Rising Protestant tide sweeps Catholic Brazil

[Tom317]

CARAPICUIBA, Brazil (Reuters) - For years, Ronaldo da Silva’s daily routine consisted of drinking himself into a stupor until he passed out on a sidewalk.

Now he spends his days praying and singing with hundreds of fellow Christians at the Universal Church of the Kingdom of God in Carapicuiba, a sprawling shantytown on the outskirts of Sao Paulo where Pentecostal congregations are found on just about every block.

“I’d probably be dead or in jail if it weren’t for this church,” said da Silva, a 38-year-old former Catholic who claims God cured him of epilepsy and helped him straighten out his life when he converted to Pentecostalism a decade ago.

reuters.com/article/inDepthNews/idUSN3023920920070503

 

[HollyDolly]

The church to stem this tide,must do more for it’s people there and elsewhere in mexico,Central and South America.
One wonders how good their catechical instruction was as a kid.
My parents both had gone with people of other faiths before they got married.But they never would have converted from the one true church to please this person or any future inlaws.
The Church is failing in these places because evangilizing isn’t being done.

 

[Dale_M]

One wonders how good their catechical instruction was as a kid.

I think the success of Fr. Marcelo Rossi shows that people want to feel God’s presence. Its not an intellectual thing so perhaps improved catechesis isn’t the answer.

The Church needs to be sure that it is meeting the needs of its people. So in addition to its well known material services to the poor, perhaps the Church would do well to start speaking their “language”, too. Find out what they envision themselves seeking and meet them there.

 

[Cradle]

I think the success of Fr. Marcelo Rossi shows that people want to feel God’s presence. Its not an intellectual thing so perhaps improved catechesis isn’t the answer.

The Church needs to be sure that it is meeting the needs of its people. So in addition to its well known material services to the poor, perhaps the Church would do well to start speaking their “language”, too. Find out what they envision themselves seeking and meet them there.

As someone from Latin America myself, I would say that this is what was actually done in Latin America and is precisely why we are dealing with a problem now. From a Philippino friend, I hear this “listening” is what was done in the Phillippines as well; we’ll see how that turns out.

The lack of catechesis (sp?) among Catholic Latin Americans is astounding, and I echo HollyDolly’s sentiments; every day I deal with Latin Americans who are heavy with Catholic culture (which is, of course, a good thing) but extremely lacking in the actual substance of the faith, of what it means to be Catholic. It is lunacy to be something without knowing what that is… it’s no wonder some people give up and look to something else. I figure their subconscious line of thinking might be “better to be something else than nothing”.

I have to tell you, the first time I actually received somewhat serious catechetical instruction (I went to a Catholic school back home, and I did receive some instruction, but it either wasn’t covered enough or I don’t remember it too well ) was here in Canada, and even that was very superficial…

 

[jimmy]

I think the success of Fr. Marcelo Rossi shows that people want to feel God’s presence. Its not an intellectual thing so perhaps improved catechesis isn’t the answer.

The Church needs to be sure that it is meeting the needs of its people. So in addition to its well known material services to the poor, perhaps the Church would do well to start speaking their “language”, too. Find out what they envision themselves seeking and meet them there.

The Church has continually warned against seeking for signs and feelings sent from God. Satan can imitate an angel of God and he will fool the person who is not aware.

 

[Truthstalker]

So it is better if the man is an epileptic drunk on a sidewalk, as long as he is Catholic (but totally uninformed and unformed in faith) than as a healed, Jesus-loving praise singer and prayer warrior who is living a holy life before God?

 

[lak611]

So it is better if the man is an epileptic drunk on a sidewalk, as long as he is Catholic (but totally uninformed and unformed in faith) than as a healed, Jesus-loving praise singer and prayer warrior who is living a holy life before God?

The problem is that the Catholic Church is not helping this man or people like him right now. The Catholic Church needs to do more outreach and evangelisation. Perhaps, we could have programs in our parishes to support Catholic missionaries to Brazil.

 

[jimmy]

So it is better if the man is an epileptic drunk on a sidewalk, as long as he is Catholic (but totally uninformed and unformed in faith) than as a healed, Jesus-loving praise singer and prayer warrior who is living a holy life before God?

No, of course not. I don’t think anyone would suggest that. But the problem is that the Catholic Church is not doing what it should in Latin America(like in many places). The answer is not for it to sacrifice its beliefs. It should be trying to teach people the Catholic spirituality rather than making every other spirituality its own. Essentially relativism.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Wrong parameters. If all that matters is life ‘on earth’, then certainly it is better to be ‘healed’ than hurt, better to be productive than nonproductive, better to be living any sort of ‘religion’ (or any sort of job for that matter) so long as one is ‘involved’ as opposed to being uninvolved.

But if what matters is one’s eternal soul, then the truth of one’s religion has more meaning than one sees ‘on earth’. On earth, one religion can look ‘as good’ as another. Why bother worrying if Jack is Catholic or Baptist? Buddist or Wiccan? Hindu or atheist? Surely so long as Jack is ‘living a good life’, Jack will be just fine. (It’s called indifferentism. It isn’t the ‘faith itself’ that matters, it is ‘how we live it’). This is great for things like sporting events, but hellish (in its deepest sense) for religion.

Yes, Jack can live ‘the good life’ as, say, a Hindu. . .Hindus have some ‘truth’ (since there is an absolute truth and that is reflected, partially and fragmentedly, in Hindu religion). But suppose Jack was originally a Baptist. Baptists, as Christians, have (in their FAITH, not in any given individual, please note the difference) MORE truth in that they have the full truth of Christ as Savior. Jack had that ‘greater degree of truth’, and fully and freely rejected it for the ‘lesser’ truth of Hinduism. It will be harder for Jack to ‘live the good life’ than it would have been had he continued Baptist and lived the good life as the ‘best’ Baptist he could be (which is what we should all be working for, not to be ‘good enough’ but to be the best we can be for God).

This is the reason that a man who had the fullness of truth as a Catholic, and rejected it for a ‘lesser truth’ is going to find it harder to gain eternal life. He may have a much ‘easier’ life on earth, he may ‘feel’ happier. . .but that has no effect on whether the religious belief he professes is fully true, partially true, or hardly true, does it?

So it matters that people who ‘were’ Catholics reject fullness and choose something less. Even if they think it’s ‘the same’, even if they think it’s ‘better’. It isn’t, and it never will be, and it will be harder for them to achieve salvation.

Oh, some will, though it will be hard. And some Catholics despite all their lip service will turn out to be bound for ‘below’, despite having the great advantage of knowing the true faith, because in their hearts they’ll reject it. It may be ‘harder’ for them to reject but if they’re bound and determined, they will.

But even if 99% of Catholics ‘rejected’ the faith, that still would not make the faith any less than the true, 100% faith.

As Pope Benedict XVI says, “Truth is not judged by majority vote.”

 

[Truthstalker]

Maybe I didn’t express it well.

Jack, Catholic by birth, untaught, knows and follows 0.01% of Catholicism.

Jack, “saved”, healed, praying, knows and follows 55% of Catholic faith.

Improvement? Yep.

Was he ever anything but Catholic in name only? No.

Is he more Catholic now than he ever was? Yes. Even if he calls himself an ex-Catholic.

 

[JW10631]

The Church in Brazil has been caught with its “pants down” (figuratively, not literally).

Fundie sects have long targeted Lain Americans - in Latin America and the United States - for conversion. Lacking resources and in many places being enamored with Liberation Theology, the Church in Latin America does a poor job of catechizing, teaching and evangelizing.

The question - what are *you and I *doing to help? Upcoming is a special collection for the Church in Latin America - May 20th, to be exact. I´m putting something extra in for that collection.

Fundamentalism is feel-good and shallow and in the long term will be a spent force, but for now it is a threat to the Church.

 

[Ahimsa]

More catechizing won’t cut it, as someone else already posted, because you’re still remaining at the level of the intellect. That’s part of the reason the Pentecostals and Charismatics are growing: they know how to change people’s lives, bodies, and hearts, as well as minds. Healings and exorcisms really make sense – and are powerful – in a culture (South America, Africa, e.g.) where people really believe in the supernatural. The Catholic Church still has potential regarding its own vibrant power of healing and exorcism, so the game is by no means over on this issue.

The other reason for Pentecostal and Charismatic attractiveness has to do with the link between Protestantism and capitalism. Latin Americans want TVs, cars, computers – all the things Gringos already have, and Pentecostals/Charismatics are not afraid to say that God wants you to have those things too. This may be an area where the Church is much more vulnerable, compared to the Pentecostals.

 

[Joe_Kelley]

The great shame is that in 500+ years the Catholic Church has done so little to evangelize South and Central America.

Somehow the Church does much better when persecuted than when she has a clear field.

 

[Truthstalker]

Fundie sects …

Fundamentalism is feel-good and shallow and in the long term will be a spent force, but for now it is a threat to the Church.

How dismissive.

Not all Protestants are fundamentalist. Your typical Evangelical may well hold more closely to the Catholic Catechism than many priests do. There are actually only a few sections in the Catechism that should give Evangelicals any heartburn - and of those, there is a reduced number after study and consideration.

If you hew gold out of rock, it is still gold.

If salt loses its saltiness, it is good for nothing.

 

[JW10631]

How dismissive.

Not all Protestants are fundamentalist. Your typical Evangelical may well hold more closely to the Catholic Catechism than many priests do. There are actually only a few sections in the Catechism that should give Evangelicals any heartburn - and of those, there is a reduced number after study and consideration.

If you hew gold out of rock, it is still gold.

If salt loses its saltiness, it is good for nothing.

Dismissive? I think not.
I consider Pentacostals, Evangelicals and Fundamentalists to be cut from the same cloth. Slick and feel good but basically empty with a rudimentary understanding - if that - of Scripture, while claiming to be *sola scriptura. *

 

[Truthstalker]

Dismissive? I think not.
I consider Pentacostals, Evangelicals and Fundamentalists to be cut from the same cloth. Slick and feel good but basically empty with a rudimentary understanding - if that - of Scripture, while claiming to be *sola scriptura. *

Thank you for reinforcing my point.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Truthstalker, perhaps we’re advocating the same thing only with a slightly different emphasis.

Now, if your point is that, no matter what a person’s faith is, he ‘may’ live a life for God, I totally agree.

Where we may differ comes in two distinct ‘sub’ categories.

1. In order not to be ‘indifferent’, one must realize that not all religions are ‘interchangeable’. So it does matter that one religion is ‘full of truth’, and all others have truth to varying degrees, some more, some less. Obviously, all other things being equal, a person in the ‘fullness of truth’ is going to find it easier–more conducive–have the most ‘help’–to live best for God. And he or she is going to be following most clearly the truth that God Himself established.
   Picture giving out a test on quadratic equations to three people; one of whom has used a college text on mathematics to study, one an 8th grade text, and one a 2nd grade text.
   It is ‘possible’ for the person with the 2nd grade text to achieve a passing grade, for perhaps he may be more mathematically inclined. It is ‘possible’ for the one using the college text to fail. But isn’t it (all things being equal) more likely that, the greater one’s knowledge of a subject, the better he will do when questioned/tested?
2. Having established that religions are not ‘indifferent’, we come to the crux of a possible disagreement. I understand that from your focus, you say it is ‘better’ that Pablo, or John, or Mary, rather than being a ‘bad’ Catholic, should be a ‘good’ Protestant because ‘at least he/she is trying to follow God’.

But I disagree. Back to the textbook analogy, you would not say that it was better that the student with the college textbook throw it away and use the 8th grade or 2nd grade texts simply because those he had ‘mastered’, or ‘prefered’ to use, would you?

For you seem to tend toward relativism here. If the person ‘does not find Catholicism works for him/her’, you seem to think that any religion which he ‘likes’ will work, regardless of whether the religion is true, or what degree of truth it possesses.

IOW, the mere fact of him professing ‘a religion’ seems to be ‘enough’ for you. And I do not believe it is. It matters, not only that we profess faith, but that the faith itself be true, and, if true, that it possess the fullness of truth.

This is one of the tragedies that has come from the great falling away of the 16th century onward–the fragmenting of Christianity such that there are so many factions claiming ‘truth’, and that so many good and well intentioned people think that ‘any’ of these factions is fine, provided its adherents ‘like it’–completely bypassing the entire question of its inherent truth or its lacks thereof.

 

[stbruno]

I hope the presence of the Pope coming to Brazil May 9-14th will spark a ray of hope and evangelization to the good people of Brazil. Anything is possible with God.

Here is his schedule. vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/travels/2007/documents/trav_ben-xvi_brasile-program_20070509_en.html

 

[Truthstalker]

One can actually learn more about Catholicism - in some cases - outside the Catholic Church than within it. For example, you may take RCIA from someone who believes in liberation theology, under the guidance of a priest who deemphasizes spirituality for resistance to corporate greed, in a parish sympathetic to homosexual rights. You may never learn of the resurrection, which is preached over at First Baptist. Core Catholic doctrine may be denied or ignored, as documented on posts on CAF, in favor of theological novelty by those who disregard both the authority of Scripture and of the Church. Meanwhile, down the street, First Baptist may vociferously preach, teach and model a Biblical lifestyle wholly in accord with Catholicism, while departing on some issues. The priest in this case might reject almost all of Catholicism, while the Baptist pastor in this situation might, oddly, be far more Catholic in his theology and teaching than the priest. The question is who is closer to truth when you look past the label.

 

[Ahimsa]

Some observers believe the growth of the charismatic movement is helping to stem the Pentecostal tide, because it offers most of what Latin Americans find attractive about Pentecostalism within the Catholic church. Others, however, worry that it too closely mimics the Pentecostals, especially when it comes to the “prosperity gospel” and an emphasis on immediate emotional gratification.
In that light, two challenges await Benedict XVI.

First, can this notoriously cerebral pope, famous for generating more light than heat, wear enough of his heart on his sleeve to win over audiences steeped in the charismatic style?

Second, can Benedict affirm the enthusiasm and deep faith of the charismatics, while at the same time ensuring that they remain rooted in the broader pastoral concerns of the church?