Right-wing fringe group building multimedia empire near Detroit

[J_Peterson]

Right wing fringe group? haha nice try

Michael Voris is a sound laymens voice of truth, when so many priests, bishops, religious, and laymen have gone astray in matters of faith. He sometimes goes too far publicly going after specific clergy when it may be better handled a different way but that is his way (when he isnt listened to) to handle a deep crisis in the Church. His preaching is mostly negative, but so was Jeremiah’s. The Church is blessed to have a voice like his, he is one of my favorites.

Here is a good talk about heresies within the Church by Michael Voris.
youtube.com/watch?v=ElWqUvogTso&list=WL&index=3

They are right-wing and fringe so therefore a right wing fringe group.

For an example from across the aisle, I consider The Catholic Workers to be a left wing fringe group. That doesn’t make me love them less, the opposite in fact. Fringe doesn’t mean evil or bad, just not mainstream.

 

[Ernie07]

I think your example is trivializing my point. This isn’t a question where one could dispute the truth. It was clear for anyone with the power of reason. The mod not only denied the truth multiple times, but proceeded to ban me. The site was trying to protect the precious snowflakes that need their safe space.

If someone is so unreliable on a trivial matter where the truth is evident, how can one consider them reliable on matters that require clear reasoning skills?

I didn’t mean to trivialize your point and I apologize for that. My example was more based on how the truth to one person seeing the same thing can be someone else’s “lie”. I’m always amazed at how Protestants can interpret John Chapter 6 the way they do. To me, for anyone with the power of reason, it is quite clear what Jesus said and meant. I don’t think Protestants are “precious snowflakes”, just for whatever reason misinformed and seeing “the truth” from a different lens that distorts what the truth really is. And yet they would have just the opposite point of view from me. I guess I’m just saying that sometimes getting to the truth is more complicated than it appears.

Peace.

-Ernie-

 

[edwest2]

“multimedia empire” ? What a joke. The Sunday Free Press (2-19-2017) ran a page one, above the fold, piece titled “The mainstream ambitions of the Church Militant.” The second paragraph exhibits the extreme left wing bias of the two Detroit newspapers, which is why I won’t buy them. They are clearly the anti-Catholic news. “Near Detroit” means Ferndale. A modest suburb.

Ed

 

[pnewton]

They are right-wing and fringe so therefore a right wing fringe group.

For an example from across the aisle, I consider The Catholic Workers to be a left wing fringe group. That doesn’t make me love them less, the opposite in fact. Fringe doesn’t mean evil or bad, just not mainstream.

That is an interesting point. Our Holy Father as a Jesuit Superior had priest on both sides of the political spectrum so far apart that makes our own partisan brinkmanship seem like a grad school election.

 

[Jig_Saw]

I didn’t mean to trivialize your point and I apologize for that. My example was more based on how the truth to one person seeing the same thing can be someone else’s “lie”. I’m always amazed at how Protestants can interpret John Chapter 6 the way they do. To me, for anyone with the power of reason, it is quite clear what Jesus said and meant. I don’t think Protestants are “precious snowflakes”, just for whatever reason misinformed and seeing “the truth” from a different lens that distorts what the truth really is. And yet they would have just the opposite point of view from me. I guess I’m just saying that sometimes getting to the truth is more complicated than it appears.

Peace.

-Ernie-

You, of course, should form your own opinion, but my experience with them has been negative.

 

[TMC]

I watched his video on the Jews. His premise seems pretty sound to me actually. First, he doesn’t call them “real Jews” and “fake Jews” but rather “ceased being what it had been” after the destruction of the temple in 70 A.D. After that they no longer had a temple, the priesthood, or a sacrifice so what he said is true. Then, a new man-made religion was formed to take its place. He makes no mention of God’s Chosen people or that they’re evil or deserving condemnation, but rather focuses on the covenant. That the Catholic Church, through the continuation of the priesthood and ultimate sacrifice of the Eucharist, represents the continuation of the covenant. Those Jews that remained faithful to the covenant became Christians while those that were unfaithful rejected Jesus as the Messiah. He ends the video by stating that today’s Judaism looks a lot like the Judaism of old, but at it’s core is very different.

What is wrong with the above? How is that offensive? Sounds like the truth to me. Is there some other source you’re referring to?

Thanks for the dialogue. I’m not biased one way or the other. I just hate seeing anyone get slandered without just cause. Maybe there is just cause in this case. I just haven’t seen it yet…actually as I do a little research I see the contrary.

-Ernie-

I have explained what is wrong with it. It is an attempt to de-legitimize the entire Jewish religion. The Church teaches that God stands by the Jewish people because God stands by His Covenant. Voris is saying that teaching does not apply to the Jews of today because they are not part of the Covenant. In first place, that directly contradicts Church doctrine. More importantly, it is an attempt to justify treating the Jews as unfit for salvation.

You don’t have to take my word for it. This is one of the reasons he was asked to stop calling his group Catholic, so take the bishops word for it.

 

[TMC]

Right wing fringe group? haha nice try

Michael Voris is a sound laymens voice of truth, when so many priests, bishops, religious, and laymen have gone astray in matters of faith. He sometimes goes too far publicly going after specific clergy when it may be better handled a different way but that is his way (when he isnt listened to) to handle a deep crisis in the Church. His preaching is mostly negative, but so was Jeremiah’s. The Church is blessed to have a voice like his, he is one of my favorites.

Here is a good talk about heresies within the Church by Michael Voris.
youtube.com/watch?v=ElWqUvogTso&list=WL&index=3

Sorry, I am not going to listen an hour of Voris ranting about how the Church is heretical and only he knows better. Can you summarize or list his “heresies”?

 

[TMC]

Your views are completely inconsistent with the teaching of the Church. The Church does not teach that today’s Jews follow an entirely man-made religion, or that Jews must convert to Christianity to be saved. Sorry, but those views are not consistent with Catholic teaching.

 

[edwest2]

In the 1960s, a Washington government official said he was proud of America’s “Judeo/Christian Heritage.” That got lost among the craziness that began in the 1970s till today. Quite sad.

Ed

 

[TMC]

For those who may like a refresher of what the Church actually teaches about Judaism, here is a good and recent summary:

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/relations-jews-docs/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_20151210_ebraismo-nostra-aetate_en.html#5._The_universality_of_salvation_in_Jesus_Christ_and_God’s_unrevoked_covenant_with_Israel

Just one key quote, but I encourage anyone who wants to understand the Church’s teaching on Judaism to read the whole thing:

The Church is called the new people of God (cf. “Nostra aetate”, No.4) but not in the sense that the people of God of Israel has ceased to exist. The Church “was prepared in a remarkable way throughout the history of the people of Israel and by means of the Old Covenant” (“Lumen gentium”, 2). The Church does not replace the people of God of Israel, since as the community founded on Christ it represents in him the fulfilment of the promises made to Israel. This does not mean that Israel, not having achieved such a fulfilment, can no longer be considered to be the people of God.

 

[commenter]

Wow, not at all how I see at least his latest videos and writings. Maybe his delivery is blunt with an “in your face” style, but for those of us that don’t accept even a smidge of error or heresy to enter the Church he seems to be on our side. I see it more that he calls out church leaders for being weak rather than attacking the Church. Maybe if he stated it in a nicer tone everyone would be happier.

Operating a religious ministry outside the approval of the Church is a lot more than a ****smidgen ****of error! There are many respected, orthodox ministries that do operate within the approval of the Church, including Catholic Answers, EWTN, and others. They do in fact - gently - point out areas where the larger Church apostolate may be falling short. I suspect they sometimes gnash their teeth and cause some church leaders to gnash their teeth, as it is not always clear where the line should be drawn.

They have at least some relationship with their local bishop. I bet they have a more comfortable relationship with some of their own ordinary- bishops than with others. Having a relationship with their local bishop might bring them some assistance or information they might not otherwise have.

If Mr. Voris were to re engage his ministry with the approval of the Church, his insights would have lots more credibility.

Years ago, sponsoring a religious ministry with no approval of the Church would have been considered appalling! The fact that so many (left, right, and others) do it does not make it any less appalling. It shows how much prudence has been eroded.

 

[Fiasco]

I was banned from Church Militant for saying that Sean Spicer lied about the size of the crowd at the inauguration, which he did. The CM representative accused me of ‘slandering a good Catholic’ and used such convoluted logic to defend Spicer that I question anything analysis from that website. Basically, they couldn’t call a lie a lie and they couldn’t stand for someone who upset their little apple cart. So, it is a place for precious snowflakes to have their safespace where they can safely believe that Donald Trump is the best president for Catholics ever and rip into the Church hierarchy without being challenged.

“their little apple cart”? Voris has bigger fish to fry, and thicker skin, than to be upset by your “dissenting” posts.
Reserve the “precious snowflakes” for the likes of Miley Cyrus (with her sobbing on election night), Michael Moore (the heavyweight champion of Hollywood) and Madonna who gave such an eloquent speech just on a month ago.

A much more apt likeness would be with Saint Anthony of Padua. He was known as “the hammer of heretecs”; and he even called out an archbishop during one of his PUBLIC sermons (“You there, with the mitre!”). The archbishop repented…
Saint Anthony treated the ordinary peasants in the pews much more gently.

To say that Voris rips into the Church hierarchy without being challenged is absurd. At least one archdiocese even dug into his past for mud to fling. As we know, it was there. He’s been attacked a lot of times.
.
What certain hierarchs hate about Voris is that he challenges THEM! They don`t like being called to account for the way they’ve neglected to teach and protect their flocks. What’s worse is that they can’t stop him because he’s independent of any official hierarchical control.
The mission of the Church is more than just social justice. How about the ***salvation of ***souls, the Church’s primary mission? Voris’s “Church of Nice” term fits perfectly in too many cases.
.
Voris isn’t a snowflake. He’s more like Thor: the god of thunder.

Paul wrote:

“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control.”

Our Lord gave the money-changers a tongue lashing (and drove them out of the Temple), and told the scribes and pharisees a few home truths. Voris is doing the same.
i don’t deny he goes over the top sometimes, eg his harping on at Bishop Barron and his “Dare we hope…”; but overall, he’s far better than most “Catholic” outfits.

Church Militant took up Cardinal Burke’s 54-day rosary novena initiative: an appeal to Heaven for a good election outcome…

 

[HOTI]

The local bishop can determine what ministries are authentically Catholic, and thus prohibit them from calling themselves Catholic.

Which is why Voris changed the name of*his organization from “Real Catholic” to “Church Militant”.

I don’t understand how the following groups can continue using the name. Here we have a phony Catholic group that promotes abortion and has been around since 1973. If anyone knows of the Church in legal battle asking them to stop using the name I would like to know. I can’t say I am too familiar with Voris’ work, but the little I have seen seemed faithful to Church teaching. He appears to be very orthodox and he certainly doesn’t promote abortion.

*Organizations that advance leftist agendas by infiltrating churches and religious congregations:

Catholics in Alliance for the Common Good advocates a brand of “social justice” that would counteract the “greed, materialism, and excessive individualism” that are allegedly inherent in capitalism.91

Catholics for Choice—formerly known as Catholics for a Free Choice—is a nominally Catholic organization that “believes in a world where everyone has equal access to … safe and legal abortion services.”95*

discoverthenetworks.org/individualProfile.asp?indid=977

 

[Fiasco]

The local bishop can determine…

Which is why Voris changed the name of*his organization from “Real Catholic” to “Church Militant”.

Individual bishops “CAN determine”, but whether they will is something else.
Voris consulted a canon lawyer about the name-change “request”, and was told that he couldn’t be forced to change. Regardless, the current name reflects his ministry more accurately, and ties in with The Church Militant, as the Church on Earth is meant to be.

Operating a religious ministry outside the approval of the Church…

They have at least some relationship with their local bishop. I bet they have a more comfortable relationship with some of their own ordinary- bishops than with others. Having a relationship with their local bishop might bring them some assistance or information they might not otherwise have.

Voris used to be an investigative journalist; and his savvy in that area is an asset in his current ministry. He has contacts, as well, some of whom wish to remain anonymous for fear of backlash.

If Mr. Voris were to re engage his ministry with the approval of the Church, his insights would have lots more credibility.

By being totally free of any authorities, he’s free to say whatever he’s convinced is necessary, without having to worry about being pressured/muzzled, having finances withdrawn etc. His outfit just happens to be physically in Detroit, but it could be elsewhere, and be just as effective.

Years ago, sponsoring a religious ministry with no approval of the Church would have been considered appalling! The fact that so many (left, right, and others) do it does not make it any less appalling. It shows how much prudence has been eroded.

It also shows that some shepherds can’t always be relied on to adequately protect their flocks.

I don’t understand how the following groups…

Organizations that advance leftist agendas by infiltrating churches and religious congregations:

Catholics in Alliance for the Common Good advocates a brand of “social justice” that would counteract the “greed, materialism, and excessive individualism” that are allegedly inherent in capitalism.91

Soros reminds me of our Lord’s words: “What does it profit a man…”. Voris has given at least one detailed lecture about him. What a web of deceit!

You didn’t mention the fishwrap people!

Voris is convinced that until the homosexual plague is rooted out, the crisis will continue.
.
The whole thing’s tragic. There shouldn’t be any place for a group like Church Militant, but “them’s the breaks”,

 

[pnewton]

I don’t understand how the following groups can continue using the name.

They do so illicitly, violating canon law. Some end up in full schism or excommunicated.

 

[pnewton]

A much more apt likeness would be with Saint Anthony of Padua. He was known as “the hammer of heretecs”;
.
Voris isn’t a snowflake. He’s more like Thor: the god of thunder.

Our Lord gave the money-changers a tongue lashing (and drove them out of the Temple), and told the scribes and pharisees a few home truths. Voris is doing the same.
i don’t deny he goes over the top sometimes, eg his harping on at Bishop Barron and his “Dare we hope…”; but overall, he’s far better than most “Catholic” outfits.

Church Militant took up Cardinal Burke’s 54-day rosary novena initiative: an appeal to Heaven for a good election outcome…

Except.

Mr. Voris is neither a priest, saint or agent of the Catholic Church. Your comparison is not better than that of Miley Cyrus, an entertainer turned crusader. He is not operating in any capacity for the Catholic Church. That does not mean he may not do some good for some people, or that what he is doing is wrong. But it does mean that his voice carries no more authority than a non-Catholic lay media person saying the same thing. If what he says is true, then that truth has its own weight, as it would if delivered by an atheist.

And oh, the money-changers. Really? I assure you Michael Voris is not Jesus.

When I weigh and discern the spirit in something that is said, the tone is everything. St. Paul told us what the fruits of the Spirit are, that we are to know them by their fruits. While “Gentle Jesus” was quite direct and zealous, He got his reputation for gentleness because that is what he was characterized most by. So, while I cannot judge Michael Voris, as I do not know anything about him off the air, I can judge his on air persona and message as not demonstrating, on the whole those fruits that St. Paul described. In fact, his attack on the Church for its visible display of these* same *fruits of the Holy Spirit, his so-called “Church of Nice,” is why I do not deem his programming as credible.

 

[TMC]

So this is your tactic at this point, to deny that Church documents represent Church teaching?

Again, those who want to know what the Church teaches should read the document I linked to, and the many other documents referenced therein.

 

[commenter]

By being totally free of any authorities, he’s free to say whatever he’s convinced is necessary, without having to worry about being pressured/muzzled, having finances withdrawn etc.

“SLIPPERY SLOPE WARNING”
This is the argument I hear from Catholics who go to non denominational churches.

 

[Ernie07]

Except.

Mr. Voris is neither a priest, saint or agent of the Catholic Church. Your comparison is not better than that of Miley Cyrus, an entertainer turned crusader. He is not operating in any capacity for the Catholic Church. That does not mean he may not do some good for some people, or that what he is doing is wrong. But it does mean that his voice carries no more authority than a non-Catholic lay media person saying the same thing. If what he says is true, then that truth has its own weight, as it would if delivered by an atheist.

And oh, the money-changers. Really? I assure you Michael Voris is not Jesus.

When I weigh and discern the spirit in something that is said, the tone is everything. St. Paul told us what the fruits of the Spirit are, that we are to know them by their fruits. While “Gentle Jesus” was quite direct and zealous, He got his reputation for gentleness because that is what he was characterized most by. So, while I cannot judge Michael Voris, as I do not know anything about him off the air, I can judge his on air persona and message as not demonstrating, on the whole those fruits that St. Paul described. In fact, his attack on the Church for its visible display of these* same *fruits of the Holy Spirit, his so-called “Church of Nice,” is why I do not deem his programming as credible.

Wow, what a difference a few hours makes since I last posted in this thread!! Great dialogue overall from everyone and much deeper that I ever could have gone! My comment related to the above post is around this whole notion of tone. Jesus was gentle, but for you to dismiss his reaction in the temple with the money changers is baffling to me. He was anything but gentle as Jesus overturned tables to make His point. Gentle would be to kindly remind the money-changers that what they were doing was wrong, but rather Jesus exhibited a righteous anger, which manifested itself in a physical response that probably shocked everyone there. I guess “tone” or used differently “political correctness” just bothers me. Plus, I use that verse where Jesus overturns tables to justify my sometimes overly aggressive “tone”!! Haha!

-Ernie-

 

[HOTI]

Soros reminds me of our Lord’s words: “What does it profit a man…”. Voris has given at least one detailed lecture about him. What a web of deceit!

You didn’t mention the fishwrap people!

Voris is convinced that until the homosexual plague is rooted out, the crisis will continue.
.
The whole thing’s tragic. There shouldn’t be any place for a group like Church Militant, but “them’s the breaks”,

Who are the fishwrap people? Fishwrap refers to newspapers that are so useless you just use them to wrap fish or place in litter boxes. At least that is my understanding. Do you mean all the papers Soros funds as well? That link had plenty of information for anyone interested.

Right now I am trying to figure out how an organization that promotes abortion gets to use the name, Catholic. I don’t know what you mean by “there shouldn’t be any place for a group like Church Militant…”. Even lay Catholics are called to evangelize.