Benedict emeritus that strongly recommended that all Catholics learn the basic prayers in the Latin. Discussion/questioning is obviously ‘healthy’ arguing the importance of something like this seems counterproductive to me. Let us pray from our hearts. I was an altar boy just before and during V-2 so I learned to memorize the prayers as a young boy but now I know what I am really praying when I pray the Holy Rosary in Latin. Everyone should avail themselves of this beautiful ancient language, it is not ‘dead’. Pax tecum

At my Catholic High School, we had Latin Class. Then it was discontinued for no reason I can recall. This was sometime between 1968 and 1970.

Ed

 

[edwest2]

“Teh fuss” is that for centuries, there has been a dwindling of the number of people who could converse in Latin. And for the last 7 popes, there has been an understanding that way, way too many Catholics who attended Mass did so without even much of a passing acquaintance with what was being said at any given moment. It was not for no reason that people talked about their “obligation” to attend Mass; and they came, saying their rosary, or reading a pamphlet of private devotions during Mass.

The changes from the EF to the OF were not totally about the vernacular, but the vernacular took off in spectacular fashion once it was released.

None of this is intended in any way to denigrate the EF; but at least in the US, the response has been phenomenally in favor of the vernacular.

We didn’t know what was being said? I was there before and after Vatican II. The missal had the Latin and English on the same page. I knew exactly what I was saying. We also had Mass in my native tongue. Any claim that we had no idea what was being said is false. We also had Religion Class. We were required to go to Mass during school hours but we were not required to have conversations in Latin.

After Vatican II, Church attendance did not increase.

religionnews.com/2014/01/27/great-decline-religion-united-states-one-graph/

There’s a reason for that but it’s off topic.

Ed

 

[tawny]

At my Catholic High School, we had Latin Class. Then it was discontinued for no reason I can recall. This was sometime between 1968 and 1970.

Ed

Same at my Catholic HS, we had Latin classes.

 

[tawny]

We didn’t know what was being said? I was there before and after Vatican II. The missal had the Latin and English on the same page. I knew exactly what I was saying. We also had Mass in my native tongue. Any claim that we had no idea what was being said is false. We also had Religion Class. We were required to go to Mass during school hours but we were not required to have conversations in Latin.

After Vatican II, Church attendance did not increase.

religionnews.com/2014/01/27/great-decline-religion-united-states-one-graph/

There’s a reason for that but it’s off topic.

Well stated.

Ed

 

[Kielbasi]

We didn’t know what was being said? I was there before and after Vatican II. The missal had the Latin and English on the same page. I knew exactly what I was saying.

Ed

Even Catholics that didn’t have a missal knew what was coming down.

They may not have been able to follow every syllable that the priest said, but they were still well versed about the order of mass, what the mass meant, and exactly how the mass was progressing from the actions and movements of the priest and servers.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Yes we knew, but, um, guys, somebody revived a nearly 10 year old thread. Time to take it down and start afresh!

 

[otjm]

We didn’t know what was being said? I was there before and after Vatican II. The missal had the Latin and English on the same page. I knew exactly what I was saying. We also had Mass in my native tongue. Any claim that we had no idea what was being said is false. We also had Religion Class. We were required to go to Mass during school hours but we were not required to have conversations in Latin.

After Vatican II, Church attendance did not increase.

religionnews.com/2014/01/27/great-decline-religion-united-states-one-graph/

There’s a reason for that but it’s off topic.

Ed

I had one of those missals too - and the greater majority of people in my parish did not have one. Hardly any of my classmates had one either. So you and I were blessed; but the rest were left on their own. So no, that is not a false statement.

And as to Mass attendance, it was already falling off in the mid 1950’s. Vatican 2 was not started to increase Mass attendance; it was started to deal with problems that reached back centuries.

 

[otjm]

Even Catholics that didn’t have a missal knew what was coming down.

They may not have been able to follow every syllable that the priest said, but they were still well versed about the order of mass, what the mass meant, and exactly how the mass was progressing from the actions and movements of the priest and servers.

And being so exceedingly well versed, they said rosaries and read from private devotional books.

There was a reason the 2,000+ bishops of the world wanted to increase participation in the Mass - they knew there were problems.

Yes, people would look up when the servers rang the bells; and otherwise, they were elsewhere.

 

[edwest2]

I had one of those missals too - and the greater majority of people in my parish did not have one. Hardly any of my classmates had one either. So you and I were blessed; but the rest were left on their own. So no, that is not a false statement.

And as to Mass attendance, it was already falling off in the mid 1950’s. Vatican 2 was not started to increase Mass attendance; it was started to deal with problems that reached back centuries.

If someone didn’t have a missal, we shared one. It was a priority for parents to get their children a missal. My entire class had the 1962 missal. Vatican II was started for other reasons, but that’s off topic.

Ed

 

[oldgraymare2]

Yes we knew, but, um, guys, somebody revived a nearly 10 year old thread. Time to take it down and start afresh!

Yes, I sometimes think that people just don’t realize that they’re posting or responding to really old threads, and that some of the members that they’re even responding to may not even be a part of the forum anymore.