Right-wing fringe group building multimedia empire near Detroit

[commenter]

Sorry for being dense, but are you saying that a person or organization needs to function within the unity of the bishop ordinary even when that bishop is teaching or promoting error? If a bishop is allowing the teaching that there isn’t a one true Church do you need to be in unity?

The “unity” response in your extreme situation would be:

• Pray;
• Find out what, exactly, was said or done by whom;
• Discern if what you heard about was actually in disagreement with the Magisterium (not just something I happen to disagree with);
• Communicate with the person; sometimes what you heard was taken out of context;
• If communication does not clarify or elicit an appropriate change, contact the superior, who may be the bishop; enclose documentation, be brief, respectful, focus on one issue only (not, as “This is typical of the atrocities going on in this parish/diocese/country for the past 40 years!”)
• If the bishop does not respond, or the response is inadequate, and the situation is not corrected, forward a copy of any correspondence to the metropolitan archbishop of your province, who may or may not be a cardinal;
• If no adequate response, contact the Apostolic Delegate.

Any absence of courtesy, any display of anger on your part, undermines you.
All this is done in unity with the Church - encouraged under the Code of Canon Law. I would not do this unless there is some grave evil involved. Talk with other laity, or consult another priest perhaps. Don’t be a frequent flier, pick your battles. Don’t expect any “victory” or vindication for yourself. One time I complained about a vile sex ed program. The parish and diocesan authorities denied in writing that I heard what I heard, even when I sent them a handout. They never apologized. But the vile sex ed program quietly disappeared.

 

[commenter]

Your grouping of FSSPX with Call to Action, protestants and mormons pretty much tells me all i need to know about your mindset. Thank you.

Have a blessed, productive Lenten season.

Actually I agree with FSSPX on many things, just as I agree with conservative Protestants on many things. My only point in that post was, in response to another poster, to focus specifically on the one variable:

“In union with their bishop ordinary”…compared to…“not in union with their bishop ordinary”.

I did not say that was the only important variable, and I did not say all groups in union were equally good, nor are all groups not in union equally good. They aren’t.

Just looking at that one variable.

And yes, my mindset badly needs a good Lent.

 

[Fiasco]

Respect and suspicion are not mutually exclusive. Respect comes from charity, and suspicion from prudence. FYI - Homosexuals have been banned from entering the priesthood for several years now. On one hand, it had to have been seen as somewhat an issue for this to happen. On the other hand, it could not have been all that great of an influence if such a ban could have been imposed without a ripple

“for several years now”
That may be true, but in past years, some seminaries were so bad that a candidate had to at least act effeminately before he could be admitted.
Some seminaries were known as “feminaries”
One seminary was known as “The Pink Palace”
(Slightly off topic, Mary Immaculate seminary was renamed “Mary Inaccurate”!)

The late Fr Andrew Greeley labelled the homosexual network in the clergy “The Lavender Mafia”. He was deadly serious, and we can’t ignore the truth.
it’s a fifth column.

Bishops shuffled sex-offenders around to different parishes, and ignored or muzzled complaints. It took the secular press to drag the thing into the open. To be fair to them, some good bishops couldn’t believe that this sort of filth could happen. They weren’t like it themselves, so they couldn’t imagine how any of their priests could be so fallen.

The recent revelation by (later laicised) Fr Gregory Baum who was a major driving force behind the Winnipeg Statement is a shocker.

One should not have bitterness over a suicide. The act of killing oneself cannot be reduced to something so simplistic as being “over” something. There is no way to know either the actual motivation for such an act, or the depth of mental illness that accompanies a tragedy like that.

He was hounded to death.

The just finished Los Angeles Religious Education Congress, which has been an annual affair for so many years, sounds like a blot on the landscape. MV was there!
Years ago, Fr Corapi of sermon fame mentioned this get-together in one of his talks: AN ANNUAL EVENT NOT TO BE RECOMMENDED!

More than just a curiosity question:
Have Biden, Kaine, Podesta and various other so-called Catholics ever been ticked off by their bishops?

 

[TMC]

Talk about innuendo/ calumny

You should be ashamed of yourself

Save your outrage. The real shame is those that publicly defend a man who makes his living taking donations in exchange for defaming the Church and its leaders.

 

[commenter]

Save your outrage. The real shame is those that publicly defend a man who makes his living taking donations in exchange for defaming the Church and its leaders.

We cannot judge any man, including Michael Voris. But we can judge a particular ministry, such as Church Militant. I consider the fact that it is not in union with its bishop ordinary a huge weakness. I suspect all the good ideas presented here can also be found (more reliably) in ministries that **are **in unity with their ordinary, also working to eliminate abuses within the Church.

Working for change within the system is slow, tedious, a thankless job. But it brings about positive change. Tuning into outside ministries like CM is exciting and causes pleasurable feelings in supporters - “Take that, and that, and that, you heretics!” - but it does not bring about positive change. It also does not spiritually benefit the supporters, or fans.

 

[Fiasco]

Save your outrage. The real shame is those that publicly defend a man who makes his living taking donations in exchange for defaming the Church and its leaders.

In what way is calling out Church leaders who in reality are no such thing defaming the Church? Some of them are peddling spiritual poison, and need to be exposed…for their own sakes, for the sake of their flocks and for the sake of the whole Church.

As already said: if they were doing their job, there’d be no need for M Voris and Co.
Please, don’t act the innocent!
.

 

[Fiasco]

I suspect all the good ideas presented here can also be found (more reliably) in ministries that **are **in unity with their ordinary, also working to eliminate abuses within the Church.

Wishful thinking in most cases!

 

[goout]

In what way is calling out Church leaders who in reality are no such thing defaming the Church? Some of them are peddling spiritual poison, and need to be exposed…for their own sakes, for the sake of their flocks and for the sake of the whole Church.

As already said: if they were doing their job, there’d be no need for M Voris and Co.

.

What we need is Jesus, not quasi-political, quasi-religious diatribes than smear the whole Body with the same mud.

 

[commenter]

In what way is calling out Church leaders who in reality are no such thing defaming the Church? Some of them are peddling spiritual poison, and need to be exposed…for their own sakes, for the sake of their flocks and for the sake of the whole Church.

As already said: if they were doing their job, there’d be no need for M Voris and Co.
Please, don’t act the innocent!
.

I would compare CM to a macho type guy who is pushing the pedal to the metal, making a resounding roar equivalent to 90 miles an hour. Interesting! But the car is in neutral, so it is not actually moving anyone at all, engine is disconnected.

No actual change or reform is brought about, because CM is disconnected. Compare this to the slow, boring, ****thankless ****work done by groups, just as angry as you are, but are in unity (sometimes uncomfortable unity) with their bishop. Gradual change, slow movement forward better than pushing the pedal to the metal (while in neutral).

 

[TMC]

In what way is calling out Church leaders who in reality are no such thing defaming the Church? Some of them are peddling spiritual poison, and need to be exposed…for their own sakes, for the sake of their flocks and for the sake of the whole Church.

As already said: if they were doing their job, there’d be no need for M Voris and Co.
Please, don’t act the innocent!
.

Voris is not just speaking up and discussing issues. That is the right, and even duty, of all of us. He is attacking the Church and taking money from people in exchange for doing so. Does that not trouble you?

 

[dbreit2000]

while Mike Voris may rub some the wrong way, his heart is n seeing the Church return to her true calling. It seems that he has gotten under the (thin) skin of some. Last year, or the year befpre an attack was launched on him by someone using his past indiscretions against him. It was a terrible smear campaign. Now he is labeled right wing frige group. Makes me wonder.
I sure am glad that progressives are soooooo tolerant. I would hate to see what they would be like otherwise.

Totally agree!

 

[ringil]

Save your outrage. The real shame is those that publicly defend a man who makes his living taking donations in exchange for defaming the Church and its leaders.

AMEN to that!

 

[Ernie07]

The “unity” response in your extreme situation would be:

• Pray;
• Find out what, exactly, was said or done by whom;
• Discern if what you heard about was actually in disagreement with the Magisterium (not just something I happen to disagree with);
• Communicate with the person; sometimes what you heard was taken out of context;
• If communication does not clarify or elicit an appropriate change, contact the superior, who may be the bishop; enclose documentation, be brief, respectful, focus on one issue only (not, as “This is typical of the atrocities going on in this parish/diocese/country for the past 40 years!”)
• If the bishop does not respond, or the response is inadequate, and the situation is not corrected, forward a copy of any correspondence to the metropolitan archbishop of your province, who may or may not be a cardinal;
• If no adequate response, contact the Apostolic Delegate.

Any absence of courtesy, any display of anger on your part, undermines you.
All this is done in unity with the Church - encouraged under the Code of Canon Law. I would not do this unless there is some grave evil involved. Talk with other laity, or consult another priest perhaps. Don’t be a frequent flier, pick your battles. Don’t expect any “victory” or vindication for yourself. One time I complained about a vile sex ed program. The parish and diocesan authorities denied in writing that I heard what I heard, even when I sent them a handout. They never apologized. But the vile sex ed program quietly disappeared.

This is really excellent, well-thought out advice and I thank you for that. In my case this is about preaching Protestant errors in the name of evangelization within the Church. I’ve presented my case to my pastor who refused a dialogue and instead chastised me for questioning the many church leaders who endorse this program. My priest has even stated that I either get on board with this program or I can’t participate in any evangelization or teaching efforts at my parish. I’m examining becoming a member of a different local parish as a result. Michael Voris has taken the same issue up the chain to the Archdiocese of Detroit and they refuse also to have a dialogue. I’m not sure where it has gone from there.

So what do you do if you’ve gone to your superiors, presented your case with facts (the errors are in print and on video so it’s not rocket science), and yet you are stiff-armed? When leaders stop listening to their people, whether it’s in sports, business, politics, or church matters you have the potential of a big problem. I believe Voris’ frustration is that this “stiff-arming” has occurred on other items as well.

Tough call and I’d appreciate any additional thoughts you might have. Thanks again.

-Ernie-

 

[goout]

There is no difference between right wingers and left wingers when it comes to attacking the Church. In fact those who attack the Church in the name of orthodoxy can do much more damage due to the insidious nature of the attack.

Both lack charity and right reason. They are mere attachments to political agendas cloaked in religion.

 

[Ernie07]

Save your outrage. The real shame is those that publicly defend a man who makes his living taking donations in exchange for defaming the Church and its leaders.

Oh for the love of all…can you please provide a specific reference where Voris has preached error or unjustifiably “defamed” church leaders? I get it, people want him to tone down his tone and he hurts feelings, but what errors is he spreading? On what doctrinal points do you disagree with him on?

 

[Ernie07]

We cannot judge any man, including Michael Voris. But we can judge a particular ministry, such as Church Militant. I consider the fact that it is not in union with its bishop ordinary a huge weakness. I suspect all the good ideas presented here can also be found (more reliably) in ministries that **are **in unity with their ordinary, also working to eliminate abuses within the Church.

Working for change within the system is slow, tedious, a thankless job. But it brings about positive change. Tuning into outside ministries like CM is exciting and causes pleasurable feelings in supporters - “Take that, and that, and that, you heretics!” - but it does not bring about positive change. It also does not spiritually benefit the supporters, or fans.

On what doctrinal issue is he not in union? I get it that the Archdiocese of Detroit doesn’t like him because he calls them out, but where is his error? I’m begging you not to say tone!! LOL!

 

[J_Peterson]

Originally Posted by J_Peterson View Post
Also, Saint Anthony was a preacher. As far as I know Michael Voris isn’t authorized to preach. I’m not an expert on St. Anthony or anything but he was a Franciscan. Voris is no Franciscan.

And it’s a good thing he isn’t… the way some of them act: eg Fr Richard Rohr.

How bad is it that I’m happy that the Franciscans don’t make the Voris cut?

Fr. Richar Rohr is very well respected by many, Franciscans and otherwise. Are you against all Franciscans or just the ones that Voris doesn’t like?

 

[Pulvis]

As I stated earlier Archbishop Venerable +Fulton Sheen saw what was happening in the Church He loved so much. Many of his later recordings show this. This was his advice in 1972:
“Who is going to save our Church? Not our bishops, not our priests and religious. It’s up to YOU, the people. You have the minds, the eyes, the ears to save the Church. Your mission is to see that your priests act like priests, your bishops act like bishops, and your religious act like religious.”
— Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen, speaking to the Knights of Columbus, June 1972.

Wise advice from a true Man of God.

 

[Ernie07]

I would compare CM to a macho type guy who is pushing the pedal to the metal, making a resounding roar equivalent to 90 miles an hour. Interesting! But the car is in neutral, so it is not actually moving anyone at all, engine is disconnected.

No actual change or reform is brought about, because CM is disconnected. Compare this to the slow, boring, ****thankless ****work done by groups, just as angry as you are, but are in unity (sometimes uncomfortable unity) with their bishop. Gradual change, slow movement forward better than pushing the pedal to the metal (while in neutral).

But, what if the disconnection is the result of the leaders not wanting to listen? What if the disconnection is caused by the leaders not willing to meet and discuss?

I also have no idea what “uncomfortable unity” means. It’s not like I’d leave the Church, but if I were living in San Diego I’d be vehemently against the bishop’s views on communion to the divorced and embracing “LBGT families”. Is that what you’d characterize as “uncomfortable unity”? And I guess to each his own as I’d rather go “pedal to the metal” on blatant issues of error than slow walk it, but that might just be a personality thing.

Thanks.

-Ernie-

 

[goout]

One of the negative effects of this kind of fringe approach is that it provides an easy foil for the media.
The media can hold up his approach and use it as a straw man for the tone and content of orthodox Catholicism.