Rich Clergy?

[Benedict16]

The Vatican is very wealthy.
time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,833509,00.html
nationsencyclopedia.com/economies/Europe/Vatican-City-POVERTY-AND-WEALTH.html

That that wealth has been accumulated over time does not make it irrelevant or somehow more inherently “pure”. A great many wealthy families are so because of wealth accumulated over generations and a great many of those are great philanthropists, as are many folks who have made their own fortunes.

The Pope does indeed control a vast amount of resources and can hardly be said to be living the lifestyle of a homeless person in Bangladesh or even a subsistence farmer in Appalachia or an inner-city single mother in Detroit. I doubt that the Pope has to worry about where his next meal is coming from, if he is going to have to live in the Popemobile (or buy gas for it) because he couldn’t pay the rent or whether he can afford to pay for his medication or health care.

To claim he lives in poverty would be disingenuous. That is not to say that he therefore lives a flamboyant, jetsetting lifestyle misusing funds either.

Are you being metaphorical or do you mean that some televangelists actually have gold thrones? Not having access to broadcast TV or cable (or being Christian), I haven’t paid much attention to them in recent years, but none of the ones I saw growing up and into my adulthood did so (my family was very into a number of televangelists). Given some of them, it wouldn’t totally surprise me, however.

No argument here that one should not divert funds given to other purposes for one’s own use, if that is indeed what Benny Hinn does (I do not know). I am singularly unimpressed overall with any of the televangelists. However, Benny Hinn is no more representative of the lifestyle of most Protestant clergy than Tom Cruise or Bill Gates are representative of the lifestyles of most Americans. As to that, the Pope is also not representative of the lifestyle of most Catholic clergy.

It is possible to serve when one knows where one’s food and shelter are coming from as well as when one is living in poverty. In fact, I would hazard a guess that it might enable one to serve more effectively.

But the pope is the successor of St. Peter who sits on the chair of such. Where does your pastor sit, on the chair of officemax?
Also for one as yourself to say that you don’t know if Benny Hinn is real or not really disturbs me. Please do not bash my pope. He is a pope with an unbroken link of 2,000 years. Where is Unitarian Universalist’s history?? Do you know?

 

[puzzleannie]

As far as I know, clergy are supposed to live in poverty, but that doesn’t mean they do not have money. I did work for a nun and she had a bank account, albeit very little money. I

number one nuns are not clergy, they are professed religious. number two, unless a priest or religious belongs to an order which requires a vow of poverty, there is not proviso that they are “supposed” to live in poverty, but there is an expectation that every aspect of their lifestyle will be modest. They are not prohibited from having bank accounts, and indeed as I say are expected to provide for their own retirement from current income.

except for a few oders of Anglican monks or nuns, I don’t think there is any Protestant sect that requires a vow of poverty, so as long as their clergy are not violating civil or criminal or tax laws with regard to their finances and that of their congregation, they are free to live as they see fit.

If you want to accuse a particular public figure, clergy or not, of wrongdoing you had better be prepared to defend yourself against a lawsuit for slander or libel, and such accusations have no place on a Christian discussion forum.

 

[KarenNC]

But the pope is the successor of St. Peter who sits on the chair of such. Where does your pastor sit, on the chair of officemax?
Also for one as yourself to say that you don’t know if Benny Hinn is real or not really disturbs me. Please do not bash my pope. He is a pope with an unbroken link of 2,000 years. Where is Unitarian Universalist’s history?? Do you know?

What in the world are you going on about? In what way am I bashing the Pope to say that he is not living in poverty? It is a simple observable fact. People who are living in poverty do not travel by private airplane, employ a huge staff including bodyguards, head their own country, enjoy the level of health care and other benefits, etc that the Pope does. Whether it is his personal income or not does not affect the fact that he is simply and observably not living the lifestyle of a poor person, even by Western standards (by world standards, even the poor in most Western countries are wealthy). I also said that there was no reason he should be, any more than any other head of state.

I did not say that I “don’t know if Benny Hinn is real or not”. I know that he is a real person and a televangelist. I said I do not know personally whether he is using funds for his own personal use that are legally designated to other purposes. It is entirely possible that people are giving him money with no such strings attached, in which case his personal use of them would not, as I understand it, be technically illegal, regardless of what I think about his practices or the gullibility of the folks involved. I do not approve of him or his lifestyle and apparent choices, but then I don’t approve of the lifestyle and apparent choices of many celebrities.

I am quite familiar with Unitarian Universalist history, thanks.

 

[Maxply]

Karen’t right: the pope’s not having a hard time.

it IS interesting, however, those comments about John Paul 2’s personal apartments, the comments that came out after his death. . . to wit, that the place was falling apart, very austere and not kept up. I remember being told that there are palaces in Venice that look great from the outside, but are falling apart on the inside, and that came to mind hearing about the pope’s apartment.

But the pope doesn’t live hand to fist. I do think any serious metric about Vatican wealth has to account for discretionary cash flow and subtract things such as the value of the Vatican archives, various church fixtures, etc.

Interestingly, there was a million dollar Christmas production in one of my area’s megachurches. ONE MILLION DOLLARS! That flipped me out, but then, it’s always the Catholic Church that gets accused of living the on the ritz. (Perhaps just because of the glitzy priest robes!)

 

[KarenNC]

Interestingly, there was a million dollar Christmas production in one of my area’s megachurches. ONE MILLION DOLLARS! That flipped me out, but then, it’s always the Catholic Church that gets accused of living the on the ritz. (Perhaps just because of the glitzy priest robes!)

Don’t mistake me, I don’t think that spending huge amounts on things that are primarily for show is a good idea or in keeping with the core teachings of Christianity, regardless of whether one is Catholic or Protestant. I also, however, don’t think that one has to run around in rags or denying one’s family a decent standard of living just to prove how much more pious or righteous one is than “those people”. That is just as much about show as the other.

Honestly, I have never really heard much in the way of accusing the Catholic Church of “living on the ritz” nor assumed that most Catholic priests were rolling in a life of luxury. Such criticism is usually aimed at the televangelists and leaders of the megachurches. Could be at least partially due to the fact that while I don’t live in a area with a lot of Catholics, I did grow up in PTL country (Jim and Tammy Bakker).

I disagree with the Catholic Church on a great many things (surprise !), but its charitable work with and concern for the poor and other disadvantaged groups is not usually one of them.

 

[Alexius]

number one nuns are not clergy, they are professed religious. number two, unless a priest or religious belongs to an order which requires a vow of poverty, there is not proviso that they are “supposed” to live in poverty, but there is an expectation that every aspect of their lifestyle will be modest. They are not prohibited from having bank accounts, and indeed as I say are expected to provide for their own retirement from current income.

except for a few oders of Anglican monks or nuns, I don’t think there is any Protestant sect that requires a vow of poverty, so as long as their clergy are not violating civil or criminal or tax laws with regard to their finances and that of their congregation, they are free to live as they see fit.

If you want to accuse a particular public figure, clergy or not, of wrongdoing you had better be prepared to defend yourself against a lawsuit for slander or libel, and such accusations have no place on a Christian discussion forum.

Huh? I never accused anyone… I mentioned the nunto say that it is permitted and necessary for some to have alittle money for the future and for a car, etc.

Prayers and petitions,
Alexius

 

[puzzleannie]

Huh? I never accused anyone… I mentioned the nunto say that it is permitted and necessary for some to have alittle money for the future and for a car, etc.

Prayers and petitions,
Alexius

I used “you” in the plural, referring to posters who have named certain televangelists and made specific accusations against them on this thread and others.

what is the point of this thread, which began with false assumptions and generalizations, and has gone nowhere since then?

 

[james_dillaplai]

Well you must also take it into the context of the op (me) i hear of protestants saying that you should give your money to the poor yet i see alot of the protestant clergy here have very nice houses, better than most families here also I’m 16 I’m a sophomore in high school so i will make generalizations of what i see also i was never taught that all Catholic priests didnt take a vow of poverty. so alot of the assumptions i made were made by my surroundings and apparently false knowledge

 

[Pwrlftr]

Well you must also take it into the context of the op (me) i hear of protestants saying that you should give your money to the poor yet i see alot of the protestant clergy here have very nice houses, better than most families here

You say “alot of the protestant clergy” have very nice houses. How many of the protestant clergy are you familiar enough with to know where they live?

I have no idea where you live but so what if they (the clergy) do have nicer houses than x% of the people in whatever town you live in?

 

[james_dillaplai]

i live in Cedar Park,Texas its outside of Austin and by Roundrock and i would say they live better than 55-65% of most people here

 

[love4mary]

The pastor in my parish, in fact all priests in my diocese makes $12.900 a year, as per 2006. This income IS taxable.

 

[Pwrlftr]

i live in Cedar Park,Texas its outside of Austin and by Roundrock and i would say they live better than 55-65% of most people here

James,

They are supported by their church so I guess their church is happy paying them whatever wage they make.

God blessed folks like Abraham and Solomon with great wealth, I guess we should be happy for those folks.

 

[KarenNC]

i live in Cedar Park,Texas its outside of Austin and by Roundrock and i would say they live better than 55-65% of most people here

So that would mean they are about in the middle for the area? It doesn’t sound on the face of it as if they are way out of proportion for professionals in the area. It sounds like you assume that in order to give to the poor “enough”, one must have the appearance of poverty as well, and I am not sure why you think that or why the ministers are held to a higher expectation of this than the congregants.

A minister is a professional, often in charge of a staff, on call basically 24/7 for the needs of the congregation—weddings, funerals, baptisms, hospital visits, counseling, handling the day to day business of keeping the church open, managing volunteers, etc. beyond what one sees on Sunday morning or Wednesday night. Most denominations require seminary education beyond an undergraduate degree and that does not come cheaply (nor is it usually paid by the church). Most ministers have families to support, children to feed, clothe, educate, etc. It is a job and the larger the congregation, the bigger the job and usually the bigger the paycheck to go along with the larger responsibility. They basically function as the CEO of a company.

The following is a chart of compensation for Southern Baptist ministers in Texas, compared to Southern Baptist minister nationwide, that will give an idea of where those in that denomination fall.
baptiststandard.com/2002/8_5/pages/wageschart.pdf

You can then compare this to the average household income in Cedar Park, Texas, which is $69,500
city-data.com/city/Cedar-Park-Texas.html

Their education probably puts them in the 8.1% of the population of the area with a graduate or professional degree.

Outward apperance does not always give as accurate a picture as one might think. Consider a few things:
Do you know whether their wives are working and also contributing income to the family?

Do you know how much of their salary they give to support the church (our minister makes a pledge just like all other members), to other charities, and how that compares to others in your town who are making about the same? How much of their time is given pro bono to charitable causes?

Do you know whether those ministers actually own or are renting the home? Do you know how many of those houses are actually owned by the churches rather than the individual minister? It’s not as common as it used to be for a church to own a manse that is used for housing the minister, but it still exists, and the manse may not be located next door to the church. If they are renting, it might be property owned by a church member who is offering it to them or the church at a below market rate to get a tax write-off.

Even if the minister owns the home, realize the he or she may have used proceeds from the sale of a previous home as part of the purchase. I know in our area, we have folks buying and building enormous houses, some that are listed at twice the price of mine, though their incomes may not be any higher. They made huge profits on selling their houses up North (sometimes double or even triple what they paid for them originally) and with the capital gains tax laws, had to put that back into a dwelling or pay substantial taxes on it. A lot of those folks also bought houses on interest only loans when the market was good and live with much more credit debt than one might think (and, no, ministers are not immune to this).

Things are rarely as straightforward as one might think.

 

[BrianH]

i live in Cedar Park,Texas its outside of Austin and by Roundrock and i would say they live better than 55-65% of most people here

Sure, they ususally have college degrees and around 40k in loans if they go to a ATS seminary James. It is up to each church to determine what they pay their pastor. In my conference, the lowest salary can be 32k. The highest is in the 90’s but that is what professionals make with similiar education.
I would be careful about judging what others make without the background of how other denominations view this matter.
Absolutely their are a few clergy that make salaries that are out of proportion. But I am a libertartian about such matters and if people are dumb enough to send money to rich people, that is their problem.
Yes, I am sure in general Catholic clergy make less. They also do not have families to support but they know what they are going to make going into this.
I will also tell you that priests I have seen at the hospital, which I was at every night for many months recently, had nice cars. I do not begrudge them that at all, they work hard I am sure and heck you need to be able to get to where you are going without breaking down!

 

[Chellow]

The only Rich Clergy are all the hypocritical Clergy that tell you to tithe 10%. The practice of 10% tithe is used only in the Old Testament. The New Testament scriptures seem to teaches a concept of giving what you can afford to give, similar to what we do as Catholics.

 

[O.S.Luke]

The only Rich Clergy are all the hypocritical Clergy that tell you to tithe 10%.

I don’t know that that is a true statement - most United Methodist Churches that I know of encourage (not mandate) a tithe of 10%, as do I. I have many church members who do so, and I offer a tithe of 10% as well. I have some church members who give more than 10%, and or course many who give less.

UMC’s support missional causes here and abroad, as well as prep schools, colleges, universities, hospitals, etc., just as Catholicism does. Many local churches also run soup kitchens, thrift stores, and food pantries. Most local churches give 15-20% of their church budgets to such causes.

America is a wealthy nation - and we are also a greedy, narcissistic, and materialistic nation. Sometimes people need to be challenged to recognize that what we have is not really ours - it is ultimately God’s, and we are trustees. But giving our money is not enough - we also are to give our present, time, and talents to the Body of Christ.

The UMC has an impending clergy shortage, just as the Catholic Church. While clergy salaries in the UMC aren’t bad, when compared to the salaries of other professions with similar educational credentials (minimum of a Master of Divinity degree from an accredited seminary, of which the costs are borne by the student), many young people are swayed away to more lucrative professions.

 

[Chellow]

I don’t know that that is a true statement - most United Methodist Churches that I know of encourage (not mandate) a tithe of 10%, as do I. I have many church members who do so, and I offer a tithe of 10% as well. I have some church members who give more than 10%, and or course many who give less.

UMC’s support missional causes here and abroad, as well as prep schools, colleges, universities, hospitals, etc., just as Catholicism does. Many local churches also run soup kitchens, thrift stores, and food pantries. Most local churches give 15-20% of their church budgets to such causes.

America is a wealthy nation - and we are also a greedy, narcissistic, and materialistic nation. Sometimes people need to be challenged to recognize that what we have is not really ours - it is ultimately God’s, and we are trustees. But giving our money is not enough - we also are to give our present, time, and talents to the Body of Christ.

The UMC has an impending clergy shortage, just as the Catholic Church. While clergy salaries in the UMC aren’t bad, when compared to the salaries of other professions with similar educational credentials (minimum of a Master of Divinity degree from an accredited seminary, of which the costs are borne by the student), many young people are swayed away to more lucrative professions.

Your making me feel bad due to what I posted:crying: . If the church returns the money back for good works its great. I often see some Clergy taking the money for them self, and stating like we are held to 10% by the bible. I don’t see we must give that in the New Testament.

Ref: Wikipedia - tithe

 

[O.S.Luke]

Your making me feel bad due to what I posted:crying: . If the church returns the money back for good works its great. I often see some Clergy taking the money for them self, and stating like we are held to 10% by the bible. I don’t see we must give that in the New Testament.

Ref: Wikipedia - tithe

I don’t usually give Wikipedia much credence - but much of it isn’t far off. The biblical tithe usually was agricultural in nature, and the Old Testament involves a culture of mostly agrarian people. Today, our “harvest” is usually our salary.

I think many televangelists and other unscrupulous pastors have guilted people into giving money that they don’t have - and it’s clearly an immoral plea. But by the same token, we often waste and squander much of what God has given us. In response for what Christ has done and continues to do for us, I think a little sacrifice on our part is in order.

Good post, Chellow.

 

[james_dillaplai]

just so people know i do read and appreciate every response i just dont normally respond