Richard Bennett?

[RoryMcKenzie56]

Richard and his wife came to our house, at our invitation, shortly before we were received into the Catholic Church. He is Irish, a former Dominican missionary. I believe he was in the Caribbean Islands when he became acquainted with an appealing form of Pentecostalism in the 70’s. The Church was in a bit of turmoil in those days. I don’t know what young Fr. Bennett retained from his seminary formation, but I would not want to judge him for failing to appreciate the riches that were really his as a Catholic. I don’t think he was ever catechized properly, in spite of being ordained a priest.

In any event, by the mid 90’s he was certain that the Catholic faith was false, in part because of the association of Aristotelian language with Transubstantiation as it developed during the Scholastic Era. I don’t think anyone ever told him that philosophy is the handmaid of theology.

He is not a naturally malicious soul. I had several other encounters with him at churches before and after his visit. He means well. He has merely been deceived. It would seem to me that his apostasy, if you want to call it that, was not so far of a fall as it may seem. It isn’t like this former priest ever understood his faith as a continuous Tradition with an Apostolic pedigree for the length of 2,000 years. It is no surprise that the Bible Christians got to him, and whether it would have been better for him to have continued as a misguided and unbelieving Catholic, who can say?

Rory

 

[Bill_Pick]

Very well said.

well the truth does hurt some times

 

[Mannyfit75]

Very well said.

Ex-Catholics are un-educated and lack faiths. You still have answer the questions, I directed at you?

Since you do want to leave the Church then? Then do you not deny the Real Presence of Jesus Christ, and deny his promised to his Apostles that he will not leave them? That he established the Church upon Peter the Rock? You seem to deny Jesus Christ’s words. You do believe in Jesus and yet your desire to leave the Church does not make your a true believer because you deny the fullness of faith.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Seek after God with all your heart and He will lead you to Himself.
Do not do as many here and seek after a church. Seek God and Him alone and follow Him.

Find a Church that have historical lineage to Jesus Christ and his Apostles. There are no Protestant Churches than can trace their origins to the original Christians. NONE.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Or maybe they came to a different conclusion about their faith. Interesting, whenever a Protestant converts to the Catholic faith Catholics don’t seem to question his motives but, instead, welcome him home and see the conversion as yet another “proof” of the truth of the Catholic Church. But talk about a Catholic who converts to Protestantism and immediately the man is either evil, uneducated or “has issues”.

Because they are ignorant and they don’t know any better. Most Ex-Catholics have a leave the faith because they do not agree with the teachings of the Church or that they had a bad experience, or they feel that don’t feel inspired or even claim that there is lack of the Holy Spirit. Do you expect to go by feelings by leaving the Church? Going by your own feels to leave the Church is selfish and self-centered. Ex-Catholics want to do it their way rather than be trust that Jesus founded a Church.

We do not think Ex-Catholics are evil but misguided Christians who have disagreement with the Church. It kinda pisses me off when an Ex-Catholic, I didn’t know Jesus until I went Bible Study? Like? How can you claim as a Ex-Catholic not to know Jesus when the Church have been teaching you that. Even if the RCIA program teaches that Jesus Christ is the Lord and Savior? You ex-Catholics come up with such stupid excuses, I find it really DUMB that you makes such bold excuses.

It seems to me that Ex-Catholics didn’t know. Who then did you received at Mass when you consumed the Eucharist? Do you not realized the one you received is the Lord himself?

 

[Hisalone]

Find a Church that have historical lineage to Jesus Christ and his Apostles. There are no Protestant Churches than can trace their origins to the original Christians. NONE.

Find God and He will lead you. Again you begin at a false starting point. Start at a point to find God, seek Him. God is living and waits at the door of our hearts. I certainly can trace a spiritual lineage to te apostles.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Seek after God with all your heart and He will lead you to Himself.
Do not do as many here and seek after a church. Seek God and Him alone and follow Him.

It doesn’t get any more personal than received God himself in Holy Communion. Protestant Churches don’t have that. The most they can get is spiritual communion… They consumed the Body and Blood of the Lord… they are held views similiar to Gnostics who deny Jesus being truly present in the Eucharist. Catholics and Eastern Orthodox gets them.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Find God and He will lead you. Again you begin at a false starting point. Start at a point to find God, seek Him. God is living and waits at the door of our hearts. I certainly can trace a spiritual lineage to te apostles.

You do start of with Jesus and see what he had to say during his minister and believed what he said and done. He taught that he build his Church upon the Peter and Apostles. You deny this fact, you don’t really believe what Jesus said and done. How then can you takes part of the Bible and reject some?

None of your ministers were ordained by Bishops who can trace their origins to the Apostles. Your Church break away from historical Christianity and you can trace your church as far back as the Reformers in the 1500s.

 

[Hisalone]

It doesn’t get any more personal than received God himself in Holy Communion. Protestant Churches don’t have that. The most they can get is spiritual communion… They consumed the Body and Blood of the Lord… they are held views similiar to Gnostics who deny Jesus being truly present in the Eucharist. Catholics and Eastern Orthodox gets them.

I have Jesus in the Lords Supper. I have Jesus outside the Lords Supper. Catholics have adopted many pagan practices and have fallen away from Gods intended plan.

 

[Mannyfit75]

I have Jesus in the Lords Supper. I have Jesus outside the Lords Supper. Catholics have adopted many pagan practices and have fallen away from Gods intended plan.

Pagan practices and you don’t? If you are married, the exchange of wedding rings is pagan. So you want to reject them.

You don’t have Jesus period. There is no proof that Catholics have many practices link to paganism. The Seven Sacraments are Biblical and they have been founded by Jesus Christ. You came up with some false ideas about linking Mary with Isis… It would be no better than comparing Jesus to Horus.

 

[Mannyfit75]

and here who go with the Catholic Church having pagan practices what a bunch of lies…rolls eyes

 

[Mannyfit75]

Hisalone,

The claimed that Catholicism is Paganism has been refuted already in this article:

catholic.com/library/Is_Catholicism_Pagan.asp

 

[Bill_Pick]

I have Jesus in the Lords Supper. I have Jesus outside the Lords Supper. Catholics have adopted many pagan practices and have fallen away from Gods intended plan.

Please tell me what PAGAN practiiices the Cathloic Church has adopted, You can not be that ignorant or may be you are, jack Chick is so, you can be also

 

[Mannyfit75]

Please tell me what PAGAN practiiices the Cathloic Church has adopted, You can not be that ignorant or may be you are, jack Chick is so, you can be also

He will probably use Jack Chick and Loettner Boettner… as his prooftext.

 

[Bill_Pick]

Please tell me what PAGAN practiiices the Cathloic Church has adopted, You can not be that ignorant or may be you are, jack Chick is so, you can be also

well lets see talking about pagan practices did you get to worship any snake to night at your church,

 

[LilyM]

Or maybe they came to a different conclusion about their faith. Interesting, whenever a Protestant converts to the Catholic faith Catholics don’t seem to question his motives but, instead, welcome him home and see the conversion as yet another “proof” of the truth of the Catholic Church. But talk about a Catholic who converts to Protestantism and immediately the man is either evil, uneducated or “has issues”.

Hmmm … let’s do a bit of an analogy here.

What say someone, after much study, decided to convert from Islam to a form of Christianity that aligns with your own beliefs. Would you take that as proof that your Christian faith was the correct one and thank God that He had led that person to Himself?

And what, on the other hand, if someone who was a Christian of the same stripe as yourself, after much sincere prayer and study, declared that God in fact wanted them to become Muslim and left Christianity altogether.

What reasons could you give against that person leaving Christianity altogether, that wouldn’t sound exactly like the arguments we’re giving here against this lapsed Catholic abandoning his faith?

 

[Hisalone]

Hisalone,

The claimed that Catholicism is Paganism has been refuted already in this article:

catholic.com/library/Is_Catholicism_Pagan.asp

Catolics are in deep denial about this and other issues.

paganchristianity.org/reviews.htm

 

[Mannyfit75]

Catolics are in deep denial about this and other issues.

paganchristianity.org/reviews.htm

That Book have flaws.

theplanter.blogspot.com/2008/02/pagan-christianity-rebuttal-1.html

 

[Mannyfit75]

Here are the excerpts from that blog just in case you didn’t bother to read it.

In “Pagan Christianity” there are severe flaws that need to be addressed. I’ll just take them one or two at a time in numerous blog posts.

1. The book, written by Viola/Barna, I noted early on an obvious bias for the house church movement. I love to read the work of those who lay out the facts, but I do not appreciate the bias and misrepresentations of New Testament House Churches.

In the defining descriptions of the New Testament Church Viola seems to identify his house church experience with that of the New Testament Church. But there remains an obvious and clear difference between the two. The New Testament Church gathered in obedience to the Great Commission and Christian community grew out of that. The early church GATHERED TO GO into the world and advanced/engaged the mission of Jesus left behind for them to fulfill. In Viola’s description of and perceptions of the early church and his house church involvement the priority is community much like what I see all over America in many forms/models. While many house churches GO TO GATHER as the main thing, a shift is needed and THEY MUST GATHER TO GO so that they engage mission Jesus gave them/us with all power and authority as the risen Christ.

New Testament House Churches were “obedient first” to fulfill the commands of Christ to Go and and make disciples and when they did they experienced true Christian community of the likes few of us have ever experienced…the heart of God.

In Viola’s description we see obedience in community but not obedience to all the commands of Christ, namely the Great Commission, which is something He downplays and discredits as something that is not for all believers. MORE on that later. This will be a steamy post - LATER!

While I am for House Churches and see their wonderful value in reaching the lost and beginning disciple driven movements, they fall far short if they do not Gather to Go. If the GO TO GATHER they are just mere imitations of that which they have left behind in their past expressions of going to Church. If they GO TO GATHER (community)as their priority they are no different and not more effective than what they left. If they GATHER TO GO OUT in Great Commission obedience they become a New Testament movement that will lead to exponential disciple making movements rising out from among them. Only then will we see New Testament resemblance and the true community they long for.

Viola/Barna keep missing the most important result of living in obedience to all the commands of Christ. All Christ followers are responsible to make disciples who make disciples who…

Of course I am guilty of writing with a bias in this rebuttal. That bias is a just engagement of the Scriptural mandate for all Christ followers to reproduce disciples themselves. Viola discredits this command in my context here, and that makes his house church movement nothing more than a copy of the Church where in many places disciples do not/are not making disciples who… A copy is a copy and can be a copy in different expressions.

I love the House Church movement - those who are part of the Body of Christ. I am disappointed that they often fail to realize how beautifully they are poised to engage disciple driven movements as their purpose of making disciples at all costs. When this happens true community like that of which many have never experienced will be enjoyed.

I often wonder why those who claim to obey refuse to really obey. In the Great Commission Jesus said, “and teach them to obey all that I have commanded you.” And He said that after the greatest CO-Mission command ever given from His lips. This command covers the whole of His life and desire for us to “be fruitful and multiply.”

 

[geometer]

Thank you for your replies.

Lazerlike42 you wrote ----***“I’ve never heard or read a Catholic apologist take something out of context.” – ***Now that you mention it - neither have I. – Good point!

Even though all this reading & debating makes my head spin, it is interesting to look at both sides, it just educates me more & prepares me for RCIA.

Mickey - thanks for the link!

But catholics reject John chapter three. The apologists simply take the word water from the text call that baptism and reject everything else that is said. It is definitely not a text about baptisim…