Rick Warren

[Tigg]

Wow, that link you gave from the Protestant point of view as another page, disgusting, “Hail mary! Hail Satan! Catholicism, mother of harlots!”. Wow. You can always find a Protestant denomination that will give a pantingly long scourging review of another Protestant denomination.

I saw Rick Warren and his wife on EWTN nightly news and I was impressed. He made money on his book, sure, but he and his wife tithe like 90% of their income. He is a man with an incomplete Christian faith in Our Lord Jesus, because he is not blessed to be Catholic. But look at what he is doing with the little he has! A lot! In comparison we are so much richer than he is, because we are Catholic. We have so much more! So how can we stand and judge someone ho has so little compared to us and does so much with it?

Yes, his theology has some error. I also have the booklet, “A Catholic Perspective on the Purpose Driven Life” by Fr. Joseph Champlin. Catholic Book Publishing. Its good for understanding.

I apologize for not perusing that link - I don’t know much about the different Protestant denominations, but this will teach me to read it all before I click. (I actually was interrupted by a phone call) but that is no excuse either. We have Baptist friends who have spoken of Warren and disagree with much of his “theology.” They have more to say than that, but it’s a subject not worthy of this thread.

I do, however, stand by comments from credible Catholic sources that Catholics NEED TO BE cautious. Here is a short piece from the horse’s mouth, **Catholic Answers Magazine **itself:

In an all-too-common tragedy these days, a poorly catechized Catholic attends a worship service at a megachurch, mistakenly believing the worship service simply to be a modern, non-Catholic version of the Mass. The Catholic feels emotionally drawn to the megachurch worship service and decides Mass, in comparison, is boring. A typical view might be, “Wow, I’m being fed here like I’m not being fed at Mass.”

“Something for Everyone”

From a superficial perspective it’s easy to see why ill-informed Catholics can be drawn in so easily. A quick visit to Saddleback’s Web site (saddleback.com) reveals a veritable menu of Sunday worship services to satisfy the taste of just about any self-indulgent seeker.

catholic.com/magazine/articles/worship-the-way-god-commanded

I guess my main concern is how Catholics, who have the richest spiritual treasury in the world, could think they could find something newer or better in Protestantism. Our libraries are crammed with spiritual pearls from the Desert Fathers to the Saints to the writings of the popes. Being in love with my faith and completely fulfilled by the Eucharistic Banquet, I find nothing lacking in the Catholic Church and don’t quite understand why others feel the need to keep searching outside their own faith. I would pray that their core belief be protected, that’s all.

 

[Sandraaustin]

Wow, I never thought opinions on Rick Warren would be such a polarizing issue! It’s funny, most people who can’t stand him have SEEN him preach, speak or give an interview. Those who’ve just read his book or done a Purposeful Life workshop/retreat seem to like him, or at least, they have respect for the guy. Could be something about his presentation, maybe.

So, I googled ‘Protestant complaints about Rick Warren’. Only ONE of the six (Six results applied to the topic) was positive about Warren’s ecumenism, that was The New Yorker website.

FOUR out of six website’s number one complaint was that Rick Warren is hanging out with Catholics! He’s seeing the Pope! Is he a "closet Catholic? And Beware: Protestants Heading Towards Ecumenical Destruction! Again, because of Warren’s Catholic-friendly activities.

There was only ONE website calling out other Protestants for being jealous haters of the man… So much for research.

Finally, someone wanted to know why anyone would leave the Church and look elsewhere. I left the Church for 20 years, mainly because I was poorly catechized–and I went to Catholic School! But I couldn’t defend my faith and when Bible-believing Christians showed me all the Church’s “errors” in black and white, I left, after much searching for answers. They didn’t have the Internet then, or Scott Hahn or any apologetics that I could lay my hands on, so I had to ask other Catholics, who were equally clueless. I argued with my entire family and they called me a heretic. In fact, any “Christian” other than Roman or Orthodox Catholic was a heretic to them.

So I didn’t really know then what I was missing by leaving the Catholic Church. I found a lot of fun, joy, friendships, peace and energy and caring at the mega church. People smiled at me, greeted me, they had activities galore and lots and lots of happy families together… Anyone who’s been there, knows the difference.

Long story short, I started wondering about the Church again when I started to see the cracks in the mega church. HOW could the 2000-year old church be wrong? I prayed for four years - literally every night on my knees, begging God to know the truth. My best friend didn’t know I was going through this, but she got me back by the sheer power of her personality, combined with Scott Hahn and Patrick Madrid books, writings of the early Church fathers and most of all, she evangelized me about Mary and the Eucharist. I’ve been back for 12 years. Traveling to Rome with my mom in 2005 was completely the BEST experience of my life!

I really loved my “Bible Christian” experience! If only we could combine the best of the two --our TRUTH and their LOVE --and this world might have a chance at peace. Jesus prayed for us to be ONE. Amen.

 

[Dorothy]

Yes I read the original many years ago. It was good.
I think I enjoyed rediscovering catholicism better by matthew kelly.

I agree with you. Matthew Kelly writes very good and spotlights Catholicism. The fullness of truth.

 

[Bob_Crowley]

oops! my bad, and I only googled it without proofing but you will get a number of hits from mainline Protestants who oppose his message. I really find it more interesting that you do not acknowledge the article from an accurate Catholic source which lists the reasons why Catholics should be cautious.

It wouldn’t matter what message you spread in Protestant circles, you’d be opposed by some of them. They’re so divided in some ways.

But then I’ve seen something similar in Catholic circles. Pope Francis can utter some views not liked by the conservatives, and the next thing you know there are all these ominous doubts about Pope Francis, mainly from the right. Pope Benedict wasn’t much liked by liberals, Cardinal Newman wasn’t trusted by some Catholics, as he was too much of an Anglican in their books.

As my old pastor used to say, “One bunch of sinnners is pretty much the same as the rest”, and that’s true whether we’re talking about Rick Warren himself, his fans or his detractors.

There is one Protestant writer whom I do find encouraging and that’s Max Lucado. He seems to have more empathy for the under dog, and most of his books focus on encouraging Christians. It’s only in the last year or two I’ve become aware of him.

To be fair, I think the Protestants write a lot more on what might be called “Christian living”. That seems to be the heading under which they sell a lot of books in their bookshops. Whether we always agree with them is another point.

I don’t see many Catholic books on the topic by comparison.

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

Well it was good to that you said that. May God bless you and give you peace. As to issues, Jesus will heal them!* He heals hearts.* Anyway, your post really concerned me. You just cannot know know what they are going through only that it is probably full of far more pain that we can ever know.

Thank you for the post and for the concern. I don’t know what they are going through, and being in the public eye cannot help. That said, I’m pretty sensitive about reading people, especially parents of mentally ill people. I work with mentally ill people online and in person. Now that I’ve kicked mine, I went back to school at age 55 to get a master’s in psychology, so that I may be better equipped to know what I’m talking about, describe it in professionally-acceptable language, and gain credentials. I already know enough to write compare/contrast papers about teachings of Jesus v. scientific literature, and that is one of my goals.

Back to being sensitive about family deaths. I’ve lost my entire birth family, as of a year ago when my mother died; I’d been taking care of her since 2011 when she had a tumor removed and never got completely better, became psychotic and I was 700 miles from home and no local psychiatrist – so I had to wing it, and I did it. Took 11 weeks but I got her back to Wichita just in time for her to have a stroke and need constant attention for 23 more months. And in 2011 that all started when my beloved older brother, who was my biggest cheerleader and fan and critic all at once, was found unexpectedly slumped over his computer, only two months prior. So that’s it for my family, and last month we started in on my wife’s, with the untimely death of her 52 year old sister who had been institutionalized with schizophrenia for years, and there was a huge upheaval causing massive head drama for certain in-laws, because their emotional weapon had been taken away with the death of the leverage of a mom who goes to every single kind of doctor except the kind she needs – a psychologist. They couldn’t even talk to each other so they asked me to be in charge of the funeral arrangement and the out of town people. I help my wife get through it, and she has become free of emotional/spiritual bondage to abusive family insanity for the first time convincingly for decades. So yeah I am pretty “tuned in” to both the death scene, and both the healthy and the dysfunctional family scene, while reacting to all manner of crises, both real and imagined. Mostly imagined. Or maybe a better term is “mostly fabricated” because the crises were always used as emotional leverage. Where there is pain, there shall soon be blaming and shaming.

When I was in high school, as a Red Cross volunteer, they started assigning me to the “front end” in the emergency room to get the paper work started, because I was reliable, and they used me as their best asset to help calm down children so they could be treated without being tied down. I’d work with the patient until he got comfortable with the ER unit, played with the lights on the x-ray reader (this is the LEFT side, etc.) and also scrubbed instruments and sterilized them, back when they reused the instruments.

Also it turns out I was really good, even though I was like 17, at sitting with families in the private surgery waiting rooms, even after they may get the “worst news.” That’s when I was at my best; when others were suffering a loss.

Then in the 80s, I became a volunteer on the Youth Crisis Hotline (now they have to be qualified so no volunteers due to legal concerns) and fielded all sorts of calls from homework help to being raped by Mom’s boyfriend and Mom kicks me out of the house because she says I’m lying and I’m just jealous of her boyfriend. Suicide calls at least two per shift. The ones I can’t handle were runaways. I quit after one I got at 3 am, this girl calls and says, “I’m at 2nd and Main, can you have someone pick me up?” Well first things didn’t work like that; if they were in immediate danger of physical harm, I could send the police. But we didn’t have a “runaway pickup service.” She had stolen money and a credit card, and bought bus tickets and that all got her about 2000 miles, and she ended up at the bus station downtown, no money, apparently no physical threat at home as far as I can tell but some disagreements with parents. There was really only one thing I could tell her – and as I knew she would be, she was unable to hear it – and that is unless they are actually beating her physically, then really her best option is to go home. I don’t even remember how I left it, but I do think I ended up calling the police to go talk to her.

Kids think if they don’t like their parents, and I understand there are lots of really difficult parents, they can just up and leave and somewhere they make a phone call and somebody is going to pick them up and give them a home. They just expect it.

All I could think of for the next month until my next shift, was whether that girl would go back home. Statistically, for girls in the situation she described, there was at least a 50-50 chance of her ending up being a prostitute for a local pimp, for food and shelter.

So I ended up quitting that because I had other minor conflicts too… but anyway I had formal training in empathy, crisis intervention, and helping people in danger or grief, get their heads together and try to reframe the situation to give them some perspective.

(continued):

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

(continued)

Later my eighth grade daughter found out her friend was not only cutting, but wanting to kill herself. Telling a school official would have automatically cause irreparable harm to the girl and the family because of the particulars of the situation. So I trained her in crisis intervention in general, and suicide intervention in particular. The things “everybody says” that have the worst possible effect, and what to say instead. In less than a month, the girl quit cutting completely.

So I’ve been around death and dying and mental illness and crises all my life. So no, I don’t know what his particular family is going through specfically, but I’m pretty well experienced with people in all sorts of grief and see how they react. There are many subtle tells that help telegraph the sincerity level, but if you haven’t seen them before the event it is harder to interpret whether a gesture is “normal” for a particular person in a given situation.

You might be fascinated to see how experts in body language size up situations…

Secrets Of Body Language Documentary

Especially pay attention to the videos of the parents who claimed to have lost a son; one was real and the other turned out to be a lie; they knew the boy wasn’t missing. That doesn’t exactly cover the current situation, but it will help you see the difference between genuine and staged distress.

I wish you would ask the mods to remove your post. It’s mean. Just because you are honestly and genuinely thinking cruel and harshly judgemental thoughts does not mean you should post them.

I will not. I was accurately portraying my honest and considered opinion, and I believe I have some experiential basis to have that opinion – and may I guess much more so than you. I was out of line when I posted that angry preacher; he didn’t speak for my opinion and all it did was pollute the post that otherwise I will hold up.

If you want it removed, you report it. Or you can point out that I’ve retracted the ending of the first post, and ask them to remove that link. That way I can stand behind it and be responsible for it. I can’t, using that other guy’s words.

Your words would cause pain to any grieving family member who googled it, rubbing salt in the wound, besides giving a very emancipated view to outsiders on how Catholics might view things.

My words have helped to heal many people, and counsel them through grief and distress. I just got back from four wonderful hours with an amazingly powerful 66-year-old woman who lost her husband in August. My wife actually brought me to an “all girls” party that theoretically I wasn’t invited to, to meet this woman, because she was fascinating and knew we would benefit from meeting each other. I see grieving people every single day. And btw, the “girls” found out that not all men stifle their ability to communicate with each other. They liked my calm, empathetic and non-judgmental presence it seems. Be assured I generally don’t go around saying things like that; I’ve known people who have read his books and it messed them up and it’s because in my opinion, he is personally messed up so he says things that are mostly right, but he misses salient details and sorry but the yeast spreads throughout the whole dough.

As far as “emancipated view of Catholics,” I take that to mean that because I think Rick Warren is a jerk and his book risky, then obviously all Catholics are mean and judgmental. Sorry but I’m not going to lie or cover truth about a person I firmly believe is misleading people with his preaching in addition to being a jerk, either because some people like his book or because it embarrasses you to be in the same group as I am. :nope:

 

[Eliza10]

Mystical Seeker, I see you have had success in your life and accolades for helping people and that is wonderful. Just be careful about those successes because ***pride goeth before the fall. *** As good at you are at “reading people” and guessing their motives (I’m not bad at it myself) you do not know a persons whole story. What is in their heart ONLY GOD KNOWS. That’s why we are not supposed to judge. Are you not Catholic, or a Christian? Don’t you know that? Some things you say are not at all what Jesus would say of another person! Things like:

I’ve watched him on video, and I think he’s a pompous, arrogant jerk who exploits God as much as follows Him.

First, the success of his book went completely to his head…

You cannot know that.

But when I saw the Older Warren on TV after the death…
Yes, he was no doubt grieving over his son, but it came across more opportunist than as a reaction to any loss. He blamed his son’s death on “bipolar disorder” without even considering that maybe and/or his fame had anything to do with it. …

Just because he did not consider that on the TV interview does not mean he is not considering it. As a parent you should know that your relationship with each child is different. Perhaps they had difficulties you cannot understand. You weren’t there, after all. Mental illness is a contributor to suicide frequently - you should know that. You cannot know that it was not a factor here.

I’m sorry but I can hardly contain myself at how much this guy and his public persona rubs me the wrong way …
… He wants EEEVERYBODY to know that he had done everything right. He’d been the greatest dad and formed the most faithful family. He said the most and best prayers. He bought the best help…

At this stage of his grief this is what he is looking at. You saw a snapshot of one moment in his long grief process. Besides, he probably did his very best, as best as he knew how. Our best does not always fix things, and our best is not always the skill set needed for a problem. We all have failures. You must have them, too. You really should give credit to the grace of God that you did not have this particular failure.

… he did NOT say anything to show that he had any emotional connection to the boy at all. He didn’t talk about the times they had that he will now miss. He didn’t talk about things that were troubling the boy. Just “oh well brain went south nothing I could do.” I wasn’t even convinced he knew his son very well. …

Again, you saw a snapshot of his personal reaction to his grief at that moment in time. Grieving is a long process. And it certainly includes periods of denial. God allows deeper introspection when the person is able to handle it.

Like “gosh I guess God’s trying to teach me sometimes you do everything right and it still doesn’t work out.” He’d make me want to puke, if I hadn’t already mostly processed this a few years ago…

I totally, totally relate to this sentiment of Warren’s here. Yeah, sometimes you give it all you’ve got and do everything right and it still doesn’t work out. Yes. That is so true!* I know.*

So, I guess* I *would make you want to puke, too.

 

[Eliza10]

Wow, I never thought opinions on Rick Warren would be such a polarizing issue! It’s funny, most people who can’t stand him have SEEN him preach, speak or give an interview. Those who’ve just read his book or done a Purposeful Life workshop/retreat seem to like him, or at least, they have respect for the guy. Could be something about his presentation, maybe.

So, I googled ‘Protestant complaints about Rick Warren’. Only ONE of the six (Six results applied to the topic) was positive about Warren’s ecumenism, that was The New Yorker website.

FOUR out of six website’s number one complaint was that Rick Warren is hanging out with Catholics! He’s seeing the Pope! Is he a "closet Catholic? And Beware: Protestants Heading Towards Ecumenical Destruction! Again, because of Warren’s Catholic-friendly activities.

There was only ONE website calling out other Protestants for being jealous haters of the man… So much for research.

Finally, someone wanted to know why anyone would leave the Church and look elsewhere. I left the Church for 20 years, mainly because I was poorly catechized–and I went to Catholic School! But I couldn’t defend my faith and when Bible-believing Christians showed me all the Church’s “errors” in black and white, I left, after much searching for answers. They didn’t have the Internet then, or Scott Hahn or any apologetics that I could lay my hands on, so I had to ask other Catholics, who were equally clueless. I argued with my entire family and they called me a heretic. In fact, any “Christian” other than Roman or Orthodox Catholic was a heretic to them.

So I didn’t really know then what I was missing by leaving the Catholic Church. I found a lot of fun, joy, friendships, peace and energy and caring at the mega church. People smiled at me, greeted me, they had activities galore and lots and lots of happy families together… Anyone who’s been there, knows the difference.

Long story short, I started wondering about the Church again when I started to see the cracks in the mega church. HOW could the 2000-year old church be wrong? I prayed for four years - literally every night on my knees, begging God to know the truth. My best friend didn’t know I was going through this, but she got me back by the sheer power of her personality, combined with Scott Hahn and Patrick Madrid books, writings of the early Church fathers and most of all, she evangelized me about Mary and the Eucharist. I’ve been back for 12 years. Traveling to Rome with my mom in 2005 was completely the BEST experience of my life!

I really loved my “Bible Christian” experience! If only we could combine the best of the two --our TRUTH and their LOVE --and this world might have a chance at peace. Jesus prayed for us to be ONE. Amen.

Nice thoughts, Sandraaustin. I enjoyed what you had to say. Your story was encouraging to me, too as I am a convert from Evangelical Protestant, and it was a good experience there and I learned a lot of truth, so much. Yes, people who are not Catholic can have very rich relationships with Our Lord! Jesus loves them too! And many have sought wisdom from God, who promised to give it abundantly to anyone who asks! Clearly Rick Warren has.

Now that I am Catholic it is so clear to me how much richer we are in the *great graces *God wants to bestow on us to help us grow in holiness - and those Protestants have to limp along without this! You have to admire the ones that soar, as Warren has, even though there is some error (like, for example, his the ignorance of the True Church).

But we must remember that the apostle Paul tells us to find points of agreement with others. Of course we can and should judge all Warren and others say in the light of full Catholic truth, but we need to not* only* find the flaws, but be sure to point out what is true and good and right and beautiful. And in the Warren’s case, there is a lot!

 

[janiruchan]

well, his faith inspires me. I have the book but I cant finish it may because it’s too method based or too scripture based…I dont know. I’m not so fond of neo-christian books though I have read good ones, such as Scott Hanh’s (so fun to read). I prefer ancient writings, especially of the saints about spirituality.

His life is a testimony itself…and he’s quite an open minded christian…He even prays the Divine Chaplet. He’s not those fundamentalist protestant. I respect him, but cant seem to finish his book. It’s just not the way for me I guess.

 

[Eliza10]

…
I guess my main concern is how Catholics, who have the richest spiritual treasury in the world, could think they could find something newer or better in Protestantism. Our libraries are crammed with spiritual pearls from the Desert Fathers to the Saints to the writings of the popes. Being in love with my faith and completely fulfilled by the Eucharistic Banquet, I find nothing lacking in the Catholic Church and don’t quite understand why others feel the need to keep searching outside their own faith. I would pray that their core belief be protected, that’s all.

Its true, its a concern. We can talk them back when we can, and we should pray them back, and also know our faith well so we always have an answer for anyone who questions it.

 

[janiruchan]

I’ve watched him on video, and I think he’s a pompous, arrogant jerk who exploits God as much as follows Him.

First, the success of his book went completely to his head.

His own son committed suicide, which is tragic. Supposedly his son had “bipolar disorder” which I can relate to because I had it severely for 12 years.

But when I saw the Older Warren on TV after the death, I was chilled through every bone. He came across as having the “crocodile tears” of any politician, using the occasion for his own aggrandizement. And all the while explaining all how wonderful a father he is and sometimes you just have to accept what happens etc…

Yes, he was no doubt grieving over his son, but it came across more opportunist than as a reaction to any loss. He blamed his son’s death on “bipolar disorder” without even considering that maybe and/or his fame had anything to do with it. Frankly he came across more relieved than troubled that his son was gone.

He made it absolutely clear that he had amassed HUGE resources in his son’s favor. no, Rick, his brain didn’t just arbitrarily “break down” in a vacuum. This clearly marks an opportunity for him to show himself to be even greater – now of course if Matthew doesn’t agree we don’t have his version of it.

I’m sorry but I can hardly contain myself at how much this guy and his public persona rubs me the wrong way …

Rick Warren: 'Mental illness took my son’s life.

If I had been able to preview my dad acting like this after my death, I’d have gone straight to hell without even bothering to die first.

Rick Warren returns to pulpit after son’s suicide: “I was in shock” – Again, notice his focus on how much he had done for his son, and saw to it that absolutely nothing any human could have done, he had done for his son. He wants EEEVERYBODY to know that he had done everything right. He’d been the greatest dad and formed the most faithful family. He said the most and best prayers. He bought the best help.

And yet someone who has been through bipolar disorder and has contemplated suicide (not because of my dad btw my dad was wonderful for my health) and has helped others from that state into states of happy and healthy living, I noticed what Poster Warren did NOT say:

… he did NOT say anything to show that he had any emotional connection to the boy at all. He didn’t talk about the times they had that he will now miss. He didn’t talk about things that were troubling the boy. Just “oh well brain went south nothing I could do.” I wasn’t even convinced he knew his son very well. The mother seemed nice; I didn’t see her enough to have vibes either way… but she has two crosses now – the loss of her son, and having to put up with her husband. Hopefully her love can eventually save the husband; he has the book knowledge maybe just one touch of love can make him a great success story instead of how he stands now in my mind.

Like “gosh I guess God’s trying to teach me sometimes you do everything right and it still doesn’t work out.” He’d make me want to puke, if I hadn’t already mostly processed this a few years ago.

Rick Warren on son: Matthew was not afraid to die – I love the description Warren gives here, of his son. His son was like Jesus it almost sounds like, except for one thing. He needed somebody to be his modern Jesus. His dad was impressed at the son’s compassion, which I’m glad to see; maybe some day Rick will recognize what it was about his son, and learn to have the same kind of “honest” compassion (as opposed to “motivated” compassion for example) as his son Matthew.

Another view of the situation … I’ve never heard this guy I just found this on YouTube:
Rick Warren’s Son Had Rick Warren’s Demons

R.I.P Matthew Warren: you were an inspiration during life, and you will not be forgotten after death.

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/dam/assets/130406201503-matthew-warren-story-top.jpg

MS

saw that video and never interpreted that way…Im very sorry he rubs you (Im not sure this is from God).I really feel for him and his soon cause I have suffered severe depression.
I pray for unity for the churches and more openness for dialogue. This is what Pope francis is aiming at.
I have a pastor too who gets there high in his ego (and I myself have that sort of tendency) but this is very human and should not be overemphasized. My pastor acknowledges this as well and I very much claim that I have such tendency…so I pray we should pray for one another…that Jesus may increase and we decrease. He is a good pastor and should be prayed over for.

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

I totally, totally relate to this sentiment of Warren’s here. Yeah, sometimes you give it all you’ve got and do everything right and it still doesn’t work out. Yes. That is so true!* I know.*

He did all he knew how to do.

As far as I know.

I do not believe he desire his son to die, or even to have the illness in the first place.

Two of Warren’s three children did not have the illness, so if Warren was a cause in Matthew’s condition, then somehow that did not translate into the other children with the same parents with the same beliefs, in the same kind of public spotlight.

I don’t know the factors that made Matthew’s life different from the others, or different that it would be if Pastor Warren were different in some way that I dream might have helped Matthew? Is that what this is about maybe – my ego that I could have either saved Matthew if I were in Rick’s situation, or that if Rick had known what I had known (which btw I could have told him if I had access to him but I don’t so it’s spitting into the wind) then maybe he could have.

But the problem is, I honestly think that I could have helped Rick if I were his personal friend. So really instead of saying what a jerk I think he is, I should maybe be offering to help him.

But I can’t help him. No more than anybody can help anybody else with changing the material facts of the past, or advising them if there is no available channel open at least not yet open. Who knows but that the future will bring me and Warren together, like President Obama had the “Beer Summit” with the guy who insulted him early in his presidency. Or John Paul II visiting the man who shot at him, and by the way there was a recent article that THAT VERY MAN who shot JPII came to the Vatican recently and paid some respect or did something I forgot what.

Maybe some day I will work as a paid or volunteer employee of Warren’s ministries. I don’t rule out the Holy Spirit from doing anything, and that keeps me free from a mental prison that steals my hopes and puts me into despair. If I trust in the Holy Spirit, I need never fear the future even if I just put my foot in my mouth in a really awkward place for it.

Thank you for taking the time to explain yourself in detail.

See? When this white cop did something racist, President Obama famously invited him to the White House to toss down a few brews and “talk it over.” I wonder what has changed in Obama, now that he’s “experienced” as president, that kept him from having a “beer summit” with other famous situations involved white cops and racism?

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

 

[Bob_Crowley]

I often refer to “my old pastor” in posts on this forum.

He had six sons, all of whom became Christian.

However the eldest committed suicide not long after I joined the church. He had “manic depression” (which I think they now call bipolar disorder).

None of the other sons had it. They were all high achievers in their own fields, and while the pastor could be a (very) strict disciplinarian from what I’ve heard (with six testosterone laden sons he probably needed to be), none of them thought he was unjust.

He was actually an outstanding man. So why the eldest son, and none of the others?

What I did do was to send Rick Warren’s ministry an email, pointing out that they needed to consider his son could be in Purgatory, and that prayers for him should not be ruled out. I never heard back, since they probably didn’t agree with my email, and in any case they probably got thousands of emails.

And I still think his son would benefit from prayers. As would my old pastor’s son.

And I don’t think suicides go straight to hell either. One of the pastor’s (prophetic - as he was usually accurate) predictions was that "… I think you’ll be doing a cleaning job for a short. time. You won’t like it much, but I think the Lord will just want you to hear about a ghost…"

He’d have said that circa 1990 or 1991, as he died himself in 1992. Fast forward to 2006, I did cleaning for about four months (‘short time’), ‘didn’t like it much’, and ‘heard about a ghost.’

It even involved an Australian priest I chanced upon on this forum. The “ghost” was a former manager in an old store who committed suicide in the 1960’s. I ended up getting a mass said for him via the priest I emailed via this forum, and who just happened to be located at the very same church which was in the same area as the “ghost” (out of all the Catholic Churches in Australia!).

The point is, I think it was a pointer to me that some suicides are in Purgatory, and I think the old pastor’s son and Rick Warren’s son may well both be in that category. That’s what I think the old pastor’s prediction was about. Odd that it should include a suicide, when he’d suffered the suicide of one of his own sons.

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

What I did do was to send Rick Warren’s ministry an email, pointing out that they needed to consider his son could be in Purgatory, and that prayers for him should not be ruled out. I never heard back, since they probably didn’t agree with my email, and in any case they probably got thousands of emails.

This is the absolute best response I’ve ever heard to Rick Warren. I’m actually glad I posted my “feelings” and “suspicions” about the nature of some of his problems, if for no other reason than to trigger this part of your post.

You do not need a response. You did the loving and responsible and motivated thing. You may have offered the only hope for any help for the son, to reduce any Purgatory time that son had. And I’m telling you it takes one to know one and I can gaze at Matthew’s picture and see innocence in it, just like own first born son Matt who is in seminary now was when he would play with his Little Tykes picnic table, and set up a cloth and wine glasses and put on a poncho and a bathrobe or something, and “say Mass” all by himself, or for his mother and me.

And I don’t think suicides go straight to hell either. One of the pastor’s (prophetic - as he was usually accurate) predictions was that "… I think you’ll be doing a cleaning job for a short. time. You won’t like it much, but I think the Lord will just want you to hear about a ghost…"

I am an apologist for the benefits of having each our own Dark Night, which is essentially an earth-bound version of Purgatory and really wasn’t documented well enough to really characterize and start working with it outside places where monks package coffee without any spoken communication to each other – and sometimes not even their director – until less than 90 years ago when John of the Cross was promoted to Dr. in 1926.

Odd that it should include a suicide, when he’d suffered the suicide of one of his own sons.

The only time I ever did anything that really hurt my mother, is when I told her during high school that I had actually considered killing myself. Frankly, I was pretty confident I would never actually do it, but I felt the need to go through some of the motions to kind of “get in touch” with it. We had watched a student-directed play at school, for my older brother’s girlfriend’s Acting and Directing class. It was Arsenic and Old Lace, which is a classic comedy about some sweet old ladies who “mercy poison” old men (I think just men I’m not sure) whom they feel are unhappy, so they “help them” find peace.

So I thought, oh I know what might work. I worked at a hospital as a volunteer, and so I obtained a syringe and brought it home, and then did the “mad scientist” thing in my basement, where I had all my super-geek chemistry set stuff. I looked for something soluble in water, had the poison warning on the label, and the bonus was I found something that was pretty purple when I mixed it up: Potassium permanganate. Looked like a Fine Wine, maybe to be injected and turn into the blood of a Savior. It made sense to me, and when I got done I knew I would never use it.

Nevertheless, I put the syringe in my desk drawer in my bedroom and didn’t look at it for a few weeks, until I got really bothered about something involving my girlfriend and my parents and what can I say I was in high school – so we were talking in my bedroom and Mom was unable to get me to explain what was wrong, and frankly I couldn’t explain it to myself so much less could I tell her. Then she got all weird and said, “oh no, you aren’t thinking of doing anything bad to yourself, are you?” I said, "well I thought about it and even messed around like I was going to, but I can’t. Then I warned her I had something in my drawer, and gave her the syringe, still filled with beautiful purple solution. I gave it to her, and went with her to destroy it, but first we had the hug and cryfest, and she clearly explained to me – and never backed off – that no matter how terrible or serious a problem you have, I will NEVER be mad at you for telling me the truth, because you are so important to me that I will never stop doing what I think is the best for you. And I know how to keep it quiet, so you will never have to regret anything you ever tell me. And she was right. She never did.

What I didn’t know, and didn’t find out until many years later, is that my mother’s own mother had taken her own life, bullet in the mouth, when my brother was a baby and I was on the way. Her mother had cancer or something, and felt she was a burden to her kids who had been helping her. One day she babysat my older brother while Mom and Dad went to a movie, which they did pretty often, and the next day she died. SHe had left a note, but it didn’t make sense or clearly signal alarm, but after the fact we could see it. It was some kind of open-ended apology I think, without explaining for what.

Matthew Warren’s memory, if you see my mother’s mother anywhere, please tell her we love her, that her daughter and son loved her, and they both lived a long and inspiring life and left happy children who love much.

MS

 

[Eliza10]

Bob Crowley, thanks for sharing that story about your pastor. It sounds like he was a good man. And also that He had the gift of prophecy! Yes, I also know many Protestants who have true spiritual gifts. God gives them to our separated brethren, those who love His Son, too.

You were right that Rick Warren’s son most likely needs prayers, like all the dead, whom we should assume are in purgatory (unless they so outstandingly and unusually seemed a Saint on earth!). Because we know in God’s economy no prayer is ever wasted, and it is said that such prayers, if they are not needed, will apply to someone who needs them who is not getting them.

However, since Warren is not Catholic and in good conscience is not praying for his son’s soul in Purgatory, I think God will certainly not be expecting this of him. Instead, its up to us, who know the son needs prayers, to pray for him. So if this young man is on our hearts, we need to do something about it - we, who are blessed to know how needed these prayers are, because we are blessed to be Catholic.

I am going to put the following in large letters to emphasize it! –
How much** one Hail Mary can do! If everyone who read this thread paused before moving on to pray just one heartfelt “Hail Mary” dedicated to the repose of the soul of Matthew Warren, before we move on to other reading or posting, what a gift he would be given from all these CAF readers, these readers who have been so heaped upon with graces that they are *Catholic! * (And, how much we all will have redeemed any wasted computer-time for today!).

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Mystical Seeker, I also wanted to say to you, who said,

But I can’t help him. No more than anybody can help anybody else with changing the material facts of the past, or advising them if there is no available channel open at least not yet open…Maybe some day I will work as a paid or volunteer employee of Warren’s ministries…

Yes, there is so much you can do, a Hail Mary for Matthew Warren every time you think of him, and also, you could have a Mass said for Matthew Warren. That would be HUGE! It would be much Bigger than ANYTHING you could* ever* do for Matthew, or his father.

I fail too often in having Masses said for the dead that I am acquainted with, and I intend to improve. Recently a friend of my husband’s suffered the death of a brother and the brother’s son - both married with children, the latter with young children. Finally I was motivated to inquire at having a Mass said, particularly because I knew my husband’s friend would appreciate it, and I did it at the Abbey where we frequently go to Mass (but it can be your local church). We made a point to go to the that Mass that weekday (its better if you do) and it was like a pilgrimage to do it, and it was so beautiful to be at that Mass where their souls were being lifted up, upon our request. And they gave us a little handmade card to commemorate the event, which we of course passed onto the brother. So that is a meaningful thing you can do if Matthew Warren is on your heart. And you could send Rick Warren the Mass Card. He might keep it. It might truly minister him to him in an unseen, spiritual way, too. The way that counts! So I am telling you especially, MysticalSeeker, since the son is so much on your heart.

My husband and I try to remember to always say the prayer, “And may the souls of the faithful departed by the mercy of God rest in peace” after every meantime grace. That way we make sure to weave that important Catholic ministry into our daily life, lest we forget. I often whisper a quick, “especially ___” - for someone who is on my heart.

Mystical Seeker, you wrote:

“… I don’t rule out the Holy Spirit from doing anything, and that keeps me free from a mental prison that steals my hopes and puts me into despair. If I trust in the Holy Spirit, I need never fear the future…”

So true!

 

[soulstudy]

Does anybody think it is a complete waste of time to read published literary works by a pastor of a mega church such as Warren. I think it is a lie from the Adversary to find interest in such books. Keep in mind, it is the Devil’s objective to take any attention off of the inspired Word of God. I know these pastors and teachers mean well, and although I am not condemning all books written to explain certain confusing parts of the Scriptures, I think it is obvious that whoever calls themselves a “christian” does not know their Bible well enough to be reading anything else.

For example, most “christians” don’t even know the first teaching of Christ, nor do they apply it to their life. “Repent, for the kingdom of God is at hand.” Matthew 4:17 or “…but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.” Luke 13:3,5

Even after reading these passages, most “christians” do not know what Jesus means by this. Repent means to “turn away from.” Turn away from what? SIN. This is not a one time event at conversion but a daily attitude toward sin. Every day every believer of Christ must decide to not sin. Paul says in Ephesians 4:26 “Be angry, and do not sin.” This does not mean “try” to not sin. This means don’t sin. “I tell you, on the day of judgment people will give an account for every careless word they speak, for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.” Matthew 12:36-37 Christ did not die so that we would have the excuse to keep on sinning. This is a doctrine from the Devil himself. But what is so disappointing is the amount of churches who teach such things.

Jesus said in John 14:15, “If you love me, you will keep my commandments.” Therefore if you do not love Him you will not keep his commandments. And if you do not keep his commandments you have no inheritance in the kingdom. And yes, I am saying that your salvation is conditional. Salvation is conditional on obedience. A true Christian will strive for holiness and godliness. If you sin every day it is obvious you do not care enough to please the God who gave you the free gift of salvation through the Blood of the Cross. If you do not believe this teaching (which is straight from the Word of God, and many quotes being straight from the lips of Jesus Christ himself) you are deceived, you have demons that are influencing and manipulating your mind even as you read this. My hope and prayer is that our Father in Heaven would choose to reveal this Truth to you.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Reading the works of non-Catholics like Pastor Rick Warren is perfectly fine providing their teaching doesn’t go against Church teaching.

We’re not the Catholic Taliban where we shun anything not written by a Catholic priest.

Jim

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

Reading the works of non-Catholics like Pastor Rick Warren is perfectly fine providing their teaching doesn’t go against Church teaching.

We’re not the Catholic Taliban where we shun anything not written by a Catholic priest.

Jim

 

[Memaw]

Does anybody think it is a complete waste of time to read published literary works by a pastor of a mega church such as Warren. I think it is a lie from the Adversary to find interest in such books. Keep in mind, it is the Devil’s objective to take any attention off of the inspired Word of God. I know these pastors and teachers mean well, and although I am not condemning all books written to explain certain confusing parts of the Scriptures, I think it is obvious that whoever calls themselves a “christian” does not know their Bible well enough to be reading anything else.

For example, most “christians” don’t even know the first teaching of Christ, nor do they apply it to their life. “Repent, for the kingdom of God is at hand.” Matthew 4:17 or “…but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.” Luke 13:3,5

Even after reading these passages, most “christians” do not know what Jesus means by this. Repent means to “turn away from.” Turn away from what? SIN. This is not a one time event at conversion but a daily attitude toward sin. Every day every believer of Christ must decide to not sin. Paul says in Ephesians 4:26 “Be angry, and do not sin.” This does not mean “try” to not sin. This means don’t sin. “I tell you, on the day of judgment people will give an account for every careless word they speak, for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.” Matthew 12:36-37 Christ did not die so that we would have the excuse to keep on sinning. This is a doctrine from the Devil himself. But what is so disappointing is the amount of churches who teach such things.

Jesus said in John 14:15, “If you love me, you will keep my commandments.” Therefore if you do not love Him you will not keep his commandments. And if you do not keep his commandments you have no inheritance in the kingdom. And yes, I am saying that your salvation is conditional. Salvation is conditional on obedience. A true Christian will strive for holiness and godliness. If you sin every day it is obvious you do not care enough to please the God who gave you the free gift of salvation through the Blood of the Cross. If you do not believe this teaching (which is straight from the Word of God, and many quotes being straight from the lips of Jesus Christ himself) you are deceived, you have demons that are influencing and manipulating your mind even as you read this. My hope and prayer is that our Father in Heaven would choose to reveal this Truth to you.

Our Father in Heaven DOES choose to reveal HIS TRUTHS to us but we’re not always open to HIS Will. THY Will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven! God Bless, Memaw

 

[Deus_tecum]

I was in a small group once that was part of a mega church, and they were doing things based on Rick Warren’s “Purpose Driven Life”. I never read the book so I don’t know if he suggested the methods I saw. One thing they did was have us all fill out little questionnaires to find out what our spiritual gifts were. The interpretation of the questionnaires was really simplistic. People laid off from work had “the gift of poverty”. Single people had “the gift of celibacy”, etc. Then based on one’s so called gifts, we were all supposed to volunteer in some capacity in the church.