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estesbob
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Will you show similar contempt if a liberal icon dies-one who fought hard for civil rights but did all in their power to keep abortion legal?
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The_Barbarian
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Did, in fact. I got into a rather extensive argument on another board over a certain deceased democrat in particular, and the democratic party in general.Will you show similar contempt if a liberal icon dies-one who fought hard for civil rights but did all in their power to keep abortion legal?
I explained why I would be voting for libertarians, who at least keep an open mind on the issue.
And they asked me a question similar to the one you asked. Everyone likes to overlook the sins they don’t think are that bad.
Helms differed from abortionists only in the timing.
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jman507
Guest
Still Hitler was for abortion too. I would say you can compare any two people, as a matter actually you just did. The problem is one can be too lazy when making the comparisions. There are fundamental differences in their philosphy, which can render something appearing the same to be different.Actually Hitler was against abortions, for healthy Aryan women in fact it was punishable by death in extreme cases, now those less than “humans” in his book, it was encouraged and even forced on since they were little more than animals. He also was against prostitution, homosexuality and believed in a strong family. He was very conservative in his morals which were one of the reasons why many people responded to him after the moral depravity of the twenties.
Now do I think Helms was as bad as him or should be compared to him.
NO and I will happily say a prayer for the repose of his soul.
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estesbob
Guest
We shall see.Did, in fact. I got into a rather extensive argument on another board over a certain deceased democrat in particular, and the democratic party in general.
I explained why I would be voting for libertarians, who at least keep an open mind on the issue.
And they asked me a question similar to the one you asked. Everyone likes to overlook the sins they don’t think are that bad.
Helms differed from abortionists only in the timing.
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The_Barbarian
Guest
We have already seen that you are willing to denounce those who favor killing the unborn, but praise men like Helms who committed great evil against those already born.
And that is all we need to know.
And that is all we need to know.
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Polaris
Guest
Still Hitler was for abortion too. I would say you can compare any two people, as a matter actually you just did. The problem is one can be too lazy when making the comparisions. There are fundamental differences in their philosphy, which can render something appearing the same to be different.
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No he wasnt because of what he considered human. If I aborted my cat's kittens would that be abortion? No. He did not think of gypsies, or jews as humans. So they could be killed like kittens. The basis of his defintion of human, and therefore their human rights, was their race.I say God knows best and I will still happily pray for the repose of his soul like I do for everyone from Mother Teresa to Hitler.
P.S. (I do not think it is wise when engaging in pro life dialoge to say Hitler was for abortion because he wasnt, and he held many conservative ideals and was not an ultraliberal as many christians like to make him out to be. Compare the moral ideals of the third reich and those of the twenties with the secular view and the catholic view, the third reich morals matches the catholic morals, while the twenties morals matches the secualr view. He was very complex and in no way two-dimensional in that he deserves respect.)
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jman507
Guest
Both libertarianism and fascism are going to share certain aspects of liberalism and conservatism, the trouble is that all four are fundamentally different ideological theories. I would suppose if you go into the fundamental philosophical outlooks of Helm’s and Hitler’s view of politics they are going to be different.No he wasnt because of what he considered human. If I aborted my cat’s kittens would that be abortion? No. He did not think of gypsies, or jews as humans. So they could be killed like kittens. The basis of his defintion of human, and therefore their human rights, was their race.
Jesse Helms was against anti-lynching laws, civil rights, and interracial marriage. Blacks were not regarded as having the same rights or dignity as other humans which is very much like Hitlers view but to a lesser extant. I also think civil rights should be just as important to a Cahtolic as abortion because the two are linked, that is every person has an equal dignity black, white adult, child, and feteus. I am prolife because I have a civil rights view of it as equal dignity and rights. Does that make sense why some will not morn his loss as much as others?
I say God knows best and I will still happily pray for the repose of his soul like I do for everyone from Mother Teresa to Hitler.
P.S. (I do not think it is wise when engaging in pro life dialoge to say Hitler was for abortion because he wasnt, and he held many conservative ideals and was not an ultraliberal as many christians like to make him out to be. Compare the moral ideals of the third reich and those of the twenties with the secular view and the catholic view, the third reich morals matches the catholic morals, while the twenties morals matches the secualr view. He was very complex and in no way two-dimensional in that he deserves respect.)
I suppose you will now tell me Hitler was better than Helms, because Helms thought blacks as humans, but then transgressed against their civil rights. Hitler transgressed on many people’s civil rights, but they really didn’t have civil rights in his mind. If your going to do that, you might as well say Helms thought what he was doing was proper in his mind, so it was OK. Now there is something to say for a person being less culpable for a sin if he truly was following his conscience even though it was ultimately wrong. On the other hand, Hitler was very very gravely wrong in what he did when compared to any transgressions Helms committed.
I suppose Hitler was really aligned with Catholic morality if you omit some awfully large aspects of Catholic morality. Hitler may have been “pro-family,” but it was not for it’s autonomy. It wasn’t very Christian either to think that some are humans and some are not. Jesus did send the gospel to both Jew and Gentile.
If anything you can see see vast differences between the two by what you said his stance was on Aryan abortion – it could be punishable by death. Helms may have taken a very strong stance against abortion, but I doubt he thought killing a person who had an abortion would be proper.
(As a matter, I am not having a pro-life dialogue, I’m having a dialogue regarding the comparison of Hitler and Helms. In comparison Hitler could be said to have supported abortions, granted it would have to be qualified, since it depended upon the circumstances of “fitness.”
Besides, if you think it is not proper to say that Hitler supported abortion, because of his stance on abortion by Aryans, maybe you might figure out why I would say it is not proper to make a comparison of Hitler and Helms or the Third Reich and Catholic morality, concluding they are much the same. There is much omitted in the comparison that would be relevant.)
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estesbob
Guest
Here is a letter Helms wrote in 1965. At the time, Helms was an executive at WRAL-TV in Raleigh, N.C.
I want to do something to help the Negro race to recognize the opportunity that awaits it. It is not enough for me to hire a few qualified Negroes for good jobs in our own company. To tell you the truth, we would like to have more than we presently have. But there is great difficulty in finding qualified people–not merely in terms of training and experience, but in attitude and potential as well.We now have Negroes operating our film center, for example, and our very best film editor is a Negro. You know about J.D. Lewis, who worked with us for so long–until he got an excellent opportunity elsewhere. So far, so good. But where do all of us go from here?I propose to set up at our station a separate department which, for want of a better name, I think we shall call our “Department of Racial Development.” A very competent man will be given the full-time assignment of operating this department. We plan to budget it as necessity and opportunity indicate.I would like to schedule a regular program, perhaps daily, and certainly once or twice a week, when job opportunities for Negroes can be discussed on the air. Specific job opportunities, that is. I hope we can persuade Mr. Coltrane to be a regular participant. [This apparently refers to David Coltrane, chairman of the Good Neighbor Council, a state agency charged with encouraging employment without regard to race.] Further, I want to have qualified Negroes to appear on this program to say: "My qualifications are thus and so, my educational background is such."Our department head and Mr. Coltrane would then work to find places for these people in business and industry. We would make constructive examples of them. We would have personnel people of the various companies appear and give testimony as to the productivity of the Negroes whom they have hired.A step further: The Negroes who have obtained jobs would then be the best possible spokesmen to urge others to prepare themselves, to stay in school, to apply themselves.I think I need not go on with the details of what might be done. What I want, simply said, is to create a climate of acceptance among the races–both ways. As it now stands, a lot of people are doing a lot of talking, and are making whatever token efforts might be necessary to “get along.” That is not enough.
Other myths about Helms are reubutted here:
jessehelmscenter.org/jessehelms/fictionortruth.asp#handsad
I want to do something to help the Negro race to recognize the opportunity that awaits it. It is not enough for me to hire a few qualified Negroes for good jobs in our own company. To tell you the truth, we would like to have more than we presently have. But there is great difficulty in finding qualified people–not merely in terms of training and experience, but in attitude and potential as well.We now have Negroes operating our film center, for example, and our very best film editor is a Negro. You know about J.D. Lewis, who worked with us for so long–until he got an excellent opportunity elsewhere. So far, so good. But where do all of us go from here?I propose to set up at our station a separate department which, for want of a better name, I think we shall call our “Department of Racial Development.” A very competent man will be given the full-time assignment of operating this department. We plan to budget it as necessity and opportunity indicate.I would like to schedule a regular program, perhaps daily, and certainly once or twice a week, when job opportunities for Negroes can be discussed on the air. Specific job opportunities, that is. I hope we can persuade Mr. Coltrane to be a regular participant. [This apparently refers to David Coltrane, chairman of the Good Neighbor Council, a state agency charged with encouraging employment without regard to race.] Further, I want to have qualified Negroes to appear on this program to say: "My qualifications are thus and so, my educational background is such."Our department head and Mr. Coltrane would then work to find places for these people in business and industry. We would make constructive examples of them. We would have personnel people of the various companies appear and give testimony as to the productivity of the Negroes whom they have hired.A step further: The Negroes who have obtained jobs would then be the best possible spokesmen to urge others to prepare themselves, to stay in school, to apply themselves.I think I need not go on with the details of what might be done. What I want, simply said, is to create a climate of acceptance among the races–both ways. As it now stands, a lot of people are doing a lot of talking, and are making whatever token efforts might be necessary to “get along.” That is not enough.
Other myths about Helms are reubutted here:
jessehelmscenter.org/jessehelms/fictionortruth.asp#handsad
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