Ripple effect of Abortion on society

[TamM]

**

These projections are not statistics. They are provided for dramatic effect. They do not offer any analytical data with regard to the impact of abortion on the U.S. economy. As they fan the flames of sadness, they also preach to the choir. They offer no solution to the dilemma of abortion.

And the beat goes on . . .

capt

**

I think those were fair enough statistics. Statistics, being based on averages, are just that - averages. If you take a look a 2 million people and say 10% become teachers (for example) its’ fair to say that perhaps 10% of the next 2 million people you survey might also be teachers. If you’ve murdered 4 million people, that’s not a statistic, it’s a fact, from which other numbers (statistics, which again are just averages) can be deducted.

**Tietjen,

The article you gave the link to, if I’m not mistaken, was making an attempt to draw attention to the impact abortion has had on the U.S. economy since Roe v Wade. Roe was passed in 1973. Consider, then, that if these individuals were born and raised instead of aborted, they would have had little impact on the economy until they had reached the age of emancipation; i.e., they could hold jobs, buy cars, have children of their own, etc. This is the reason I found the claims deceitful and inflammatory, as the number of jobs that could** have been filled, the number of cars that could have been bought, the number of children that could have been brought into the world by these people were statistically insignificant until such time as they were actually working, buying and procreating.

I don’t know if you’ve had children. Mine definitely define my spending habits and make sure I hold down a full time job to support them with (thus creating drive in the economy, since I buy the things my kids need).

It is an ugly argument that the number of abortions performed on women in this country have allowed women to enter or remain in the workforce, thereby creating a positive impact on the economy through purchasing power alone; or that it may have eased stress in overcrowded classrooms, affording more individualized attention between teachers and students. For every negative impact argument there will be an equal, positive rejoinder. This does not interest me.

Women can work and be mothers. They could even work as teachers, and relieve that classroom stress! But why bring it up if it doesn’t interest you?

I do not “burry” my head in the sand. My eyes are wide open to the complexities and sorrowfulness of abortion and have been for almost four decades. It is a grievous experience, and yet I will never, ever put myself in a position to deny any woman the right to decide her own fate in the matter of an unexpected pregnancy. That is a personal decision for her to make without interference or influence unless she seeks it.

She chooses her fate when she has sex. If she is raped the morning after pill is readily available in most of North America, if not all of it. No excuse. Maybe when you have no pension and no health care you’ll see it differently.

 

[captbackfire]

**Statistics are facts, data of a numerical kind, which are assembled, classified and tabulated so as to present significant information about a given subject. Statisticians are scientists, not rabble rousers. The numbers are specific and based on facts and not emotions. So a “fair enough statistic” is really no statistic at all.

I raised a daughter from birth to adulthood by myself. I have lived below the poverty level for forty years. There have been many times when neither of us had what we needed. We survived.**

I have brought up particular points because if they were not addressed I would have been chastised for it. I say that certain aspects of the abortion argument are of little or no interest to me because the argument itself will never be resolved. And yet more people seem to want to argue about the im/morality of abortion than they want to develop practical solutions at a grass roots level to diminish the need for abortion across all economic strata.

"She chooses her fate when she has sex. If she is raped the morning after pill is readily available in most of North America, if not all of it. No excuse. Maybe when you have no pension and no health care you’ll see it differently."

**a) My understanding is that the bishops could never clearly dictate the Church’s ruling on the morning after pill. And there are numerous posts throughout many threads on this forum which argue that taking the morning after pill is just another immoral act and it should not be available anywhere to any woman.

b) I have no pension.

c) I have no health care.

d) Your point?

capt**

 

[TamM]

well, those 40 million missing kids? If they were contributing to your economy, you might have that pension, might have some health care. I did forget that Americans don’t have universal health care like we do here in Canada, so I apologize for assuming you do and I’m sorry if that offended you.

I too know what it’s like to struggle. Been there as both the child and the parent. It takes two people to make a baby, and when one is left as a single parent for whatever reason it’s very difficult. I’ve been advocating for better social support since I was 15 or 16 years old.

I may be wrong but I understand that in cases of incest or rape contraceptives are allowed by the church but not pills that would induce an abortion of an already conceived fetus, in which case, painful as it is, there is still the choice of adoption. I read that in Catholicism for Dummies. I"m currently reading the Catechism and if I learn more on it I’ll let you know.

I don’t want to argue about abortion, I just feel strongly about it and can’t always keep my fingers off the keyboard. I used to believe in the pro-choice movement, but I literally just fell of the fence onto the pro life side and landed with a real hard thud. It was an image of an aborted fetus that finally pushed me off the fence as I was questioning all of my beliefs, and I’ve done enough research on it now (and will being doing lots more) that I’ll never sit back up there, calling myself a pro-choicer, ever again.

 

[elts1956]

About 8 months ago I caught the tail end of a monologue on EWTN Radio. I do not know the name of the female host of the program but she was speaking on a report which outlined what society has lost do to abortion. For example, (I’m making up the numbers here because I do not remember what they were…

Since abortion has become legal and with the abortion rate being 1.3 million abortions annually since that time, we have:
9000 less doctors to treat us when we become ill
3000 less priests within the Church
etc…
etc…
etc…

The host of the show was reading this information from a source that is unknown to me (because I didn’t catch the first part of the monologue). I was HOPING that perhaps someone here might know where I can find these numbers. I have scoured the internet and the only things I have found are the effects of Abortion on the mother, father, economy, etc. etc. Nothing however, that depicts the human resources lost due to abortion specifically. When over a million babies are killed a year, there has got to be a breakdown somewhere of what those millions upon millions of actual people would have contributed to society had they been allowed to be born based on the same number of babies who were in fact born. Anybody?

Write, or call ETWN radio???

 

[Tietjen]

I am interested to know what, exactly, you are doing in addition to hoping and praying?

I stand on the lines outside abortion mills; I attempt to educate the ignorant on the subject of abortion; I give, economically and otherwise, to causes which uphold not only the rights of women, but of the rights of their “geographically challenged” babies. Because when it comes right down to it Capt. The only difference between a baby laying in a crib and a baby in her mother’s womb is LOCATION. If I don’t discriminate based on race, creed, gender, national origin, or religion… I will certainly not forget nor violate another human being’s right to life based on his/her place of residence, even if that means a mother must suffer through an inconvenience. Any more questions Capt.?

Oh, yeah - “It’s far easier to close your eyes, pretend that abortion is a good thing and recite tired maxims like ‘And the beat goes on…’” “Tired maxims”? Is this kind of sidebar analysis really necessary?

Actually, it serves it’s purpose. It calls to the attention of all who read your posts how nonchalantly you can dismiss the lives of the unborn. Rather than challenge an argument, it appears you would rather dismiss it from existence with, “And the beat goes on…” In other words you appear to be saying, “You cannot change anything why are you even trying?” My answer to you is, I have played a role in saving the unborn and will continue to do so until the day when Roe is overturned… and that day will arrive Capt. When it does come, what will your conscience tell you my friend? Will you simply change your opinion and start seeing the unborn as human beings (In other words, allow the state to dictate your moral beliefs) or will you take an active role in attempting to circumvent a pro-life government in order to quill your conscience of the 40 years you refused to see life?

 

[captbackfire]

I stand on the lines outside abortion mills; I attempt to educate the ignorant on the subject of abortion; I give, economically and otherwise, to causes which uphold not only the rights of women, but of the rights of their “geographically challenged” babies. Because when it comes right down to it Capt. The only difference between a baby laying in a crib and a baby in her mother’s womb is LOCATION. If I don’t discriminate based on race, creed, gender, national origin, or religion… I will certainly not forget nor violate another human being’s right to life based on his/her place of residence, even if that means a mother must suffer through an inconvenience. Any more questions Capt.?

Yes. If the facility also conducts gynecology services, do you call it an abortion and gynecology mill? Whom do you consider to be ignorant on the subject of abortion and why? And how do you counteract their presumptions?

Actually, it serves it’s purpose. It calls to the attention of all who read your posts how nonchalantly you can dismiss the lives of the unborn. **I do not nonchalantly dismiss anyone’s life. Additionally, I do not feel that it is within the scope of my authority to demand that life be preserved when I have had no hand in creating it. ** Rather than challenge an argument, it appears you would rather dismiss it from existence with, “And the beat goes on…” One can only challenge an argument to a point on CAF before one suffers the consequences by way of suspension or ban. If you choose to argue with me by way of private messaging I would consider responding; but, here again, the moderators have their hand in every communication here so spontaneous responses and true-life experiences are not likely to find their way onto this site. In other words you appear to be saying, “You cannot change anything why are you even trying?” **On the contrary. I am asking you what steps you are personally taking to effect changes in your world so that abortion causes less anquish. ** My answer to you is, I have played a role in saving the unborn and will continue to do so until the day when Roe is overturned… and that day will arrive Capt. So am I to understand that your struggle with abortion is limited only to legal abortion? ** When it does come, what will your conscience tell you my friend? ** You presume too much: there is no friendship here. Will you simply change your opinion and start seeing the unborn as human beings (In other words, allow the state to dictate your moral beliefs) or will you take an active role in attempting to circumvent a pro-life government in order to quill your conscience of the 40 years you refused to see life? **Quill? Please explain. And, to answer your questions, I will take an active role on neither position, as I feel it is the right of every individual woman to choose what to do about unplanned or unwanted pregnancy. I am neither adamantly pro-life nor pro-abortion. I am pro-choice, and that choice is not mine to make any longer, as I am a dozen years beyond menopause. Of course, we each have room to modify our opinions. Yours are formed by the Catholic Church and, as such, are unlikely to change. Mine are not formed by the Catholic Church and are always in flux, influenced by experience and study. So, at the risk of using a tired maxim, I will share my observation that comparing our respective belief systems is akin to comparing apples and oranges.

capt **

 

[Tietjen]

captbackfire:

If the facility also conducts gynecology services, do you call it an abortion and gynecology mill?

Allow me to answer that in a less than traditional manner. There is a babysitter in the neighborhood that has sat for several children and is known by the parents of these children as being an excellent sitter. Yet one day, this sitter betrays the confidence of her position by leaving the children in her charge unattended for several hours. The parents of the children come home and find that the children are not being cared for. They have not eaten, they have dirty diapers, they’ve been left in their cribs to cry, etc. Should that sitter still be considered a fit babysitter based on the other sitting positions that she has done? I suggest to you that despite the “good” that the sitter has done in the past, or may do in future situations, it does not wipe away the betrayal of the present. So, to summarize, yes… I would indeed still consider an abortion mill that also does gynecological treatments and exams a “mill,” and thus wrong.

captbackfire:

Whom do you consider to be ignorant on the subject of abortion and why?

Those that support the act; those that are considering performing the act; and of course those that take part in the act. As to the why, because I believe that if the parents of the unborn child, the medical personnel who perform the action, and those who might encourage the abortion, actually understood that what they were doing was murder, they might reconsider their part in it. Call me naive but I just cannot wrap my arms around the idea that a mother, father, relative, or doctor would want anything to do with murdering an innocent child for the sake of convenience.

captbackfire:

And how do you counteract their presumptions?

I hope that I can possibly give them something to consider before they act out of fear, guilt, shame, greed, or convenience. If they could open their eyes and see the life that they are about to take as a fellow human being, then perhaps they would step back from the evil in which they are about to partake.

captbackfire:

I do not nonchalantly dismiss anyone’s life. Additionally, I do not feel that it is within the scope of my authority to demand that life be preserved when I have had no hand in creating it.

So, based on what you have just stated, it is safe to assume that if you witnessed a man beating on a woman, you would not feel obligated to intercede? You wouldn’t call for help, you wouldn’t attempt to stop the beating because it is outside your “scope of authority” to interfere with things that you had no hand in creating? Am I understanding you correctly? Your authority TO interfere comes from God. It’s based on the humanity that God has infused into your soul.

captbackfire:

On the contrary. I am asking you what steps you are personally taking to effect changes in your world so that abortion causes less anquish.

First, you and I live in the same world. It’s not “my world” vs. “your world.” Second, the ONLY changes that would cause less anguish when dealing with abortion is to stop it from happening.

captbackfire:

So am I to understand that your struggle with abortion is limited only to legal abortion?

Of course not. However, if the opportunity for women to have abortions were less available, perhaps they would be open to other alternatives rather than infanticide. The war against abortion isn’t being fought on just one front; rather, it is a multi-front war and must be fought not only in the courts and legislature but in the minds and souls of those who might seek or assist in seeking out the evil. To murder an adult is legally a crime, yet we see it happening not just in our cities but our towns, our rural areas, our nice neighborhoods with their picket fences. When Roe is overturned, it will be a great victory, but the battle will continue.

captbackfire:

You presume too much: there is no friendship here.

Why is that? Because I won’t agree with you? Because I won’t join you in being silent on the subject of murder? Because I dare to speak for those who have no voice, no say in their fate, no hope for a protector? If you don’t feel the friendship when someone speaks the truth, simply because you’ve either been hurt in the past, or because you simply hate the truth, then I don’t know what I can say to you to get you to understand. I do feel sorry for you though and I wish that there were a way to get past the wall you have placed in front of you to make you see that this is not simply about the mother… that there is another living human being involved that deserves the right to experience life outside the womb and not be ripped from it’s mother and thrown out like some piece of trash.

 

[captbackfire]

**Tietjen,

What does your story have to do with the question I asked? Maybe a direct reply would be more effective.

I have to say, there is more to the ignorance question that that which you have addressed. On this forum I have read post after post after post by well-meaning people who haven’t the slightest idea what an abortion entails. There is a wide range of latitude here with regard to when or whether abortion should be tolerated, under what circumstances, etc. I don’t need to argue those points because they are all a matter of opinion. Women who have abortions in licensed facilities in the U.S. are informed as to the nature of the procedure. They are often ultrasounded and sometimes ask the sex of the fetus. They are repeatedly asked if this is their choice or the decision of a parent, boyfriend or husband. If they are not ready they are sent home. They may think they are ready but back out before the procedure begins.

The doctors are acting according to their own individual consciences, not according to Roman Catholic teachings. You are certainly within your rights to find their actions despicable, but this in not enough to effect a change in the law. They are fully aware of what they are doing and they do it maybe 25-30 times a day. To my mind, it is doubtful that any doctor performing abortions views what he is doing as “murder”, nor does anyone who facilitates abortion or educates about abortion. They simply do not view a fetus as a “child”. I will not go toe to toe with you on this point - it is abundantly clear that you insist that a fetus is a child, and I am simply stating what I know to be true for those involved in, facilitating, or performing abortions. Most do not agree with you.**
" I ] hope that I can possibly give them something to consider before they act out of fear, guilt, shame, greed, or convenience," **you say. ** **My question, again, is what? What can you give? A label that says “You are a murderer!”? Disdain for their desperation? A big, red patch to wear on their sleeves that says, “Evil person!”? How is this helpful? Is the criticism and judgment productive?

I don’t make moral decisions for other people. **If I am asked for help ****I will do what I can to alleviate fear, pain, danger. If my authority to “interfere” comes from God, it comes with instructions not to abuse the authority. Just because I disagree with an action an individual is about to take does not mean I must get up in her face and superimpose my personal values on her. In my view, it is between her and God. There’s no second chair there for me to sit in and enforce my own beliefs on her. I’m sure there’s plenty of room in Purgatory for all of us who stood at the crossroads and chose abortion. Your passive rage at the dilemma guarantees you a place on our bench.

To counter: what steps are you taking in this world to effect a change so that abortion causes less anguish? In other words, what are you doing to stop abortion from happening?

No, there is no friendship here, not because we disagree, not because you are hurling your truth at me, not because you dare to do anything. I choose my friends. They do not choose me. We have nothing in common; hence, no basis for friendship.

capt

 

[Tietjen]

**

What does your story have to do with the question I asked? Maybe a direct reply would be more effective.

**
My reply was an attempt to show you a comparison between “good services” rendered and the effect of “bad services” rendered. I apologize if you did not pick up on that. So to answer your question directly (again), yes, I still consider such a facility a “mill” despite the fact that they may actually offer something good. The fact that they ALSO, offer murder as a means to escape inconvenience negates the “good services” they may offer.

**

I have to say, there is more to the ignorance question that that which you have addressed. On this forum I have read post after post after post by well-meaning people who haven’t the slightest idea what an abortion entails. There is a wide range of latitude here with regard to when or whether abortion should be tolerated, under what circumstances, etc. I don’t need to argue those points because they are all a matter of opinion.

**
Therein lies a major impasse. Where you see the extermination of life as an option which “should be tolerated” depending on the “circumstances” pro-lifers refuse to buy into this evil as an option.

**

Women who have abortions in licensed facilities in the U.S. are informed as to the nature of the procedure. They are often ultrasounded and sometimes ask the sex of the fetus. They are repeatedly asked if this is their choice or the decision of a parent, boyfriend or husband. If they are not ready they are sent home. They may think they are ready but back out before the procedure begins.

**
If that were the case, it is the exception and not the rule. Generally, these clinics are NOT looking for a reason to deny an abortion. It’s their “bread & butter” and to do so would be cutting their own financial purse strings. If what you speak were actually true, there wouldn’t be so many objections by Planned Parenthood, the ACLU, etc concerning pro-lifers distributing information concerning the reality of abortion. Yet, one only has to pay attention in order to see these groups fighting tooth and nail to keep pro-lifers from speaking the truth and possibly effecting a change which might jeopardize the financial gain of these abortion mills.

**

The doctors are acting according to their own individual consciences, not according to Roman Catholic teachings. You are certainly within your rights to find their actions despicable, but this in not enough to effect a change in the law. They are fully aware of what they are doing and they do it maybe 25-30 times a day. To my mind, it is doubtful that any doctor performing abortions views what he is doing as “murder”, nor does anyone who facilitates abortion or educates about abortion. They simply do not view a fetus as a “child”. I will not go toe to toe with you on this point - it is abundantly clear that you insist that a fetus is a child, and I am simply stating what I know to be true for those involved in, facilitating, or performing abortions. Most do not agree with you.

**
Hmmm… I wonder then, what or how these fine doctors of medicine would define “life” and perhaps if the scientific community as a whole might come to some sort of agreement as to when life actually begins. Ahhh, but to do so, might just mean that millions upon millions of innocent children were murdered all in the names of convenience and greed. Nah, this is exactly why the medical community will not take the time to say definitively when life begins and what constitutes a living being. It’s better to go on making the billions of dollars a year and avoid the obvious rather than define it.

**

" I ] hope that I can possibly give them something to consider before they act out of fear, guilt, shame, greed, or convenience," you say.

My question, again, is what? What can you give? A label that says “You are a murderer!”? Disdain for their desperation? A big, red patch to wear on their sleeves that says, “Evil person!”? How is this helpful? Is the criticism and judgment productive?**
Follow your own questions more carefully and do me the same service. You asked, “And how do you counteract their presumptions?” I responded, “I hope that I can possibly give them something to consider before they act out of fear, guilt, shame, greed, or convenience. If they could open their eyes and see the life that they are about to take as a fellow human being, then perhaps they would step back from the evil in which they are about to partake.” No where did I say that I was labeling them, showing them disdain, sewing a “big red patch” on their sleeves. Those were your lies (I mean words) not mine. The sad thing about this whole debate is that you’re not even slightly good at it. Throughout you have refused to answer my questions, you choose maxims over intelligent dialogue to support your view, and now you will even attempt to quote out of context in order to facilitate a lie.

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[Tietjen]

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**

I don’t make moral decisions for other people. **If I am asked for help **

**I will do what I can to alleviate fear, pain, danger. If my authority to “interfere” comes from God, it comes with instructions not to abuse the authority. Just because I disagree with an action an individual is about to take does not mean I must get up in her face and superimpose my personal values on her. In my view, it is between her and God. There’s no second chair there for me to sit in and enforce my own beliefs on her.
In other words, if God Himself does not come down from Heaven, invite her to share a cup of coffee while discussing the situation, then it must be okay with Him. What a nice way to attempt to shift responsibility off of the shoulders of society and man. Perhaps then you’d be okay with a society that saw retirees who fail to adequately contribute to the overall needs of it’s members as being a waste of resources (an inconvenience) and might be equally unconcerned if that same society effected laws enforcing euthanasia, by consent or otherwise.

**

I’m sure there’s plenty of room in Purgatory for all of us who stood at the crossroads and chose abortion. Your passive rage at the dilemma guarantees you a place on our bench.

**
Madam, I am very sure that I have earned a spot on that bench, but not for fighting the good fight against abortion. You have been advised of what abortion is and as God will judge me, so shall He judge you. I do hope that I will see you in Purgatory and eventually in Heaven. As for my “passive rage” what’s passive about it. Certainly you are not suggesting that I have simply become angry and bottled up that anger. The opposite is in fact the case, I speak out against abortion and will continue to do so.

**

To counter: what steps are you taking in this world

** to effect a change so that abortion causes less anguish? In other words, what are you doing to stop abortion from happening?
I have already answered this question, if you have forgotten my answer, please scroll up a few messages.

**

No, there is no friendship here, not because we disagree, not because you are hurling your truth at me, not because you dare to do anything

**. I choose my friends. They do not choose me. We have nothing in common; hence, no basis for friendship.
Fair enough. I’m sure that neither of us will lay awake at night worrying about unrealized friendships.

I thank you for the debate and hope that you too will leave it having gained something positive. For my part, this discussion has allowed me to demonstrate to all readers the true ripple effect abortion has played in society… that being an apathetic attitude toward life. You may have the last word and God bless.

 

[LeroyCRHP]

THis article was great and right on. From 1973 the first million of not aborted babies would be 35, in the prime of earnings and growing their own family.

I really feel sad for people that do not realize the value and beauty of each baby, born or aborted.

LOOK WHAT I FOUND!

nrlc.org/Factsheets/FS04_MissingPersons.pdf

This discusses the ecomonic impact of abortion and the future of Social Security and Medicare due to abortion. It doesn’t list the specific percentage of jobs not filled because of those lost to abortion, but it is still very interesting and helpful with the pro-life cause.

 

[captbackfire]

**Tietjen,

To quote “out of context” is the only practical way to address your thrust and parry, as to continue to quote you verbatim requires too much room and attention at this point. I will try to be direct and concise and not manipulate your words or ideas in the process of responding to your posts.**

My impression is that you believe abortion is performed primarily for the convenience of the mother or the enrichment (“greed”) of the practitioner. There are many other reasons abortions are performed, including fear of retribution from the “father”, the discovery of genetic anomalies, ectopic pregnancies and other medical concerns.

If you do not condone abortion, I certainly would be the last person to call you a buttoned-up, religious zealot. I support choice, and in doing so I support your right to choose your response to the abortion dilemma and any actions which you take to rescind its availability.

You write, *"Generally, these clinics are NOT looking for a reason to deny an abortion." * **Yes, this is true - abortion is a service with a significant demand and can be lucrative for the practitioners. However, you are mistaken when you deny that women are not informed as to the nature of the procedure and the legal and medical considerations surrounding it. Please refer to Guttmacher’s informational tables on each individual state’s requirements regarding verbal and written materials and waiting periods: **

guttmacher.org/statecenter/spibs/spib_MWPA.pdf

In many states a woman who calls a clinic to make an appointment must listen to a state-mandated recording, explaining abortion, its risks and what is expected of the patient no more than 24 hours before a scheduled abortion. Some clinics require two separate visits before a procedure will be done. Others require the patient to view a videotape outlining the procedure and its possible effects.

It is unreasonable to expect that the “scientific community as a whole” come to a consensus as to when life begins. If every scientist were a practicing Roman Catholic, or even had one toe in the pool of Christianity, your problem here would likely be solved. Alas, you have the entire spectrum of humanity to deal with, including every conceivable personal interpretation of the question, and you will never enjoy a meeting of all minds.

This from your recent post: "You asked, ‘And how do you counteract their presumptions?’ I responded, ‘I hope that I can possibly give them something to consider before they act out of fear, guilt, shame, greed, or convenience. If they could open their eyes and see the life that they are about to take as a fellow human being, then perhaps they would step back from the evil in which they are about to partake.’ ** Good intentions, yes; but this neither answers my question nor illuminates any *concrete effort ***you put forth to bring an end to abortion. Hope is good but it needs to be followed by action. You “hope to give them something . . .” What do you hope to give them? How can you help them? What action are you taking, aside from judging these women, their doctors, and others involved? (Curiously enough, I don’t recall reading anything in your posts that denigrates the fathers who have played a significant part in the problem.)

"No where did I say that I was labeling them, showing them disdain, sewing a “big red patch” on their sleeves," you claim. **“Those were your lies (I mean words) not mine.” ** *When you decry someone’s behavior as evil, you are labeling that individual as evil. *** When you make a flip remark such as, “Those were your lies (I mean words) not mine,” do you not see that you are calling me a liar? Your choice of words for every woman who has had an abortion is “murderer”. Do you not think that perhaps “sinner” might be more along the lines of “Judge not, lest ye be judged”? You do make character judgments, you do make value judgments, you do label people. This is not out of context: * I am using your words verbatim. *

Let me ask you this: what questions of yours have I failed to answer? I would be happy to explain my views to you, but I honestly don’t think you’re interested in what I have to say. I have attempted to keep everything above-board and direct here. Of you I cannot say the same.

capt

 

[captbackfire]

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In other words, if God Himself does not come down from Heaven, invite her to share a cup of coffee while discussing the situation, then it must be okay with Him. What a nice way to attempt to shift responsibility off of the shoulders of society and man. Perhaps then you’d be okay with a society that saw retirees who fail to adequately contribute to the overall needs of it’s members as being a waste of resources (an inconvenience) and might be equally unconcerned if that same society effected laws enforcing euthanasia, by consent or otherwise.

---

Madam, I am very sure that I have earned a spot on that bench, but not for fighting the good fight against abortion. You have been advised of what abortion is and as God will judge me, so shall He judge you. I do hope that I will see you in Purgatory and eventually in Heaven. As for my “passive rage” what’s passive about it. Certainly you are not suggesting that I have simply become angry and bottled up that anger. The opposite is in fact the case, I speak out against abortion and will continue to do so.

---

I have already answered this question, if you have forgotten my answer, please scroll up a few messages.

---

Fair enough. I’m sure that neither of us will lay awake at night worrying about unrealized friendships.

I thank you for the debate and hope that you too will leave it having gained something positive. For my part, this discussion has allowed me to demonstrate to all readers the true ripple effect abortion has played in society… that being an apathetic attitude toward life. You may have the last word and God bless.

**You know what “speaking out against abortion” is? Words. Nothing but words.

capt**

 

[wanner47]

**You know what “speaking out against abortion” is? Words. Nothing but words.

capt**

So is “speaking out in favor of abortion,” Marietta. It works both ways.

 

[hxcCatholic413]

There will still be children who are born, grow into adulthood, and run this country, regardless of how many are lost to abortion. Tomorrow will come no matter how sad we might be about the losses today.

And by the way, my own child is missing from my neighborhood, and I am pro-choice.

capt

have you seen any of these pictures before: 100abortionpictures.com/Aborted_Baby_Pictures_Abortion_Photos/

look at that site and tell me your still pro-choice

 

[hxcCatholic413]

Capt.
Your right God did give us free will. It is a choice to kill an innocent baby. But if someone chooses that, why should we allow them to do it legally? Whats the difference if I were to kill my one week old daughter. Going by abortion supporters arguments, the one week old is just as useless. Its ridiculous to think that abortion has no ripple effect. It numbs down society to accepting murder. There is no respect for life.

?

What really is strange is if you were to kill your 1 week baby or even your 1 day old baby you would probably get a LIFE Sentence in prison or possibly even the death penalty, but abortion is somehow legal?

 

[TamM]

have you seen any of these pictures before: 100abortionpictures.com/Aborted_Baby_Pictures_Abortion_Photos/

look at that site and tell me your still pro-choice

Hi hxc welcome to CAF. Thanks for the link to the pictures. As heartbreaking as they are I’m hoping that when I show them to my husband he’ll understand the passion I have for this issue. I was pro-choice until a picture like that popped into my life, and made me think, forcing me to research the issue and realize that this was a life I was talking about, not a blob-like group of developing cells like I’d been taught.
I don’t know how anyone can look at pictures like that and not realize a life, just like theirs, is now gone forever. A life that could have been adopted by people that love cherish it. A life that should at least had a fighting chance.

Having said that, capt, you ask what I’ve done to help. I’ve advocated relentlessly for over a decade for better social support, daycare, employment conditions, etc, for parents and still do. I’ve advocated for family life of some sort, traditional or single, to involve less struggling and more community effort and still do. I’ve studied social issues as extensively as I could, and have a degree in social sciences. I know parenthood is hard. I also know most abortions are matters of convenience not life or death, and that babies don’t deserve to die like that inside their mother’s womb.

 

[captbackfire]

**
I, capt, have not** spoken out “in favor of abortion.” I have spoken out in favor of allowing women and couples to decide without reproach what is best for them, their bodies, their lives within the scope of their own individual religious or spiritual beliefs. Sometimes this results in abortion. Sometimes it does not.

It is called choice.

Choice does not equal abortion.

capt

 

[captbackfire]

have you seen any of these pictures before: 100abortionpictures.com/Aborted_Baby_Pictures_Abortion_Photos/

look at that site and tell me your still pro-choice

**
I need not look at your photos to know the point you are making. I saw my own 13-week-old fetus in an aspiration jar. I fully comprehend what transpired. I was grateful to have a full range of legal options then and I believe women today should continue to have a full range of options when faced with an unexpected or unwanted pregnancy.

I do not endorse abortion. Choice allows women to consider their relationship, their faith, their economic, mental and emotional stability, and the health of the fetus, among other factors. I would hope that each woman consider these factors honestly as she decides what she will do, but many do not.

The problem is not abortion. It is ignorance, an exaggerated need to belong to something or someone, rape, peer pressure, and a host of other components that bring women to the last house on the block: abortion. Because 27% of abortions are experienced by Catholic women, what would you tell them about how to avoid this tragedy? Would you give them the little pamphlets in your basket? “Natural Family Planning” and “Abstinence”? I don’t consider these viable options for women today, and neither do many Catholic women.

What is your** answer to this dilemma?

capt

 

[captbackfire]

**Aaron409 responded to one of my posts as follows:

"Its ridiculous to think that abortion has no ripple effect."**

I have never claimed that abortion has no ripple effect on society, on families, on the individuals that must endure them. Please do not assign an idea to me that I do not embrace.

capt