Rhode Island bishop regrets failure to stop same-sex "marriage"

[zz912]

it is not a sin to be a democrat

The only way is if you have invincible ignorance, because the party itself blatantly supports, promotes, and is in favor of several issues that are non-negotiable issues that must be opposed by Christians.

Even if you are opposed to these issues, your support for the Party insures that these issues will be promoted. It is a cooperation with evil, and it is material.

 

[april32010]

excuse me ,are you the Magisterium ?

 

[CrossofChrist]

The only way is if you have invincible ignorance, because the party itself blatantly supports, promotes, and is in favor of several issues that are non-negotiable issues that must be opposed by Christians.

Even if you are opposed to these issues, your support for the Party insures that these issues will be promoted. It is a cooperation with evil, and it is material.

Political parties aren’t Churches. Why would it be a mortal sin just to be registered a Democrat? I guess this Rhode Island bishop was in mortal sin for 40 years for being a Democrat then, right? Especially because for a long, long time being a Catholic meant being a Democrat.

It’s not like being part of a socialist party (despite what some Democrats want ), which has always been antithetical to Catholicism, and how they were prevalent in countries where the opposition was a Catholic party.

 

[zz912]

Political parties aren’t Churches. Why would it be a mortal sin just to be registered a Democrat? I guess this Rhode Island bishop was in mortal sin for 40 years for being a Democrat then, right? Especially because for a long, long time being a Catholic meant being a Democrat.

It’s not like being part of a socialist party (despite what some Democrats want ), which has always been antithetical to Catholicism, and how they were prevalent in countries where the opposition was a Catholic party.

Note that I said “support” the Party. Just being registered Democratic, no that isn’t mortal sin. But your comment about the bishop is telling, in the opposite way you believe. The bishop realized that even being registered with the Democrats has become problematic for Christians. Their party platform and policies are sooooo contrary to the Christian faith that even being associated with it is trouble.

I don’t know his voting pattern, so I can’t say anything about him otherwise. But for those who continue to support the Party, and for those that continue to vote for Democrats, you ARE cooperating with evil. Even voting for pro-life Democrats is problematic, because even though they may be pro-life (which is debatable) they vote to keep in power their leadership which is staunchly pro-death, and their Party continues to push for objective evils which Christians cannot participate and must oppose.

 

[CrossofChrist]

Note that I said “support” the Party. Just being registered Democratic, no that isn’t mortal sin.

My bad. I didn’t interpret your post that way.

But your comment about the bishop is telling, in the opposite way you believe. The bishop realized that even being registered with the Democrats has become problematic for Christians. Their party platform and policies are sooooo contrary to the Christian faith that even being associated with it is trouble.

I don’t know his voting pattern, so I can’t say anything about him otherwise. But for those who continue to support the Party, and for those that continue to vote for Democrats, you ARE cooperating with evil.

We agree so far.

Even voting for pro-life Democrats is problematic, because even though they may be pro-life (which is debatable) they vote to keep in power their leadership which is staunchly pro-death, and their Party continues to push for objective evils which Christians cannot participate and must oppose.

Not necessarily. There are still some pro-life Democrats with a spine (e.g McIntyre). But generally I agree, since at this point the Democrats seem to be beyond the point of no return for support of the culture of death, and as Archbishop Burke noted, prolife Democrats are “exceedingly rare”. I maintain that it is, at this moment in time, slightly different if one is a constituent who is registered Democrat. I assume that there are still many people registered Democratic who are prolife but don’t vote Democratic very often, if ever.

 

[SuperLuigi]

Tobin was very vocal about the Church’s opposition to gay marriage:
Courageous Priest blog
Official statement on RI Senate Action
Catholic League: Bishop Tobin defends Marriage
National Catholic Register praised Bishop Tobin’s opposition to gay marriage
EWTN article on Bishop Tobin’s opposition to gay marriage

Tobin was being humble when he said it was his failure. He certainly had the fortitude to bring the issue to the public.

What I said was if he starts publicly attacking politicians personally/individually he risks having it blow up in his face.

That sounds like a fair point. The reality is that moving from a more pastoral one to one of confrontation is what the other wants and plays into their hands.

It comes with the overall entitlement mentality that is destroying this nation.

Besides, it probably wouldn’t do much good. What we need to do is focus on reaching people and having an influence on the culture instead of wasting time excessively by going after politicians.

It’s the slow, patient way that will of course allow personal selfishness to do more damage, but it may be the right approach.

I feel it’s not the role of the clergy to do that the manner you are talking about.

 

[SuperLuigi]

My bad. I didn’t interpret your post that way.

We agree so far.

Not necessarily. There are still some pro-life Democrats with a spine (e.g McIntyre). But generally I agree, since at this point the Democrats seem to be beyond the point of no return for support of the culture of death, and as Archbishop Burke noted, prolife Democrats are “exceedingly rare”. I maintain that it is, at this moment in time, slightly different if one is a constituent who is registered Democrat. I assume that there are still many people registered Democratic who are prolife but don’t vote Democratic very often, if ever.

In this day and age I cannot trust the Democratic Party. But that doesn’t mean the RNC is the greatest thing since sliced bread, either.

If democrat voters and politicians were serious about their faith, they should be fighting and fighting hard to change the party platform.

But I don’t see it.

 

[jediknight]

Rhode Island bishop regrets failure to stop same-sex "marriage"
catholicculture.org/news/headlines/index.cfm?storyid=18748

well, duh…

In each of the states where legislators are pushing same-sex “marriage” the bishops should require every priest and deacon to preach often about what marriage is and why the gay agenda to re-shape the culture must be curtailed. They should be rallying Catholics to protest in numbers so large that traffic is jammed up. Politicians don’t want to hear from the Catholic hierarchy. But it is essential that the Catholic hierarchy be heard by Catholics. Catholic laity must be convinced how important it is to bring our faith to the public square. We are not doing our jobs to help Jesus to build up His Kingdom here on earth. Bishops, priests, and deacons, please help Catholics to better understand the role they must take to help defend and preserve marriage.

someone could also remind this particular Bishop that it isn’t a failure until he stops trying to make the necessary changes. Though in regards to bringing our faith to the public square , even in the realm of protesting, you got to figure in most Catholics are only spending 1 hour on Sunday, so that is 1 hour to have the faithful’s attention then with in that hour the allotted time to speak via a homily, that is if the Gospel co insides with the issue at hand, then one has to get into pretty much teaching clergy how to become a sort of activist leader if one wants to see protesting and or the faithful bringing up a message in public, so how does one teach clergy to go beyond being a leader of the faith to entering into the realm of politics, because it is becoming more an more a political issue not a religious issue.

There is a natural moral sense in our country where SSM is not acceptable, yet you have activist groups for homosexuals who are non stop working around the clock to get their message out via ad campaigns and by help from politicians to work 100% against religion; or rather that it is not only acceptable to be homosexual, and " normal " but now it must be a " right " that they are given the same status as heterosexuals in the rite of marriage, why, because they are blinded from the Truth and constantly manipulated by a government to fit into what ever agenda they may have.

I would not go as far as to say the Church has failed in this regard, but merely that the Church and / or Clergy have a very big fight on their hands so if anything the Church needs to upgrade the methods in which they are educating the faithful, and leading the faithful to act in their votes.

 

[jediknight]

it is not a sin to be a democrat

it should be.

 

[jediknight]

In this day and age I cannot trust the Democratic Party. But that doesn’t mean the RNC is the greatest thing since sliced bread, either.

If democrat voters and politicians were serious about their faith, they should be fighting and fighting hard to change the party platform.

But I don’t see it.

I can agree with that statement but would add that the Republican Party is equal to blame for the shape of our country but is the lesser of two evils.

Two political parties running the country with one agenda, does not fair well for the people or the faithful of our country.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

The Church is playing this game 1000 times slower than the media and the left. You are hearing a lot of regret now for stuff that should have been said, done and taught when it mattered. It is a little late for Bishops to start talking about elections, ballot measures and Political party membership. They all ran scared during the last few elections. And now they wonder why things like the HHS mandate and gay marriage are being forced upon them. Go figure. In America, we speak out BEFORE the election not after. At least that is the way it used to be.

 

[april32010]

lifesitenews.com/news/the-revolution-of-the-family-the-marxist-roots-of-homosexualism

Many people are scratching their heads and asking how we have suddenly found ourselves at the point where two men can be “married,” a woman can be called a “husband” and a man, a “wife,” and children are reduced to political bargaining chips in the adoption wars, when it seems just yesterday we were only talking about equal rights. Since when do “equal rights” mean deconstructing, dismantling, these foundational social concepts?

“equality,” is never going to be enough; what is needed is a total social revolution, a complete reordering of civilisation. Reform, it said, “cannot change the deep-down attitude of straight people that homosexuality is at best inferior to their own way of life, at worst a sickening perversion. It will take more than reforms to change this attitude, because it is rooted in our society’s most basic institution - the Patriarchal Family.”

Far from being “the source of our happiness and comfort,” it says, the family is the oppressive “unit” in which the “dominant man and submissive woman” teach children “false beliefs” about traditional “gender roles” “almost before we can talk”.

The core concept of gender ideology is given: there is “no proven systematic differences between male and female, apart from the obvious biological ones. Male and female genitals and reproductive systems are different, and so are certain other physical characteristics, but all differences of temperament, aptitudes and so on, are the result of upbringing and social pressures. They are not inborn.”

“Human beings could be much more various than our constricted patterns of ‘masculine’ and ‘feminine’ permit - we should be free to develop with greater individuality.”

 

[livingwordunity]

The Church is playing this game 1000 times slower than the media and the left. You are hearing a lot of regret now for stuff that should have been said, done and taught when it mattered. It is a little late for Bishops to start talking about elections, ballot measures and Political party membership. They all ran scared during the last few elections. And now they wonder why things like the HHS mandate and gay marriage are being forced upon them. Go figure. In America, we speak out BEFORE the election not after. At least that is the way it used to be.

The bishops did speak out, and we’ve had two Fortnight for Freedom campaigns. But the media countered by ignoring the bishops and giving a lot of TV airtime to dissident Catholics who were on team Obama.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

The bishops did speak out, but the media countered by ignoring the bishops giving a lot of TV airtime to dissident Catholics.

My bishop did not. Where did they speak out? Where are they leading and teaching the flocks?

 

[livingwordunity]

My bishop did not. Where did they speak out? Where are they leading and teaching the flocks?

From what I remember, 100% of U.S. bishops came out strongly against Obama’s HHS mandate, and we’ve had two Fortnight for Freedom campaigns so far which were led by the USCCB. I was at the National Shrine in Washington D.C. for the first Fortnight for Freedom campaign. The Catholic Church has the truth, but the media has the power of propaganda. It’s a spiritual struggle of light vs darkness.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

From what I remember, 100% of U.S. bishops came out strongly against Obama’s HHS mandate, and we’ve had two Fortnight for Freedom campaigns so far which were led by the USCCB. I was at the National Shrine in Washington D.C. for the first Fortnight for Freedom campaign. The Catholic Church has the truth, but the media has the power of propaganda.

If you think there could be no improvement on the Bishops stand then I guess I don’t know what to say. The title of this thread talks about a Bishops regret. This regret is one many Bishops should have and I hope they learn from it. I don’t think Bishops even think the way that the secular world does. And it shows. They are in a battle for souls and they are playing defense all the time. This has been a problem for years. Just look at the recent bishop who spoke out against the Dem party. It is 2013. He is just now figuring out the pro choice anti religion, pro gay marriage platforms of the Dem party?

To be fair a Bishop is not a politician and I do not expect them to be politically savvy but I do expect bravery and Truth to be spoken often. Honestly though, it is too little too late. This battle is lost.

 

[jediknight]

If you think there could be no improvement on the Bishops stand then I guess I don’t know what to say. The title of this thread talks about a Bishops regret. This regret is one many Bishops should have and I hope they learn from it. I don’t think Bishops even think the way that the secular world does. And it shows. They are in a battle for souls and they are playing defense all the time. This has been a problem for years. Just look at the recent bishop who spoke out against the Dem party. It is 2013. He is just now figuring out the pro choice anti religion, pro gay marriage platforms of the Dem party?

To be fair a Bishop is not a politician and I do not expect them to be politically savvy but I do expect bravery and Truth to be spoken often. Honestly though, it is too little too late. This battle is lost.

That is the problem, Clergy of any rank can not from what I understand go on any political side nor " bashing " , for fear of losing tax exempt status or coming under fire of the debated state vs religion clauses/ laws we have in our Constitution and or Bill of Rights. ( The law on the matter is very simple yet one can always rely on our current politicians and media to make a mountain out of a mole hill, the only thing they don’t debate is the meaning of traffic lights and stop signs ).

But then we are now asking our clergy to play two roles, in a sense to become political activists and to be our spiritual leaders, I do not see how they can be both roles.

The battle isn’t lost, the war is far from over, and the Truth has always , always been spoken about, the problem is us, we of the faith have not been listening, we didn’t listen early enough, we didn’t act soon enough, The problems we face are our problems, our clergy did not create the problems, what are they to do, lead us by the hand and spoon feed us ? The same goes for our country, the problems we face are because " we the people " are being led by the nose by our own elected government, and " we the people " keep voting in the exact same people into office every single election be it on a national or local level, and then turn around and complain about how horrible the person is that we voted in.

so what do we do ? we go on line an complain more often than not, instead of asking what can I do to help, we look to point the finger at someone else to blame, same goes for me I do the same thing I have issues with my neighbor so I complain, instead of going over an talking I avoid confrontation, an thus what ever issues I have are of my own creation.

If enough Christians and Catholics came together and thus created some kind of petition to a local bishop to walk with them or join them in talking to a politician or join in on a march for cause such as this, I would imagine that bishop would want to, but how many of us are doing that ?

So what have now is a broken system in our government, which in turn can not be fixed by voting, two parties are to blame, one more than the other, and until we the people want to make a real change founded on real hope, it is just going to keep on going like it is.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

That is the problem, Clergy of any rank can not from what I understand go on any political side nor " bashing " , for fear of losing tax exempt status or coming under fire of the debated state vs religion clauses/ laws we have in our Constitution and or Bill of Rights. ( The law on the matter is very simple yet one can always rely on our current politicians and media to make a mountain out of a mole hill, the only thing they don’t debate is the meaning of traffic lights and stop signs ).

But then we are now asking our clergy to play two roles, in a sense to become political activists and to be our spiritual leaders, I do not see how they can be both roles.

The battle isn’t lost, the war is far from over, and the Truth has always , always been spoken about, the problem is us, we of the faith have not been listening, we didn’t listen early enough, we didn’t act soon enough, The problems we face are our problems, our clergy did not create the problems, what are they to do, lead us by the hand and spoon feed us ? The same goes for our country, the problems we face are because " we the people " are being led by the nose by our own elected government, and " we the people " keep voting in the exact same people into office every single election be it on a national or local level, and then turn around and complain about how horrible the person is that we voted in.

so what do we do ? we go on line an complain more often than not, instead of asking what can I do to help, we look to point the finger at someone else to blame, same goes for me I do the same thing I have issues with my neighbor so I complain, instead of going over an talking I avoid confrontation, an thus what ever issues I have are of my own creation.

If enough Christians and Catholics came together and thus created some kind of petition to a local bishop to walk with them or join them in talking to a politician or join in on a march for cause such as this, I would imagine that bishop would want to, but how many of us are doing that ?

So what have now is a broken system in our government, which in turn can not be fixed by voting, two parties are to blame, one more than the other, and until we the people want to make a real change founded on real hope, it is just going to keep on going like it is.

Deep down I know all of that. But I am so frustrated. I honestly do not think this idea that “tax” exempt status has ever been challenged. We know that the IRS bullied some organizations lately But still. One cannot help but notice that certain african american or liberal churches get down right political and advocate many many things from their puilpits and no one dares say a thing. Think about the Rev Wright, Jesse Jackson speaks at Churches all the time. It is scary to think what has happened in this country so fast that an organization as big as the Catholic Church has been effectively silenced in supposedly the country that freedom is all about!
I also find it frustrating that the Church, and even some loosely affiliated Church groups are effectively silenced by some sort of tax code that has never ever been tested. I honestly believe that the courts would never uphold such a blatant attack on the Church by the state. However the entire government including the courts have done some pretty scary things lately so there may be a time in the near future where the Church cannot speak freely. But really it is only a government and it’s power over the Church cannot be recognized. Our Church was born in a situation that was not only not tax exempt, but that people were mayrtered for. And yet we cower before the mere threat of some misinterpreted idea of freedom of/from religion. IF the CHurch in her wisdom with her princes in the US decide that now is not the time to force the government’s hand. Fine. But for the love of Pete, if I hear one more watered down “40 days of Freedom” language with some vague reference to some sort of “Life” issue I am going to puke. Bishops, Priests, and all Catholics should be shouting the Gospel to this world. Instead, some of us get only vague references about praying for all religions to be respected. Half of the parish has no idea what that means and probably interprets it as a condemnation about foreign wars in Islamic countries, (which by the way did not stop several parishes I used to go to during the Bush years from talking politically against the war.) I remember one priest yelled that it was diabolical and how excited he was for all of us to vote for Obama in 2008. In Mass.
Sorry for the tirade I am just so frustrated that a majority of identifying Catholics vote for their own destruction and the destruction of families and the unborn. Yet people are still saying that the Church is doing all it can. We could start at home and instruct our own members and we should be led in this by our Shepards who seem to be chasing the wolves when they already have sheep in their mouths.

I want to add that while I might be frustrated I absolutely respect and love our Bishops. Even the ones who I do not see eye to eye with. And little old me has no idea the pressures or even the knowledge of the subjects like they do. We are blessed to have them but I am scared for my kids and myself. And when I am scared I look to the Church and her Bishops and fathers to protect me. Without sounding too corny I feel like a kid yelling “daddy, help!”

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

, our clergy did not create the problems, what are they to do, lead us by the hand and spoon feed us ?

But some of the clergy did create the problems. Because of some clergy the Church has lost a moral voice in society and even among her own members. Not to mention the amount of clergy that advocate for “the other side”
I am not kidding when I say this. In my old diocese our bishop sent out a letter read at every single Mass in every single parish in the diocese about how we should support the new healthcare law. Less than a year later a letter from the bishop that appeared in the paper and was read in the conservative parishes that said we should pray for the HHS mandate to be changed.

And if you remember I think it was Cardinal Dolan who was told by the prez that he would not seek to enforce the HS mandate. He was boldfaced lied to. Honestly I think the Church in all her charity can forget that she might be speaking to the devil.

 

[CaptFun]

it is not a sin to be a democrat

It may be the Newtonian Law ***inverse ***of the old Irish saying:

“It is not a sin … not to be Irish. But it is a great pity.” :sad_yes: .

On another front is such reasoning valid and true? In all cases?

Substitute: Mason. Klansman. Abortionist. Misogynist. Misanthropist. Communist.

Some of which have official documents or rules vitiating against some others in violation of love thy neighbor.

Can we say without a doubt that “it is not a sin to belong to such organizations?”

It might be interesting to rank these in the order of which is doing the most actual sinful harm in the world right now. And officially committed to doing so. Though with artful justifications explaining why their doing so is a justified exception to the rule (if they bother to).

Then too, Jesus dined with sinners. He though was trying to convert them.

A good person might try to shine some light in even these dark places, and truly enough “not be sinning”.

But on the “lead us not into temptation” front. It might be wise not to hang in bad company.

Or be in places where one compromises with even intrinsic evils in order to “do other good things” the group claims to be doing.

I made the same move Bishop Tobin did. Possibly for the some of the same reasons.
It is not so much that my option to join another party was due to the ethereal virtues of ITS leadership … it is rather because it seems to be the best I can do morally and practically (in that order).

If an outstanding person for an office is the best person to represent me, I consider voting for that person even if he/she is not a member of my party. I’ve done this. But I’ve also sen “my candidate” from a third party FAR from “close to being elected” … while the worst choice IMO, got elected by a few votes. And my support for the runner up might have made a (little but better) difference.

I guess I took a long ride around the block to get to answer your one-liner with:

“Wait. It *might *be …”

- ***"Let me read that platform ONE more time " ***??!