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Samoana90
Guest
Does anyone bother to read what I write? or is it just assumed I am wrong? the church is all perfect. READ MY POSTS… please.
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elvisman
Guest
If you’re angry about your life – and it is abundantly clear that you ARE – don’t blame the Church for it.
Fonts and colors again? How about sticking to the topic?
You’re NOT a priest.
And this is a good chance for you to stop whining about your life and blaming it on the Church for how miserable you feel.
Not happy with your life? PRAY.
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Samoana90
Guest
Yes, yes. Give in to your pride. Like I said, you know nothing of my life. You think I have to be a priest to judge the way certain priests live? I am saying the church should be simplified in some respects. And even if BMW or Mercedes Benz sponsor my diocese (which they don’t,) the bishops shouldn’t be chauffered around in these bloody expensive cars. How can they tell me about giving to the poor when they live in a mansion with maids, cooks and secretaries? or tell me about almsgiving when they buy all the latest technologies for themselves and their homes? I stayed with Franciscans that lived like kings. And the Dominicans in my country have a damn restaurant in their house. (even though there are only like 5 of them.)
You know nothing. For all I know, you are some old man with no friends, spending your all your time on the internet because that’s the only social life you can get. The fonts and colours are very rude. That’s why I am annoyed at you. You’re supposed to be showing Christian charity to me, a ‘lost sheep.’ But instead you are acting like an obnoxious swine. Why don’t you show some respect to me so I can show it back. Show me your ‘Christian love.’ There are a lot of good priests and bishops, no doubt. But there are a lot of them that take advantage of their positions as well. That’s what I’m saying basically.
You know nothing. For all I know, you are some old man with no friends, spending your all your time on the internet because that’s the only social life you can get. The fonts and colours are very rude. That’s why I am annoyed at you. You’re supposed to be showing Christian charity to me, a ‘lost sheep.’ But instead you are acting like an obnoxious swine. Why don’t you show some respect to me so I can show it back. Show me your ‘Christian love.’ There are a lot of good priests and bishops, no doubt. But there are a lot of them that take advantage of their positions as well. That’s what I’m saying basically.
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jilly4ski
Guest
OK I have read what you wrote but did you read what others wrote? I am not just asking rhetorically. People asked you; would rather that bishops had to do their own cleaning and laundry and cooking and do less of their apostolic work? What about the people who rely on that work to earn a decent living? As far as being chauffered, I personally prefer they have someone take them the places they need to be than they have to look up directions, get lost, etc. I bet many read documents and catch up on work in the car. Fancy cars? maybe they were donated by a wealthy parishioner or by their family. Priests, bishops who are not in orders do not take a vow of poverty and therefore might have money from before they joined the priesthood or from inheritances.
So what if they buy expensive vestments (which are used for the greater glory of God). These more expensive vestments will probably last them for most of their career and therefore be a good investment, so they don’t have to buy vestments every 10 years or more.
The mansions you talk about (more than likely) belong to the church and will be available for the next bishop and so forth. Most of these houses are already close to 100 years old or more, and were donated to the church. Generally many people live in these mansions or they are used as offices. Where I live the old Cathedral rectory is used as a residence for at least 4 priests and the dioceses offices and the parish offices, and is in desperate need of a new roof. But if the priests didn’t live there where would they live? Because they live in the rectory they have instant access to the church. If they wanted to live close to this church (which is downtown) where else would they live, they would either be far away or pay a lot in rent and taxes.
I went to a Benedictine University and yes the monks and nuns ate well and lived comfortably. However, they were all of a decent weight (ie they didn’t eat too much) and most are over 60. Where you come from it doesn’t sound like people live very well at all (living in huts). But do we really begrudge a bunch of old people living with enough to eat and a place to sleep?
As far as the latest technology, Priests need to stay current in the church, the world, and their own parish. The internet/computer and a cell phone would be almost a necessity now days. A priest would use these things to research for their homilies or about issues in the church like marriage/annulments, (cheaper than owning a ton of books) have parishioners call for sacraments, keep up with the administration and office stuff.
I am sorry if I come off a little harsh, but I am just confused why you are so upset about this.
Greed and envy are serious sins. You seem upset because these holy men have more than you did growing up and more than what people you know have.These men work a lot and deserve to get paid even if it isn’t with a salary and is with perks like a house to live in or a car to drive.
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elvisman
Guest
Like I said - keep whining, if you wish but don’t blame the Church because you’re miserable and envious.
I would gladly support the idea of my Pastor having a personal cook because of all of the work he does serving 20,000 parishioners. The fact that he hasn’t dropped dead from sheer exhaustion is a testament to his faithfulness and the mercy of God.
**You’re only annoyed because the posters here arent agreeing with your anti-Catholic tirades. **
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Rolltide
Guest
Good grief, Elvisman, I have no wish to bash you, but I’d hardly call Samoana90’s posts an “anti-Catholic tirade”, nor would I call her miserable and envious. She has expressed concerns from her OWN experience, and they should not be belittled. I would agree that some of her concerns, at times, are presented as generalizations for the whole church, and that’s unfair. I would also agree with you that many of her points can be refuted, but one should always remain vigilant for corruption within the church as well. It’s happened at least twice in the past (once prompting the Cluny Reform Movement, and once prompting the Protestant Reformation), so it’s not an unfounded possibility. However, again, I would agree that most of what Samoana90 is stating would not truly classify as all that scandalous.
Honestly, we are all better than the tone this thread is beginning to take.
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tafan
Guest
I don’t think you know what your talking about. The pope’s living quarters are actually quite simple. I know for a fact that Cardinal Ratzinger, before he became pope, walked to the vatican from a simple apartment rented for him everyday. Cardinal Arinze was the same way. I would assume this is fairly standard for all curia officials.
Our bishop, while living in a nice house (my understanding is with 3 other priests) drives himself around in a rather simple car. Our old bishop did the same.
I know of a couple of priests in this diocese who live a little laviously, but only two. All of the priests I know live pretty simple lives and I know they are paid very little.
And none of these men take vows of poverty.
So who are these cardinals being chauffered around in BMWs and Mecedes?
As to the treasures of the Vatican: Why doesn’t anyone ever ask secular governments to sell off their treasures? Can’t we sell all the stuff in the Smithsonians and sell the land in the national parks? This could certainly be used for the poor. Why the double standard?
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St_Francis
Guest
Samoana,
I suspect that you are not in the US (or at least not in my part, where the priests work very hard and live quite simply). I agree with a lot of what has been said here about the reasons for some of the way that priests and bishops live, but I agree with you that some go too far.
And, sadly, that is the way it has always been. Remember that despite all that Christ taught them, one of the apostles betrayed Him and another denied Him, and only one was at the foot of His Cross…
Our priests and bishops need our prayers. Some sin visibly, and some invisibly, but all sin, just we all sin.
*Keep them, I pray Thee, dearest Lord,
Keep them, for they are Thine -
Thy priests whose lives burn out before
Thy consecrated shrine.
Keep them, for they are in the world,
Though from the world apart;
When earthly pleasures tempt, allure,
Shelter them in Thy Heart.
Keep them, and comfort them in hours
Of loneliness and pain,
When all their life of sacrifice
For souls seems but in vain.
Keep them, and O remember, Lord,
They have no one but Thee,
Yet they have only human hearts,
With human frailty.
Keep them as spotless as the Host,
That daily they caress;
Their every thought and word and deed,
Deign, dearest Lord to bless.
*
More prayers for Priests
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elvisman
Guest
**I hear you - but I would disagree with you about this poster not being envious and bitter.
This person IS a whiner and appears to be unhappy with his/her life. It doesn’t take a degree in psychology to see that:
“…when I live in a freaking dump using the library slow **** internet.”
He/she feels that all clergy should wear hair-shirts and live in abject poverty.
I see nothing but a whiner here.**
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Eric_Hilbert
Guest
Get back on topic.
Stop with the childish bickering.
Stop with the childish bickering.
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dmbell
Guest
I’m kinda surprised by the VERY negative feedback the OPer is receiving from his OP… While I am new the the Catholic faith (5 years roughly), I have seen MANY Bishops living, by themselves, but with staff present, in VERY big mansions. Yes, I know they don’t own them, they are only there while they are in the position of Bishop of a See, but I too, question the validity of a Bishop living in such grand fashion . I fully understand the staff being present to do the cooking, cleaning and driving. But not the high cost of maintaining the mansion and such.
I understand that many of the mansions have been donated to the Church, but in most cases the cost of maintaining them (power/etc) was not. And I understand that in many cases the cars used by the Bishops and Cardinals are donated too. But again, the cost of maintaining the land/house/car is an added cost of Church.
This has given me reason for contemplation over the years as well.
And before you say until I give up my time to become a priest, I should not worry about it (which has been said to the OP, who DID give up his time, but left for what I am guessing are these and other reasons), I was a Friar for three years (Ok, two, but one year of Novitiate as well), and was to start Seminary this past August until our Archbishop (one of those that lived by himself in a BIG, EXPENSIVE Mansion) shut the Order down for not being formed correctly in another state 9 years before I ever got to the Order, and for not being supervised properly for the12+ years of the life of the Order. So I DID give up my time for the Lord, and would again, if these Orders out there would take someone in their late 40s…
In Christ,
Don
I understand that many of the mansions have been donated to the Church, but in most cases the cost of maintaining them (power/etc) was not. And I understand that in many cases the cars used by the Bishops and Cardinals are donated too. But again, the cost of maintaining the land/house/car is an added cost of Church.
This has given me reason for contemplation over the years as well.
And before you say until I give up my time to become a priest, I should not worry about it (which has been said to the OP, who DID give up his time, but left for what I am guessing are these and other reasons), I was a Friar for three years (Ok, two, but one year of Novitiate as well), and was to start Seminary this past August until our Archbishop (one of those that lived by himself in a BIG, EXPENSIVE Mansion) shut the Order down for not being formed correctly in another state 9 years before I ever got to the Order, and for not being supervised properly for the12+ years of the life of the Order. So I DID give up my time for the Lord, and would again, if these Orders out there would take someone in their late 40s…
In Christ,
Don
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aperture
Guest
The U.S. government has never claimed to be the path to utter truth and eternal glory. An avowedly secular institution like the U.S. government should not be judged by the same yardstick as the Roman Catholic church.
I’m actually not arguing that priests don’t deserve some nice things. In my opinion, they do some hard work, and deserve a little something for themselves. I’m saying that it seems very weird that the Church can support that when it’s very black-and-white about other things - like, say, sexual morality.
In other words, to say that priests should be able to have some nice stuff for themselves instead of others because their job is hard is a weirdly relativist position. The Catholic Church is the same institution that would ascribe mortal sin to someone who masturbated in an attempt to relieve the stress of a stressful job. Why is the morality suddenly squishy?
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Mikaele
Guest
A good point was raised about religious becoming lax in their effort to follow their rule. What happened to the poor friars? I know an Italian one who drives around in a new Ferrari or BMW every week. And I know that he doesn’t pay for it, but as the person who posted this thread stated- it can be scandalous to see these things with your own eyes. There are some problems in the Church, no doubt she is not perfect. Back home in Samoa, some priests are so obese from all the free food that they can’t even stand up to say Mass, they have to sit in a chair! now these are only a small ammount of instances.
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St_Francis
Guest
My post from last night seems to have gotten lost in cyberspace, so here goes, again.
You seem to be outside the US. Here where I am (in the US), priests work extremely hard and don’t get paid very much. Bishops too. I would say that most of those who go into religious life live in a holy way, but there are some, as you describe, who do not.
We all sin. You see the sins of those particular priests and bishops, but we all sin.
We all need to pray for our priests, who not only do so much for us but who suffer great temptations. Maybe this is a special calling for you as you are very sensitive to what makes for a holy priest.
*A PRAYER FOR PRIESTS
By the late John J Cardinal Carberry
Keep them; I pray Thee, dearest Lord.
Keep them, for they are Thine
The priests whose lives burn out before
Thy consecrated shrine.
Keep them, for they are in the world,
Though from the world apart.
When earthly pleasures tempt, allure –
Shelter them in Thy heart.
Keep them and comfort them in hours
Of loneliness and pain,
When all their life of sacrifice
For souls seems but in vain.
Keep them and remember, Lord,
they have no one but Thee.
Yet, they have only human hearts,
With human frailty.
Keep them as spotless as the Host,
That daily they caress;
Their every thought and word and deed,
Deign, dearest Lord, to bless.*
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Mikaele
Guest
Yes true, I am blessed to say in Sydney that every priest I know is very good. It’s just a rare few that cause scandal.
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tafan
Guest
Maybe you misunderstood the point of my rhetorical question. This issue is not the vatican giving up its vast riches, the issue is preservation of these vast riches. The US governmentand many other institutions) has decided that it is to the benefit of society to preserve the riches in the museums for the benifit of society. It would be condemned by all if it simply sold them off to the highest bidder. I suspect the same would apply to the city of New York and its riches in the Metropolitan Museum, etc. etc. etc. Yet people always want the Vatican to forgoe its responsibilitty along these same lines? It is not a matter of judging by the same yardstick (ie the vatican should be further along the charitble scale than the government), it is a matter of a double standard (ie asking for completely contradictory actions).
Very strange logic indeed. And I wish someone critiizing the vatican for its riches would address the reasoning behind the double standard. They may have one, but simply saying that the vatican should be judged more harshly than a secular government doesn’t address the issue.
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Sailor_Kenshin
Guest
No agenda here, have you? Every so often someone gets on a high horse and states the same question.
Can you hazard a guess at the answers?
You might want to ask who owns those things you are so eager to sell. You might also ask who has the right to sell them.
Do you?
Do you believe in the redistribution of wealth?
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Mikaele
Guest
“And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.”
- I think Samoana90 raised some good points. There are problems in some countries, maybe not so much in the U.S, but in some of the third world countries the disparity of wealth and possessions between the clergy and lay people is disgusting (not always.) And I’m sure some of the mendicant orders can go back to at least appearing a little more mendicant.
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Sailor_Kenshin
Guest
I never personally met a single Bishop, priest or Brother who owned more than a few measly items—trinkets, really, or some books, a decent pair of running shoes, et cetera. Most of them have moms and dads and brothers and sisters and cousins who might give them presents now and then.
Is anyone saying that accepting gifts from family members is somehow wrong?
They don’t own the places in which they live, no more than the Pope owns the Vatican and its treasures.
I guess communism has made some good inroads among Catholics.
Is anyone saying that accepting gifts from family members is somehow wrong?
They don’t own the places in which they live, no more than the Pope owns the Vatican and its treasures.
I guess communism has made some good inroads among Catholics.
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nsper7
Guest
The question is where is the Cardinal’s luxury car or the Bishop’s mansion coming from? Chances are it was donated to them and/or the Church–how else are they getting such goods after all? As long as they are not getting their good through ill-gotten means, then are they not free to enjoy them?
EDIT: I have to ask, why did Samoan leave the Seminary?
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