Right to life: Canadian Style, eh?

[rlg94086]

The only thing wrong with Marxism is that it’s atheistic. Add in freedom of religion, and it’s all good stuff.

Thank you for being honest… I don’t think your belief is supported by Church teaching though.

**2431 **The responsibility of the state. “Economic activity, especially the activity of a market economy, cannot be conducted in an institutional, juridical, or political vacuum. On the contrary, it presupposes sure guarantees of individual freedom and private property, as well as a stable currency and efficient public services. Hence the principal task of the state is to guarantee this security, so that those who work and produce can enjoy the fruits of their labors and thus feel encouraged to work efficiently and honestly. . . . Another task of the state is that of overseeing and directing the exercise of human rights in the economic sector. However, primary responsibility in this area belongs not to the state but to individuals and to the various groups and associations which make up society.”

 

[vern_humphrey]

Nobody “provides for” himself. It is always a cooperative effort. Even if you own your own business and do everything yourself, you still have to rely on customers for your support.

So there’s no difference between working for a living and leeching off the public? There’s no dignity in work?

Saint Paul was wrong when he said, "Who will not work, let him not eat?

Universal health care is just an extension of the same concept - everybody working together towards a common goal, and supporting each other.

Yes – let’s all leech off the taxpayer – whoever he may be. And we’ll have a health care system with all the efficiency of the Post Office and all the compassion of the IRS.

What you seem to miss is someone must pay. And that someone must work to earn the money.

In a decent society, all who can work, will work. And therefore there will be many who can pay their own way. And those people should pay their own way.

Others can pay some of their medical insurance or expenses, and they should pay their fair share of their own treatment costs.

And there will be some who cannot work and cannot pay – and by having a system like the one I just described, the rest of us will easily be able to provide for them.

And none of us will have to sell ourselves to a heartless bureaucracy.

 

[BamaRider]

Spirit said-

You are the most incredible poster boy for social darwinism claptrap I’ve seen on this forum yet. You hit every single highpoint. I swear somebody has given you all the key phrases. How incredibly predictable. The GOP loves ya dude. An utter intellectual 180. Go for it. Alabama remains the King!

Now my feelings are hurt, and I was having such a good day. I even asked my wife at lunch, “baby, am I Social Darwin?” And in her sweet southern twang said, “wasn’t that the guy married to Sam on Bewitched?”

Now I come back on here and one somebody is trying to get Vern to move to Calgary?? Been there, on a trip down Icefields Parkway. Beautiful country but Brrrrrrrrrrrr COLD. But at least nobody called HIM a Social Darwin. uch:

Is a social darwin a guy that wants the govt to leave him alone, because I know what is best for ME, and who relies on his own wit and wisdom to make it, then I guess that’s what I am.
Is that a bad thing Rig94086?

 

[BamaRider]

If you work hard, you can move up the ladder.
The only worthwhile advance is one made by one’s own devices.
We have a hugely strong work ethic in this country.

M’am, you don’t believe this is true? Every single day, someone gets off a boat in this country, with nothing more than the shirt on on his back, and becomes a millionare a few years later. Out distancing folks that have lived here ALL their lives. How? Simply because he believes the above is true.

All of this was started by the rich robber barons who adopted the then popular social darwinism of the elite eastern schools. They got their laize faire treatment for business, and instilled in the workers the idea that hard work is the noble result of survivial of the fittest. So them that succeeded were “better” and deserving. Those that did not, well, they deserved their place as well. It was a convenient position for the rich of course, obviating any need for social reform and spreading the wealth.

You cannot get through to those folks here who have from their point of view succeeded (remember as long as you can point to someone below you, you have succeeded). They aren’t willing to give anything to anyone else because they don’t feel they should have to. Its mean spirited in the worst sense of the word.

---

M’am it seems you have a awful dim view of things, but maybe I’m wrong?

 

[rlg94086]

Is a social darwin a guy that wants the govt to leave him alone, because I know what is best for ME, and who relies on his own wit and wisdom to make it, then I guess that’s what I am.
Is that a bad thing Rig94086?

Hmmm…well, I’m not sure, but it doesn’t sound like a bad thing. Now, an anti-social darwin is something I would not tolerate. If I can’t sit with someone and have a good conversation over a Guiness, then I’ve got no time for him!

 

[vern_humphrey]

Hmmm…well, I’m not sure, but it doesn’t sound like a bad thing. Now, an anti-social darwin is something I would not tolerate. If I can’t sit with someone and have a good conversation over a Guiness, then I’ve got no time for him!

I am reminded of a fellow I know named Darwin. He has to be seen to be believed. Someone said, “His middle name is Darwin. His first name is Proving and his last name is Wrong.”

Slaint!

 

[Ani_Ibi]

…You’re NOT gonna get your hernia fixed in 2 weeks in socialized system. End of story.

Not necessarily true. (Me reporting in from Toronto the Good)

I belong to the Women’s College Hospital culture. When I need something, my family doctor gets it right away. It took ONE DAY to get me an MRI.

Having said that, not everyone is savvy enough to capture a Women’s College Hospital physician.

A person still has to do the legwork to acquire enough knowledge to access the best health care. In that respect it is a competitive system.

Also having said that, vast tracts of our Northlands are without medical attention of any kind. Once in a blue moon a travelling nurse comes through. And of course there are the ubiquitous abortuaries.

If Canada could boost our economy and create more jobs (instead of keeping them down) then I would say change the health care system. But how are the unemployed going to pay for doctors? Unemployment and abortion are built right into our economy. We have to do the best we can with what the trail of tears our benighted politicians have left us.

The US health care system is not working. Stop trying to defend an unworkable ideal. It’s not fooling me.

One of the biggest problems we both have is the pharmaceutical industry which actually creates illness in my humble opinion.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

(My emphasis)

English translation: Only those who can afford it come to the US.

Not true.

The Ontario health insurance plan covers American treatment for Ontario residents.

Thing is that an applicant has to have the luxury of time and a very high paperwork threshold. It’s possible for a poor person to go south for treatment, but very difficult.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Not true.

The Ontario health insurance plan covers American treatment for Ontario residents.

Thing is that an applicant has to have the luxury of time and a very high paperwork threshold. It’s possible for a poor person to go south for treatment, but very difficult.

Well, at least they have a sporting chance.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

SpiritMeadow:

The problem is you are running up against the American belief that:

If you work hard, you can move up the ladder.
The only worthwhile advance is one made by one’s own devices.
We have a hugely strong work ethic in this country.

I would like folks to seriously ask themselves how much of this work ethic is Catholic and how much is Calvinist.

How much of your Catholicism have you given away in favour of non-Catholicism or even anti-Catholicism?

Look at the early Church. Rich and poor lived together in small church communities of no more than 40 or so folks. They pooled all their resources.

Is this socialism? No! A thousand times No!

Why not? Because God was the centre of their lives.

The social gospel without the Real Presence of Jesus is what brought Russia to its knees (I gather they have regained their feet of late) and what is bringing Canada to its knees.

I do not agree with the extremist and alarmist portrayal of Canadian health care put forward by some of you. The motivations for folks to become doctors here has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with becoming millionnaires. Lawyers maybe.

Nevertheless there are serious things wrong with our Canadian economy. We never stopped doing Family Compact, at least not in Ontario and in Quebec. The very worst among us blame the US for everything.

In America I still DO believe that hard work and vision will get you a chance at the brass ring. I’ve seen it with my own eyes. That is NOT true in Canada. Much still depends on your last name up here.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Well, at least they have a sporting chance.

Trouble is it’s not sporting. It’s devious and vicious. The bureaucracy of getting out of a health-care dilemma up here is inhuman.

There IS too much govt inbetween our doctors and our patients. And that is getting worse and worse the longer the liberals have any say in things.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

…And every time I post on these threads, I get a dozen PMs asking about the job situation in Calgary - I’ll save you the time - come on up. The City is looking to fill 200 clerical jobs this week and every time I drive down the street, I pass a hundred “help wanted” signs. (But arrange a place to stay before you get here - housing is extremely scarce, these days.)

Yep, west of Ontario is pretty good. And there is not the anti-Americanism out west that you will find among many in Ontario and Quebec. The east was settled first and the folks there were easily frightened by the violence following the French Revolution.

Due to the close collaboration with the French with the Americans in the War of Independence, easterners decided that Americans were unstable and not to be trusted nor trucked with. Moreover, easterners disliked the slave economy and did their level best to interfere with it, running the underground railroad and sending armed operatives south to mess with the powers that were.

The West was settled after America had sent her ships around the world, established trade, become prosperous. The West therefore had no bones to pick with the Americans.

Barrie Ontario (north of Toronto) is I gather the fast growing community on the continent. I don’t know about jobs, but I figure if it’s growing then there are jobs.

The skiiing is good in both places.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Trouble is it’s not sporting. It’s devious and vicious. The bureaucracy of getting out of a health-care dilemma up here is inhuman.

There IS too much govt inbetween our doctors and our patients. And that is getting worse and worse the longer the liberals have any say in things.

Genevivo De La O would approve.

A Mexican revolutionary, he captured a large number of government troops, whom he confined in a hacianda with a walled courtyard.

And he gave them a sporting chance – one by one, they were let out into the courtyard and allowed to run for the wall. If they could make it over before he could kill them, they could go free.

It is said he had to quit when his trigger finger was so swollen that he couldn’t get inside the trigger guard anymore.

 

[Teen4Christ]

Our system is the best in the world as long as you are rich or reasonably well to do. For every story that one can extract from Canada about a bad outcome through alledged socialized medicine, of course, thousands of dead Americans cannot speak because they had no health care at all.

The fact that we claim to be the leader of the free world and bastion of all that is good and right is sadly destroyed when you look at the placement of the US among the family of nations in areas that speak to care for its citizens. It is an embarrassing crime that this continues.

The ultra right wing, buying into the GOP nonsense finds reasons for this: the poor don’t really deserve health care, they are just lazy. Don’t stop with health care, we can move on to education and a plethora of other social issues. the US lags substantially behind many many countries. But the rich do keep getting richer don’t they?

Wow…not even close

 

[Ani_Ibi]

…Is a social darwin a guy that wants the govt to leave him alone, because I know what is best for ME, and who relies on his own wit and wisdom to make it, then I guess that’s what I am.
Is that a bad thing Rig94086?

Is Pelagianism a bad thing?

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Genevivo De La O would approve.

A Mexican revolutionary, he captured a large number of government troops, whom he confined in a hacianda with a walled courtyard.

And he gave them a sporting chance – one by one, they were let out into the courtyard and allowed to run for the wall. If they could make it over before he could kill them, they could go free.

It is said he had to quit when his trigger finger was so swollen that he couldn’t get inside the trigger guard anymore.

Yep. No argument from me on that score.

The argument comes from trying to throw the baby out with the bathwater. My summary of the Canadian problem is that it is yet another experiment with the social gospel in the absence of the Real Presence of Jesus Christ. Our problem is the marginalization of faith in favour of secular humanism.

I do not subscribe to abandonning the social gospel. I subscribe to Catholics knowing about their faith and defending it in public. Including the ‘Catholic’ who heads up the current Ontario govt.

I also do not subscribe to abandonning the health care system up here. At least not until folks can wrap their heads around job creation and a competitive economy.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Yep. No argument from me on that score.

The argument comes from trying to throw the baby out with the bathwater. My summary of the Canadian problem is that it is yet another experiment with the social gospel in the absence of the Real Presence of Jesus Christ. Our problem is the marginalization of faith in favour of secular humanism.

I do not subscribe to abandonning the social gospel. I subscribe to Catholics knowing about their faith and defending it in public. Including the ‘Catholic’ who heads up the current Ontario govt.

I also do not subscribe to abandonning the health care system up here. At least not until folks can wrap their heads around job creation and a competitive economy.

I agree. We need to look to the Church for moral guidance.

And while we’re at it, we need to understand that in the end charity and social justice depends on us – not on the faceless bureaucracy.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Wow…not even close

Some people live entirely within their own heads and argue with their imagination, not with real opponents.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

I agree. We need to look to the Church for moral guidance.

And while we’re at it, we need to understand that in the end charity and social justice depends on us – not on the faceless bureaucracy.

True. Social Justice must be rooted in love. However, I recommend realism. The early church communities were no larger than 40 people each. Our societies vastly exceed those numbers.

We need govt. But we need to put govt in its place. Govt must serve US. Not the other way around. And so many of fellow Canadian citizens have blythely handed over their power and taxes to people who should not be trusted.



I tear my hair out over this. There is so much money missing that it staggers the imagination. And so few of those responsible for ‘losing’ or just plain taking that money have been brought to justice.

While the public – 65% of which are Catholic – keep on electing the same folks into power.

I don’t want to be a complainer. Too many of these conversations end up with me throwing up my hands and admitting defeat to an enemy larger than I. But the truth is that my God is the biggest Guy around.

I agonize for my country. But I pray for our deliverance and believe that God loves Canadians as much as He loves Americans and is pointing to a good place for those of us who will follow.

My life is my own. I will not sit by and watch while others try to claim it as their own. No. God made me free.

Pray for us. Both your country and mine will be going through some very arduous times in the next few years. God bless you, vern. You are a good person.

 

[vern_humphrey]

True. Social Justice must be rooted in love. However, I recommend realism. The early church communities were no larger than 40 people each. Our societies vastly exceed those numbers.

We need govt. But we need to put govt in its place. Govt must serve US. Not the other way around.

Which is precisely what our Founding Fathers believed – and why they wrote a Constitution that does exactly that.

And so many of fellow Canadian citizens have blythely handed over their power and taxes to people who should not be trusted.

And that’s the trend all over the world. You see what it does to your country, and you understand why so many Americans look to other countries, see what that does, and resist it so vigorously.

I tear my hair out over this. There is so much money missing that it staggers the imagination. And so few of those responsible for ‘losing’ or just plain taking that money have been brought to justice.

Thomas Jefferson had it right, “Government is like fire, a dangerous servant and a fearful master.”

While the public – 65% of which are Catholic – keep on electing the same folks into power.

I don’t want to be a complainer. Too many of these conversations end up with me throwing up my hands and admitting defeat to an enemy larger than I. But the truth is that my God is the biggest Guy around.

I agonize for my country. But I pray for our deliverance and believe that God loves Canadians as much as He loves Americans and is pointing to a good place for those of us who will follow.

My life is my own. I will not sit by and watch while others try to claim it as their own. No. God made me free.

Pray for us. Both your country and mine will be going through some very arduous times in the next few years. God bless you, vern. You are a good person.

You and your fellow Canadians are indeed in my prayers.