RIP Pope Shenouda III

[Trebor135]

I had read that they were trying to take off his head - a sickening story in any event and that one truly is a martyr for Christ.

Indeed.

Lord, welcome Ayman into the kingdom of heaven. Work to bring about the repentance and conversion of all involved. Console the family and friends of this seventeen-year-old student. Protect the Christians of Egypt from all such harm. Amen.

We should all share the AINA article on Facebook and other social media to spread the word. Heaven only knows how many similar cases have gone unreported and/or unnoticed…

 

[dzheremi]

Well, I still think your Agpeya tradition is magnificent! I had a neighbour who told me he did the full seven Hours and even went to bed early to get up for the Midnight Hour.

I must say that your Midnight Hour is something I find spectacularly inspiring - especially how it is divided into three “Watches” to commemorate the three times our Lord returned to prayer in the Garden on the night before His Passion.

Is there an online source for Coptic neck crosses/matabs and the like?

Alex

Well, yes, it is possible to do all 7 hours…for those for whom it is possible. When I first got an Agpeya of my own, I did it as your neighbor did (except without all three night watches…I usually did one per night, cycling through them twice in a week). It wasn’t until some months later that a talk with a layperson made me realize that I was using the Agpeya more like the monks do. I’d love to get back to that, but it is just not realistic in my current circumstances. I think the point in bringing it everywhere is to be able to pray everywhere, not to sweat not being able to do all 7 full hours. The Coptic Orthodox who I know are very pragmatic about this sort of thing.

I do not have any Coptic neck crosses, so I’m afraid I can’t help you with this. Most of the places online that I’ve seen have only hand crosses or display crosses.

 

[Khalid]

He wasn’t decapitated, but he was murdered by his classmates after refusing to cover up his cross tattoo after having been ordered to do so by his Muslim teacher. The beating began in the classroom proper (encouraged by the teacher, who nearly physically choked the boy), and continued when Ayman fled the classroom. By the time an ambulance arrived to take him from the school grounds, he was dead from the beating.

Martyr for Christ, Ayman Nabil Labib, pray for us before the Lord that He may deliver His persecuted believers from the hands of their oppressors, and comfort and protect all who are left behind to mourn in the wake of these terrible incidents.

Eternal rest grant unto him, O Lord
May perpetual light shine upon him.

 

[Khalid]

Well, I still think your Agpeya tradition is magnificent! I had a neighbour who told me he did the full seven Hours and even went to bed early to get up for the Midnight Hour.

I must say that your Midnight Hour is something I find spectacularly inspiring - especially how it is divided into three “Watches” to commemorate the three times our Lord returned to prayer in the Garden on the night before His Passion.

Is there an online source for Coptic neck crosses/matabs and the like?

Alex

I’m sure - we have several traditional crosses, the most recognizable one being an Egyptian ankh with a patibulum across it and the loop on the top of the ankh turned in to a globus cruciger. Also very ornate crosses, and a cross with four “T” shapes (nails) set at 45º angles in a circle around the center of a + cross.

 

[Khalid]

Please don’t tell anyone, but I have an icon of St Dioscoros written on papyrus . . .

Alex

You do joke?! Dioscorus, deposed patriarch of Alexandria, a saint?

 

[CarloMagnus]

In Nomine Patris, et Filius, et Spiritui Sanctis.

Our Father in Heaven,
Lead Pope Shenouda III of Egypt into the Halls of your Kingdom,
Grant him peace.
And bring us to be closer to you through his example,
As a faithful follower of your Church.
May his prayers of a Christian Egypt remain strong,
And that in the times of tribulation,
The Coptics never surrender their faith.

In Nomine Patris, et Filius, et Spiritui Sanctis.
Amen.

 

[dzheremi]

You do joke?! Dioscorus, deposed patriarch of Alexandria, a saint?

Pope St. Dioscorus is commemorated in the Coptic Synaxarium on Tout 7. It is believed by the Copts that he was and is completely Orthodox, and that his treatment at the Council of Chalcedon was unfair and politically-motivated, not a matter of faith.

 

[Fone_Bone_2001]

Absolutely! The Copts are not monophysite, despite how they may have been described in the past. I invite Marduk to comment further on Coptic Christology since it’s out of my area of expertise, but I consider the Copts completely orthodox. Completely.

Well said.

That’s just sickening.

And Secularists here will still insist there is no such thing as persecution of Christians.

I don’t know how they can deny it. It’s pretty apparent. Coptic Christians in particular today seem to suffer a great deal of really nasty, violent persecution.

 

[Credo_ergo_sum]

Please don’t tell anyone, but I have an icon of St Dioscoros written on papyrus . . .

Alex

You make me jealous. An icon of St. Dioscoros on papyrus. How did you get it? Mind taking a picture of it? I’d love to see it.

You do joke?! Dioscorus, deposed patriarch of Alexandria, a saint?

Last time I checked, you didn’t decide who’s a saint or not

 

[dcointin]

Pope St. Dioscorus is commemorated in the Coptic Synaxarium on Tout 7. It is believed by the Copts that he was and is completely Orthodox, and that his treatment at the Council of Chalcedon was unfair and politically-motivated, not a matter of faith.

That’s often the case in history I personally feel that way about Origen of Alexandria as well.

 

[Credo_ergo_sum]

That’s often the case in history I personally feel that way about Origen of Alexandria as well.

Unlike Origen Dioscorus was orthodox. But everyone errs, Origen might very well be a saint. He wasn’t asked by a council to retract his statements during his lifetime, he was only condemned by II Constantinople, some 300 years after his lifetime.

 

[Alexander_Roman]

You do joke?! Dioscorus, deposed patriarch of Alexandria, a saint?

Yes indeed - he is a saint of the Oriental Orthodox Church and is venerated by all Oriental Orthodox. He was deposed by those “Byzantine Dyophysites” you know . . .

Other Oriental Orthodox Saints include St Philoxenus of Mabbugh, St Timothy Aelurus of Alexandria and St Severus of Antioch.

This issue came up during the EO/OO ecumenical discussions. In a reunited Church, of course, there would be no question but that St Dioscoros would continue to be venerated by the Oriental Orthodox. If you Google his name, you can get a colour icon of him too, if you would like . . .

Alex

 

[Alexander_Roman]

You make me jealous. An icon of St. Dioscoros on papyrus. How did you get it? Mind taking a picture of it? I’d love to see it.

Could I call you “Cre” for short?

I picked it up in one of our several great Coptic cathedrals here in Toronto in their bookstore. I’m not very savvy with the tekky stuff, but if you Google him, icons will come up.

The Coptic gentlemen who were behind the counter in the bookstore feigned some surprise when I told them I was a UGCC Chalcedonian . . . But then one of them waved his hand and said, “But in these ecumenical times . . .”

Personally, I think that one of the best ways to promote real ecumenicalism among the Christian communions is to share one another’s saints (I draw the line at the popularly venerated Rasputin and Tsar Ivan the Terrible though . . . )

I’ve also written akathists in honour of the Anglican King Charles the Martyr (also used by Catholics who are converts from Anglicanism but who continue to venerated St Charles privately, as did Bl. Cardinal Newman) and also one to John Hus (for converts to Orthodoxy who come from the Hussite tradition and there are a few). The Czech Orthodox Church is now planning to formally canonize John Hus as an Orthodox saint (it is a long story, believe me) and they like my akathist to him . . .

Alex

 

[Alexander_Roman]

Unlike Origen Dioscorus was orthodox. But everyone errs, Origen might very well be a saint. He wasn’t asked by a council to retract his statements during his lifetime, he was only condemned by II Constantinople, some 300 years after his lifetime.

I bow to you sir - Origen was a great teacher and thinker who submitted everything to the Church’s judgement (as did Bl. Joachim di Fiore whose teachings were condemned posthumously by the Church but he submitted himself to the Church’s judgement before he died). I believe Fr. Robert Lentz has a decent icon of Origen of Alexandria - who did die a Confessor after enduring long torture and who WAS locally honoured by the people at Alexandria.

It’s a shame about Tertullian who was such a brilliant defender of the Church even after he went into formal schism . . .

Alex

 

[Credo_ergo_sum]

Credo ergo sum;9121753:

You make me jealous. An icon of St. Dioscoros on papyrus. How did you get it? Mind taking a picture of it? I’d love to see it.

Could I call you “Cre” for short?

I picked it up in one of our several great Coptic cathedrals here in Toronto in their bookstore. I’m not very savvy with the tekky stuff, but if you Google him, icons will come up.

The Coptic gentlemen who were behind the counter in the bookstore feigned some surprise when I told them I was a UGCC Chalcedonian . . . But then one of them waved his hand and said, “But in these ecumenical times . . .”

Personally, I think that one of the best ways to promote real ecumenicalism among the Christian communions is to share one another’s saints (I draw the line at the popularly venerated Rasputin and Tsar Ivan the Terrible though . . . )

I’ve also written akathists in honour of the Anglican King Charles the Martyr (also used by Catholics who are converts from Anglicanism but who continue to venerated St Charles privately, as did Bl. Cardinal Newman) and also one to John Hus (for converts to Orthodoxy who come from the Hussite tradition and there are a few). The Czech Orthodox Church is now planning to formally canonize John Hus as an Orthodox saint (it is a long story, believe me) and they like my akathist to him . . .

Alex

Very well said, in the Heavenly Jerusalem there are no schisms. And of course you can call me “Cre”

 

[Contarini]

I don’t know how they can deny it.

I don’t either. But then, I don’t know that they do. I know quite a few secularists of one sort or another, and I’ve never heard any of them deny that Christians are persecuted in some parts of the world.

I think the poster may be confusing a denial that Christians are persecuted anywhere (which would be absurd) with a denial that they are persecuted in the U.S. (a point that could be argued on either side, depending on how you define “persecution”–and certainly if Christians are persecuted in America it would be equally true to say that they persecute).

 

[Nine_Two]

I don’t either. But then, I don’t know that they do. I know quite a few secularists of one sort or another, and I’ve never heard any of them deny that Christians are persecuted in some parts of the world.

I think the poster may be confusing a denial that Christians are persecuted anywhere (which would be absurd) with a denial that they are persecuted in the U.S. (a point that could be argued on either side, depending on how you define “persecution”–and certainly if Christians are persecuted in America it would be equally true to say that they persecute).

I’ve known plenty.

 

[Fone_Bone_2001]

I don’t either. But then, I don’t know that they do. I know quite a few secularists of one sort or another, and I’ve never heard any of them deny that Christians are persecuted in some parts of the world.

I think the poster may be confusing a denial that Christians are persecuted anywhere (which would be absurd) with a denial that they are persecuted in the U.S. (a point that could be argued on either side, depending on how you define “persecution”–and certainly if Christians are persecuted in America it would be equally true to say that they persecute).

Yes, I see all that. I didn’t mean to claim that some secularists deny that Christians undergo persecution today. I simply meant that if someone did claim that, it would be pretty absurd.

 

[murtad]

Your disrespect for the reposed Coptic Orthodox Pope is shameful, sir, and you should apologise for your tone and comments!

I have never disrespected the Coptic Monophysite Pope Shenouda III. Please do not confuse Monophysites with the Holy Orthodox Church as the rightful Coptic Orthodox Pope of Alexandria is His All Holiness Theodoros II, patriarch of Alexandria and all Africa. There are many Coptic Melchites in the Arab world today who just as Coptic Catholics rejected Shenouda III.

Rome itself has repudiated the “uniate” model of church union that you praise so highly (and it would even be wrong to speak of my Church, the Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Church, to be in communion with Rome since Rome does for us whatever the Russian Orthodox Church affirms should be done - such as deny acknowlegement of a patriarchate for the UGCC).

Rome has never repudiated the Uniate Model especially as we realise ancient schisms happened not merely because of theological reasons but also because of ethnic culture. We can have various Eastern Rites, such as Coptic Rite, Maronite Rite, Syriac Rite, Chaldean Rite, and even the Muslim Rite. Many Muslims are entering communion with Rome the way the Monophysites and the Nestorians do as they realise we can still keep of ethnic identity and be Catholics.

Be that as it may, there is no longer any misunderstanding between the Oriental and Eastern Orthodox Churches on the score of Christology.

This is incorrect. The Coptic Orthodox Church in Egypt (also called Coptic Melchites or Coptic Chalcedonians) is headed by His All Holiness Pope Theodoros II is not yet in full communion with the Coptic Monophysite Church. If you read Orthodox Christianity.Net Forums, you will be surprised to notice the Orthodox Church and Monophysite Church have yet to enter full communion. You may want to communicate directly via email with a poster “Isa Al Misry” who is an Alexandrian Orthodox Christian on why he renounced his Monophysite faith for Alexandrian Orthodox Church (Chalcedonian Orthodoxy).

The Coptic Orthodox Church has always affirmed the Cyrillian Christology and much more can be read on this in the ecumenical reports on this subject.

Yes, the Coptic Orthodox Church, which is led by His All Holiness Pope Theodoros II certainly affirms Cyrillian Christology as advocated by the Council of Chalcedon 451 AD, which decreed Mar Kirill as a Nestorian and lifted the anathemas placed on Mar Theodoret of Cyrrhus and Mar Ibas of Edessa by the Robber Council of Ephesus 449 AD. There is another Church calling itself Coptic Orthodox but we refer it as the Coptic Monophysite Church as its leader Shenouda III traces his apostolic line from Dioscoros, the man who ordered the murder of Flavian for Nestorianism at the Robber Council of Ephesus 449 AD, a kangaroo court.

“Miaphysite” is the term they apply to themselves while condemning “monophysism.” And where and when did this Pope persecute Coptic Catholics???

Actually, Coptic Monophysite Pope Dioscoros and his successors accuse Coptic Catholics and also Coptic Orthodox Chalcedonians of “Nestorianism”. This is slander as Mar Nestorios is proven to be Orthodox by the Council of Chalcedon 451 A.D. which reversed the heresies of the Council of Ephesus 431 AD and Robber Council of Ephesus 449 AD.

Mar Cyril of Alexandria soon renounced his Monophysite heresy after realising Monophysitism is the same as Apollinarianism, which was condemned by the Holy Council of Constantinople called by Theodosius the Great. Mar Cyril embraced “Nestorianism”, the faith of Mar Theodoros of Mopsuestia, according to Mar Ibas letter. Even today, in various Monophysite Monasteries in Egypt they accuse Mar Cyril of “Nestorianism”.

 

[Credo_ergo_sum]

Yes, the Coptic Orthodox Church, which is led by His All Holiness Pope Theodoros II certainly affirms Cyrillian Christology as advocated by the Council of Chalcedon 451 AD, which decreed Mar Kirill as a Nestorian and lifted the anathemas placed on Mar Theodoret of Cyrrhus and Mar Ibas of Edessa by the Robber Council of Ephesus 449 AD. There is another Church calling itself Coptic Orthodox but we refer it as the Coptic Monophysite Church as its leader Shenouda III traces his apostolic line from Dioscoros, the man who ordered the murder of Flavian for Nestorianism at the Robber Council of Ephesus 449 AD, a kangaroo court.

Actually, Coptic Monophysite Pope Dioscoros and his successors accuse Coptic Catholics and also Coptic Orthodox Chalcedonians of “Nestorianism”. This is slander as Mar Nestorios is proven to be Orthodox by the Council of Chalcedon 451 A.D. which reversed the heresies of the Council of Ephesus 431 AD and Robber Council of Ephesus 449 AD…

In how many persons does Christ exist? One or two?

Mar Cyril of Alexandria soon renounced his Monophysite heresy after realising Monophysitism is the same as Apollinarianism, which was condemned by the Holy Council of Constantinople called by Theodosius the Great. Mar Cyril embraced “Nestorianism”, the faith of Mar Theodoros of Mopsuestia, according to Mar Ibas letter. Even today, in various Monophysite Monasteries in Egypt they accuse Mar Cyril of “Nestorianism”.

Did you know the CC accepts the 5th Ecumenical Council which condemned Theodoros of Mopsuestia and the Letter of Ibas to Maris the Persian? Did you know that anyone who defends them is anathematised by the 5th Ecumenical Council?

Even today, in various Monophysite Monasteries in Egypt they accuse Mar Cyril of “Nestorianism”.

Source?

This is slander as Mar Nestorios is proven to be Orthodox by the Council of Chalcedon 451 A.D. which reversed the heresies of the Council of Ephesus 431 AD and Robber Council of Ephesus 449 AD…

Source?

This is slander as Mar Nestorios is proven to be Orthodox by the Council of Chalcedon 451 A.D. which reversed the heresies of the Council of Ephesus 431 AD and Robber Council of Ephesus 449 AD…

Oh boy!

here is another Church calling itself Coptic Orthodox but we refer it as the Coptic Monophysite Church as its leader Shenouda III traces his apostolic line from Dioscoros, the man who ordered the murder of Flavian for Nestorianism at the Robber Council of Ephesus 449 AD, a kangaroo court.

So does Theodoros II.