"Right hand possessions" vs. Adultery in Islam

[Gottle_of_Geer]

How is it not adultery? He had sexual intercourse with a woman who was not his wife?
I might buy your explanation since he did not have the Ten Commandments at this point and perhaps there was no concept of adultery. ??? I would still think there would be a concept of right and wrong. Would men and women have been offended if their spouse had intercourse with someone else?

Perhaps I would need to see marriage ceremonies of that time period and what expectations were held for each spouse to the other.

In any event, I’m not so much interested in Abraham and Hagar. I’m interested in the doctrine in Islam whereby God allegedly condones adultery in the form of permitting sexual intercourse with slave women who are clearly not wives after clearly announcing in the Ten Commandments through Moses “Thou shalt not commit adultery” and reaffirming this decree through Jesus when He told us:

"You have heard that it was said to the ancients, “Thou shalt not commit adultery, But I say to you that anyone who so much as looks with lust at a woman has already committed adultery with her in his heart.” Matthew 5: 27-28

“Right hand possessions” is the term used in the Quran for slave-girls or women.

Thanks for the explanation ​

This should answer most of your questions - scroll down to the heading 1. Abraham and the Discoveries at Nuzi:

at this link: http://www.theology.edu/abraham.htm

If the Muslim practice is that of Abraham, I don’t see a moral problem; let alone adultery.

 

[elwill]

the imam is South African who studied from an Indian teacher. It seems that he is somehow into Suffism…anyway, Issuing a fataw comes from a council of scholars learned in Islamic Figh (law) and not from one individual.

yes “believing” is one of the conditions…

I’ll do some more research on this subject and hopefully answer you questions…

hi hadi
actually the article was very clear when it said
One question that still remains is whether slavery still legally prevails anywhere in the Islamic world and whether it can be successfully implemented in this age. Well, there is no prevalence of lawful slavery in the Islamic world today and it would be difficult to implement it because of the stringent conditions attached to it.

actually hadi , this is the only way they have to criticise islam , they implement the culture 1400 years ago to our days , exactly as the issue of Aisha’s age

actually the teaching of islam is always the best
it was the best for the slaves in the time of slavery , and it’s the best for the people in the time of “no slavery”
actually thes verses which talking about " what our hand posses" not applied to our time , as for islam allready succeed to put an end for slavery , and consequently put an end for this concept ( what your hand posses)

 

[Sam_777]

I just honestly do not understand how this is not viewed as adultery and how this is not viewed as a clear contradiction of previous scripture.

Also don’t forget to add that the previous scriptures didn’t include these types of marriages in Islam (which many consider as adultery):

1. Misyar marriage, (Arabic:زواج المسيار).
   l
2. Travel marriage, (Arabic:زواج المسفار).
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   3) Mutah marriage, (Arabic:زواج المتعة).
   l
3. Urfi marriage, (Arabic:الزواج العرفي).
   l
4. Exchange marriage, (Arabic:زواج البدل)
   l
5. Elders marriage, (Arabic:زواج الوناسة).
   l
6. Friends marriage, (Arabic:زواج الفرند).
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7. Summer marriage, (Arabic: الزواج الصيفي).

 

[bosnian_muslim]

i only heard about misiyar marriage

for those who dont know,misiyar is when you have a marraige just for the sex…after that you get a divorce,and it all happens in one night most muslims dont support that,i think its disgusting,but you can practice it,its not forbidden.I heard its popular in wahhabi saudia,but they are perverse in any way so im not surprised

 

[Sam_777]

but they are perverse in any way so im not surprised

But they are the fruit of Muhammed …

(Matthew 7:15-16):
“Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?”

 

[Hadi]

i only heard about misiyar marriage

for those who dont know,misiyar is when you have a marraige just for the sex…after that you get a divorce,and it all happens in one night most muslims dont support that,i think its disgusting,but you can practice it,its not forbidden.I heard its popular in wahhabi saudia,but they are perverse in any way so im not surprised

no you got it wrong…that’s Muta’a marriage practiced by some Shias… it’s forbidden by most Muslims.

Mysiar is no diffrent than the regular marriage…except for two points:
1, that the wife accepts the fact the husband is unable to provide a shared home, for economical reasons or other reasons (e.g the husband lives in a different city and both of them can’t move).
2, the wife accepts that the husband is unable to support her financially.

All other conditions are met in this marriage, (the witnesses to the marriage, the acceptance of the wife to the proposal, the written formal marriage certificate …etc)

Mysiar in arabic means “visitation” … a word that describes this marriage…the husband visits his wife on a regular basis (weekly or monthly).

 

[bosnian_muslim]

no you got it wrong…that’s Muta’a marriage practiced by some Shias… it’s forbidden by most Muslims.

Mysiar is no diffrent than the regular marriage…except for two points:
1, that the wife accepts the fact the husband is unable to provide a shared home, for economical reasons or other reasons (e.g the husband lives in a different city and both of them can’t move).
2, the wife accepts that the husband is unable to support her financially.

All other conditions are met in this marriage, (the witnesses to the marriage, the acceptance of the wife to the proposal, the written formal marriage certificate …etc)

Mysiar in arabic means “visitation” … a word that describes this marriage…the husband visits his wife on a regular basis (weekly or monthly).

OK then i got it wrong…i was talking about mutaa,thanks for correcting me

 

[bosnian_muslim]

But they are the fruit of Muhammed …

(Matthew 7:15-16):
“Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?”

what?!?

in his last sermon he said,an arab is no better then a nonarab,we judge people only by their faith,nothing else:thumbsup:

if the prophet(pbuh) would see what Saudia has turned into he would be ashamed

 

[Steven_John]

But they are the fruit of Muhammed …

(Matthew 7:15-16):
“Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?”

hmm problem is with this track every bad thing done in the name of Christianity is fruit of Yahooshua (pbwh)

 

[Jay53]

hi hadi
actually the article was very clear when it said
One question that still remains is whether slavery still legally prevails anywhere in the Islamic world and whether it can be successfully implemented in this age. Well, there is no prevalence of lawful slavery in the Islamic world today and it would be difficult to implement it because of the stringent conditions attached to it.

actually hadi , this is the only way they have to criticise islam , they implement the culture 1400 years ago to our days , exactly as the issue of Aisha’s age

actually the teaching of islam is always the best
it was the best for the slaves in the time of slavery , and it’s the best for the people in the time of “no slavery”
actually thes verses which talking about " what our hand posses" not applied to our time , as for islam allready succeed to put an end for slavery , and consequently put an end for this concept ( what your hand posses)

No it isn’t. It makes adultery permissable when God said it wasn’t. How is that “the best”? This has nothing to do with “culture”. It has to do with right and wrong - what God said was right and wrong and then allegedly changed.

As I mentioned previously, if the Quran was truly from God, His law against adultery should have been upheld, not changed to fit the “norm” of the culture then. Jesus had no problem condemning adultery and, in fact, said that those who even look at a woman with lust have committed adultery with her in their heart. Why did God supposedly change His mind?

 

[Jay53]

Thanks for the explanation ​

This should answer most of your questions - scroll down to the heading 1. Abraham and the Discoveries at Nuzi:

at this link: http://www.theology.edu/abraham.htm

If the Muslim practice is that of Abraham, I don’t see a moral problem; let alone adultery.

So, they can ignore the Ten Commandments and pick and choose what they think is right or wrong based on what (imperfect) human beings did vs. what God specifically said was right or wrong?

(Your link also then refutes the Islamic view that adoption is forbidden. Muhammad made this decree when he wanted to marry his adopted son’s wife. But it appears Abraham had an adopted son, so adoption should be OK then. )

 

[Sam_777]

hmm problem is with this track every bad thing done in the name of Christianity is fruit of Yahooshua (pbwh)

The difference is that Jesus is assured in Quran that he is a prophet while Muhammed is not mentioned in the Bible.

So surely Yahooshua can’t be a false prophet based on that.

 

[Jay53]

hi hadi
actually the article was very clear when it said
One question that still remains is whether slavery still legally prevails anywhere in the Islamic world and whether it can be successfully implemented in this age. Well, there is no prevalence of lawful slavery in the Islamic world today and it would be difficult to implement it because of the stringent conditions attached to it.

actually hadi , this is the only way they have to criticise islam , they implement the culture 1400 years ago to our days , exactly as the issue of Aisha’s age

actually the teaching of islam is always the best
it was the best for the slaves in the time of slavery , and it’s the best for the people in the time of “no slavery”
actually thes verses which talking about " what our hand posses" not applied to our time , as for islam allready succeed to put an end for slavery , and consequently put an end for this concept ( what your hand posses)

I’d also like to point out 2 things:

1. the fatwas I quoted and linked to were recent ones. The first one was from 2005, the second one didn’t have a date in the body, but the date at the top is July 2009.
2. the part you quoted above says that the conditions would be “difficult to implement”, not impossible nor completely forbidden.

 

[planten]

But, how is it not adultery? Abraham did commit adultery with Hagar and Ishmael was the result. Be that as it may it was still adultery - having sex with someone who is not your wife.

**Jay, you are a sinner and here you are committing a sin of the highest order, blamimg an honest rightful man of God (Abraham) with the worst accusation due to some flimsy definition of adultry.

You are not wiser than Sarai?/ Are you?? When Sarai offered Hagar to Abraham to take her as his wife, then who are you to object to such thing?. Are you too pious, even more than Sarai and Abraham?? Abraham knew what he was offered and Hagar knew too. Sarai was the person who agreed to such relation. God blessed the relation.

I cannot understand what kind of mind you people have got? Due to such idle and defective sinful mind, your this whole thread has become null and void for all Muslims here. We would have written things and replied (explained) things to you. But it appears that it is no use dealing with a wishful sinful mind.**

(To everyone, please note that I am not judging Abraham or condemning him - that alone is for God to do. I am just trying to objectively point out his actions vs. what is the definition of adultery. Also Abraham did not give us any command to commit adultery or have sex with someone who is not a spouse.)

**You are judging Abraham and Hagar and sarai. How can you back out unless you apologise and repent and take back your very bad words.

May I ask you what was Jacob doing with the servants ladies who were in his house? He was producing children without marraige. I believe that there was problem with the birth of King David too who was the great grand grand father of Jesus according to your geneology (given in Mathew chapter one). What would you say about that??**

 

[Jay53]

**Jay, you are a sinner and here you are committing a sin of the highest order, blamimg an honest rightful man of God (Abraham) with the worst accusation due to some flimsy definition of adultry.

You are not wiser than Sarai?/ Are you?? When Sarai offered Hagar to Abraham to take her as his wife, then who are you to object to such thing?. Are you too pious, even more than Sarai and Abraham?? Abraham knew what he was offered and Hagar knew too. Sarai was the person who agreed to such relation. God blessed the relation.

I cannot understand what kind of mind you people have got? Due to such idle and defective sinful mind, your this whole thread has become null and void for all Muslims here. We would have written things and replied (explained) things to you. But it appears that it is no use dealing with a wishful sinful mind.**

**You are judging Abraham and Hagar and sarai. How can you back out unless you apologise and repent and take back your very bad words.

May I ask you what was Jacob doing with the servants ladies who were in his house? He was producing children without marraige. I believe that there was problem with the birth of King David too who was the great grand grand father of Jesus according to your geneology (given in Mathew chapter one). What would you say about that??**

Planten,

What does any of this have to do with the doctrine in the Quran making sex with slave girls (who are not wives) permissable? I’m interested in finding out how that falls outside the definition of adultery and how Muslims see it as not contradicting God’s previous Word given through Moses and Jesus.

I will not apologize for stating reality. As I mentioned in an earlier post I am not and will not judge or condemn Abraham for his actions. He is accountable to God for them, as we all are. My thread is not about Abraham and Hagar - it is about the doctrine in the Quran which seems to permit adultery. Please stay on topic.

 

[planten]

Planten,

What does any of this have to do with the doctrine in the Quran making sex with slave girls (who are not wives) permissable? I’m interested in finding out how that falls outside the definition of adultery and how Muslims see it as not contradicting God’s previous Word given through Moses and Jesus.

** If that was your real motive then you should not have mentioned anything about Abraham and hagar**.

I will not apologize for stating reality. As I mentioned in an earlier post I am not and will not judge or condemn Abraham for his actions. He is accountable to God for them, as we all are. My thread is not about Abraham and Hagar - it is about the doctrine in the Quran which seems to permit adultery. Please stay on topic.

**If your thread was not about Abraham and Hagar then why did you mention them?? Now I have to ask you about the legitimacy of the 12 children of Jacob. How many were legitimate and how many were the by-product of adultery according to your principle.

Please tell. Then we will proceed with your discussion topic.

The Quran does not permit adultery. But I believe bibleNT has no law against adultry. Woud you agree to that? You have no law against adultery in church. You have said good-Bye to the good old Law of Moses. And now you are free to do as much as you can.

In Islam there is definite punishment for adultery. That alone is enough proof that Islam does not permit adultery.**

 

[ZAKI]

** If that was your real motive then you should not have mentioned anything about Abraham and hagar**.

**If your thread was not about Abraham and Hagar then why did you mention them?? Now I have to ask you about the legitimacy of the 12 children of Jacob. How many were legitimate and how many were the by-product of adultery according to your principle.

Please tell. Then we will proceed with your discussion topic. The Quran does not permit adultery. But I believe bibleNT has no law against adultry. Woud you agree to that? You have no law against adultery in church. You have said good-Bye to the good old Law of Moses. And now you are free to do as much as you can.

In Islam there is definite punishment for adultery.**

I missed you planten (while I studied more about islam recently).
Anyway just a point jay53 didn’t mention them herself it was another poster. keep it up

wasalam

 

[Jay53]

** If that was your real motive then you should not have mentioned anything about Abraham and hagar**.

**If your thread was not about Abraham and Hagar then why did you mention them?? Now I have to ask you about the legitimacy of the 12 children of Jacob. How many were legitimate and how many were the by-product of adultery according to your principle.

Please tell. Then we will proceed with your discussion topic.

The Quran does not permit adultery. But I believe bibleNT has no law against adultry. Woud you agree to that? You have no law against adultery in church. You have said good-Bye to the good old Law of Moses. And now you are free to do as much as you can.

In Islam there is definite punishment for adultery. That alone is enough proof that Islam does not permit adultery.**

As Zaki mentioned, someone else brought up Abraham and Hagar. I was responding to their post.

Jacob also has nothing to do with the Quran or this thread, nor does the New Testament.

What is the punishment for having sex with a slave girl who is not your wife? Or is there a different definition for adultery in Islam? Is the definition not the same as it was for Moses in the Ten Commandments?

Please reread my OP if you are unclear as to the topic of this thread. Thank you.

 

[elwill]

I’d also like to point out 2 things:

1. the fatwas I quoted and linked to were recent ones. The first one was from 2005, the second one didn’t have a date in the body, but the date at the top is July 2009.
2. the part you quoted above says that the conditions would be “difficult to implement”, not impossible nor completely forbidden.

yes i know that it’s recent one
what i wanna to say that this rules are apllied in the society where slavery exist , so whereas there’s no slavery so it’s not apllied . that is exactly what the fatwa pointed out

this rules about slavery is exist as long as slavery are exist , actually if you studied entirely these rules and if you studied the history , you will recognize that these rules were the basic reasons to end slavery

what you do with muslims now is that you blame their religion becuase it contains some rules in treatment with slavery which in fact helped them , then bring the case after the purposes of such rules were finished , and try to make us think that it’s applied in our modern days

you can’t distinguish between the time and the cultures , you mixing everything up
you can’t comprehend that slavery was very rooted in all the world in the time of the revelation of quran , and it was neccesery for this verses to be exist in quran to deal with such deciese . and you can’t comprehend that muslims have no rights to delete it from quran because it’s not applied in our modern days

look jay , our religion is practial religion . not just group of cmmandments
there were purpose from allowing intercourse with slaves , and the purpose is done and consequently such rules are usless now ,

sorry for my long post

 

[Jay53]

yes i know that it’s recent one
what i wanna to say that this rules are apllied in the society where slavery exist , so whereas there’s no slavery so it’s not apllied . that is exactly what the fatwa pointed out

this rules about slavery is exist as long as slavery are exist , actually if you studied entirely these rules and if you studied the history , you will recognize that these rules were the basic reasons to end slavery

what you do with muslims now is that you blame their religion becuase it contains some rules in treatment with slavery which in fact helped them , then bring the case after the purposes of such rules were finished , and try to make us think that it’s applied in our modern days

you can’t distinguish between the time and the cultures , you mixing everything up
you can’t comprehend that slavery was very rooted in all the world in the time of the revelation of quran , and it was neccesery for this verses to be exist in quran to deal with such deciese . and you can’t comprehend that muslims have no rights to delete it from quran because it’s not applied in our modern days

look jay , our religion is practial religion . not just group of cmmandments
there were purpose from allowing intercourse with slaves , and the purpose is done and consequently such rules are usless now ,

sorry for my long post

My point is the fact that your religion alleges that God explicitly went back on His Word (Thou shalt not commit adultery) and made adultery permissable because of the “norms” of the culture due to slavery.

All of the other aspects of Islam that worked to abolish slavery could still have been in place and worked for the betterment of lives of slaves without the sex issue and permitting adultery. Sex, in general, is not necessary to abolish slavery. If the Quran was truly from God, God would have upheld “Thou shalt not commit adultery” while still putting into place all the wonderful aspects you say Islam has with regard to slaves. That is where I am stuck. Why would God go back on His Law to accomodate the “norms” of society? Has He ever done this before or since?

And it doesn’t matter if slavery is done with now. The fact would still remain that even for that time period, God went back on His Word/Law.