Robert Spencer on Magdi Allam's story

[arabic_catholic]

The highest-profile convert to Roman Catholicism in recent memory, Magdi Cristiano Allam, has left the Catholic Church.

Allam, who was baptized in the Vatican by Pope Benedict XVI on Easter day 2008, explained that what “more than any other factor drove me away from the Church” was the “legitimization of Islam as the true religion of Allah as the one true God, Muhammad as a true prophet, the Koran as a sacred text, and of mosques as places of worship.”

Allam declared that contrary to all that, he was “convinced” that Islam was an “inherently violent ideology,” and that he was “even more convinced that Europe will eventually submit to Islam.”

Perhaps if the Church he joined in 2008 had been more resolute in standing for the defense of Judeo-Christian values and civilization, he would not have such a dark vision of the future. But there’s the rub: the determination to seek accommodation with Islam at all costs, even as Muslims persecute Christians with increasing ferocity all over the globe, is near-universal in the Catholic Church.

Everywhere Catholic prelates, even at the highest levels, pursue a “dialogue” with Muslim leaders, whose responses to that dialogue always solely involve not genuine discussion of matters of concern, but thinly veiled criticism of Christianity and calls to accept Islam. Those prelates are almost universally punctilious about avoiding ever saying anything remotely critical or challenging to their aggressive, expansionist partner in this “dialogue,” although that partner is convinced of his own superiority and of the inevitability of the removal of all obstacles to his will.

 

[arabic_catholic]

And as if to illustrate the reasonableness of Allam’s frustration, Matthew Schmitz of First Things, one of the leading Catholic publications in the United States, took the opportunity of his apostasy not to engage in any introspection about the Church’s resolutely irenic clinging to the 1960s-era model of “dialogue” even as it is confronted around the world with an increasingly violent and supremacist Islam, but to excoriate Allam, a former Muslim, for his misunderstanding of Islam: “In retrospect, Allam’s disappointment seems inevitable. If we mistake Islam for a mere ideology of violence, we risk mistaking Christianity as merely an ideology that allows us to oppose that violence. Yet Christ did not come to this earth or found his church to oppose Islam but to propose the gospel. Not to eclipse the moon, but to reveal the Son.”

Magdi Allam knows far better than Matthew Schmitz, who has previously written an apologia for Islamic law, glossing over its elements that mandate the subjugation of women, the oppression of non-Muslims, and its denial of the freedom of speech and the freedom of conscience, that Islam is not “a mere ideology of violence.” But whatever else it is, it is also clearly exactly that: an ideology of violence (cf. Qur’an 2:190-193; 4:89; 8:39; 8:60; 9:5; 9:29; 47:4, etc.). Schmitz thinks that Allam’s recognition of that fact, and frustration with the Catholic Church’s general failure to grasp its implications, disqualifies him as an analyst of the Islamic jihad threat: “Benedict’s pontificate has come to an end; in time Islam will, too. Neither event should affect whether or not one affirms Christian truth or chooses to be in communion with the bishop of Rome. That Allam so grievously fails to understand this aspect of Christian truth ought to warn us against the judgment of Islam he shares with many other anti-Islam advocates.”

I don’t know Magdi Allam personally and don’t know anything beyond his published statements about why he has left the Catholic Church. I am not going to leave the Catholic Church over its failure to defend those powerless Christians who are facing ever more violent persecution from Muslims worldwide, as I am aware that the Church is made up entirely of imperfect, sinful people. I also know, with all due respect to those to whom respect is due, that the charism of infallibility is nowhere taught as inhering in bishops’ or even popes’ prudential judgments about how to deal with the threat of jihad and Islamic supremacism.

I share Magdi Allam’s frustration over that failure of the Church to address that persecution in any meaningful way. I share his outrage over statements like that of Bishop Robert McManus of Worcester, Massachusetts, who barred me from speaking at a Catholic conference over concerns that “Mr. Spencer’s talk about extreme, militant Islamists and the atrocities that they have perpetrated globally might undercut the positive achievements that we Catholics have attained in our inter-religious dialogue with devout Muslims.” Why would a talk about “extreme, militant Islamists and the atrocities that they have perpetrated globally” undercut dialogue with Muslims who profess to reject those atrocities and the interpretation of Islam that underlies and justifies them? If they reject the jihadists’ understanding of Islam, why wouldn’t they welcome and applaud an honest discussion of that understanding of Islam, which presumably they oppose as much as I do?

And that is the problem with all this spurious “dialogue.” Muslim Brotherhood theorist Sayyid Qutb explained: “The chasm between Islam and Jahiliyyah [the society of unbelievers] is great, and a bridge is not to be built across it so that the people on the two sides may mix with each other, but only so that the people of Jahiliyyah may come over to Islam.” That’s what “interfaith dialogue” is for Islamic supremacists: a vehicle for proselytizing.

Magdi Allam is right, and righteous, to be appalled at Catholic leaders’ failure to understand that, and – despite all their rhetoric about identifying with the downtrodden -- to “speak truth to power” and “give voice to the voiceless” in any sense beyond rhetoric. I am sorry that he has left the Church, and hope that the bland complacency and excusing of Islam-inspired atrocities of Catholics like Matthew Schmitz will soon give way to a recognition that what Magdi Allam sees so clearly is indeed a real and immense threat, and that his prophetic voice must be heeded, before all is lost – which could be quite a bit sooner than anyone thinks.

 

[Reuben_J]

Magdi Cristiano Allam’s reason of leaving due to the Catholic Church relationship with Islam rather than Catholic’s truth about God seems to be misplaced. It smacks more of a political reason and stems from dislike of the Islamic religion.

The Church’s dialogue with Muslim leaders is a better strategy rather than a non-dialogue at all. The approach to that dialogue is respect; not accepting the belief of another person regardless of how the Muslim counterparts are using it to promote their agenda. Respect will go a long way and we have nothing to lose by according it to another religion. When there is no respect, one cannot even begin a dialogue.

 

[arabic_catholic]

Magdi Cristiano Allam’s reason of leaving due to the Catholic Church relationship with Islam rather than Catholic’s truth about God seems to be misplaced. It smacks more of a political reason and stems from dislike of the Islamic religion.

The Church’s dialogue with Muslim leaders is a better strategy rather than a non-dialogue at all. The approach to that dialogue is respect; not accepting the belief of another person regardless of how the Muslim counterparts are using it to promote their agenda. Respect will go a long way and we have nothing to lose by according it to another religion. When there is no respect, one cannot even begin a dialogue.

This is nonsense. dialogue with who ? the azhar university slammed benedict the 16th because he defended copts in egypt , and they stopped the dialogue with him … christians in syria are being killed , and churches are being bombed by islamic salfies who are the most influential group in the middle east today , yet we are still in the age of dialogue . Hypocrisy in it’s best form … even muslims like tarek fateh , and zuhdi jasser are more reasonable about the dangers of Islamist than many within the church!

we Christians are either a force of good in the church , or we will continue the “dialogue” , like the type we were engaging with the western society .

people usually ask me weather converts to christianity join the church , to which my answer is , of course not , and I guess high ranking bishops would stop more people from joining the church with their confusing policies. If you take the time to read the article , Spencer was stopped by a bishop in Boston to give a talk to a catholics ! The bishop was under pressure from muslim activist “Abdul Cader Asmal … a self-proclaimed friend and supporter of a convicted jihad terrorist, Tarek Mehanna, who is currently serving 17½ years in federal prison for aiding Al Qaeda.”

The bishop preferred to listen to radical muslim than to allow a fellow catholic to teach the faithful stuff from islamic classical theology and doctrines which the media don’t disscuss

I debated a British convert to islam , a former catholic , who cited JPII statements on islam as how great islam is , and how he respected the values of islam , as a reason of why I should revert back to it. This nonsense from the hierarchy which need to stop, and sooner , rather than later , they will come to the real conclusion . No wonder this british would leave the faith , when he sees this high langauge from the church . I wonder when did the church praised JW and Mormonism for their high values ! it is understandable in the 70s and 80s that the church didn’t know islam , but now where books and knowledge are available , things need to change . Even though The middle east is being more radicalized , the church still stuck with it’s 70s policy when Communism and nationalism , and not political islam, were popular in the arab world. time have changed .

 

[SonSearcher]

Magdi Cristiano Allam’s reason of leaving due to the Catholic Church relationship with Islam rather than Catholic’s truth about God seems to be misplaced. It smacks more of a political reason and stems from dislike of the Islamic religion.

The Church’s dialogue with Muslim leaders is a better strategy rather than a non-dialogue at all. The approach to that dialogue is respect; not accepting the belief of another person regardless of how the Muslim counterparts are using it to promote their agenda. Respect will go a long way and we have nothing to lose by according it to another religion. When there is no respect, one cannot even begin a dialogue.

I completely agree. Just as Christ was obedient until death we should also imitate that. I feel dialogue is better than none too, the reasoning for his leaving doesn’t seem adequate.

 

[SonSearcher]

This is nonsense. dialogue with who ? the azhar university slammed benedict the 16th because he defended copts in egypt , and they stopped the dialogue with him … christians in syria are being killed , and churches are being bombed by islamic salfies who are the most influential group in the middle east today , yet we are still in the age of dialogue . Hypocrisy in it’s best form … even muslims like tarek fateh , and zuhdi jasser are more reasonable about the dangers of Islamist than many within the church!

we Christians are either a force of good in the church , or we will continue the “dialogue” , like the type we were engaging with the western society .

people usually ask me weather converts to christianity join the church , to which my answer is , of course not , and I guess high ranking bishops would stop more people from joining the church with their confusing policies. If you take the time to read the article , Spencer was stopped by a bishop in Boston to give a talk to a catholics ! The bishop was under pressure from muslim activist “Abdul Cader Asmal … a self-proclaimed friend and supporter of a convicted jihad terrorist, Tarek Mehanna, who is currently serving 17½ years in federal prison for aiding Al Qaeda.”

The bishop preferred to listen to radical muslim than to allow a fellow catholic to teach the faithful stuff from islamic classical theology and doctrines which the media don’t disscuss

I debated a British convert to islam , a former catholic , who cited JPII statements on islam as how great islam is , and how he respected the values of islam , as a reason of why I should revert back to it. This nonsense from the hierarchy which need to stop, and sooner , rather than later , they will come to the real conclusion . No wonder this british would leave the faith , when he sees this high langauge from the church . I wonder when did the church praised JW and Mormonism for their high values ! it is understandable in the 70s and 80s that the church didn’t know islam , but now where books and knowledge are available , things need to change . Even though The middle east is being more radicalized , the church still stuck with it’s 70s policy when Communism and nationalism , and not political islam, were popular in the arab world. time have changed .

Regardless we should follow the Church which includes the Pope as Holy Father. Anything else smacks of pride.

 

[Reuben_J]

This is nonsense. dialogue with who ? the azhar university slammed benedict the 16th because he defended copts in egypt , and they stopped the dialogue with him … christians in syria are being killed , and churches are being bombed by islamic salfies who are the most influential group in the middle east today , yet we are still in the age of dialogue . Hypocrisy in it’s best form … even muslims like tarek fateh , and zuhdi jasser are more reasonable about the dangers of Islamist than many within the church!

we Christians are either a force of good in the church , or we will continue the “dialogue” , like the type we were engaging with the western society .

people usually ask me weather converts to christianity join the church , to which my answer is , of course not , and I guess high ranking bishops would stop more people from joining the church with their confusing policies. If you take the time to read the article , Spencer was stopped by a bishop in Boston to give a talk to a catholics ! The bishop was under pressure from muslim activist “Abdul Cader Asmal … a self-proclaimed friend and supporter of a convicted jihad terrorist, Tarek Mehanna, who is currently serving 17½ years in federal prison for aiding Al Qaeda.”

The bishop preferred to listen to radical muslim than to allow a fellow catholic to teach the faithful stuff from islamic classical theology and doctrines which the media don’t disscuss

I debated a British convert to islam , a former catholic , who cited JPII statements on islam as how great islam is , and how he respected the values of islam , as a reason of why I should revert back to it. This nonsense from the hierarchy which need to stop, and sooner , rather than later , they will come to the real conclusion . No wonder this british would leave the faith , when he sees this high langauge from the church . I wonder when did the church praised JW and Mormonism for their high values ! it is understandable in the 70s and 80s that the church didn’t know islam , but now where books and knowledge are available , things need to change . Even though The middle east is being more radicalized , the church still stuck with it’s 70s policy when Communism and nationalism , and not political islam, were popular in the arab world. time have changed .

I cannot even have a dialogue with you when you begin with that line. Do you know what I mean? So, what do you want to achieve with this thread?

 

[Reuben_J]

I completely agree. Just as Christ was obedient until death we should also imitate that. I feel dialogue is better than none too, the reasoning for his leaving doesn’t seem adequate.

Thanks. Not just because of the agreement , but also the mention of the obedient Christ.

 

[SonSearcher]

I cannot even have a dialogue with you when you begin with that line. Do you know what I mean? So, what do you want to achieve with this thread?

I would suggest that the OP wants to make a point which he/she has. Hopefully there can be some discussion.

 

[Reuben_J]

I would suggest that the OP wants to make a point which he/she has. Hopefully there can be some discussion.

Yes, absolutely.

 

[arabic_catholic]

what I want to achieve is exactly what William Kilpatrick , a good catholic author , want to achieve. that is to stop seeing shepherds in the church who give their flock to the wolves. christians blood in the islamic world are more worth than not upsetting radicals about their barbaric ideas and doctrines …

The great Atheist Christopher Hitchens got it right when he said that our pastors and bishops will betray their people

youtube.com/watch?v=yNd1zTcvlC0

just watch his wisdom which is deeper than any statement I heard from any member of the church hierarchy on islam .

 

[migueltojose]

This is nonsense. dialogue with who ? the azhar university slammed benedict the 16th because he defended copts in egypt , and they stopped the dialogue with him … christians in syria are being killed , and churches are being bombed by islamic salfies who are the most influential group in the middle east today , yet we are still in the age of dialogue . Hypocrisy in it’s best form … even muslims like tarek fateh , and zuhdi jasser are more reasonable about the dangers of Islamist than many within the church!

we Christians are either a force of good in the church , or we will continue the “dialogue” , like the type we were engaging with the western society .

people usually ask me weather converts to christianity join the church , to which my answer is , of course not , and I guess high ranking bishops would stop more people from joining the church with their confusing policies. If you take the time to read the article , Spencer was stopped by a bishop in Boston to give a talk to a catholics ! The bishop was under pressure from muslim activist “Abdul Cader Asmal … a self-proclaimed friend and supporter of a convicted jihad terrorist, Tarek Mehanna, who is currently serving 17½ years in federal prison for aiding Al Qaeda.”

The bishop preferred to listen to radical muslim than to allow a fellow catholic to teach the faithful stuff from islamic classical theology and doctrines which the media don’t disscuss

I debated a British convert to islam , a former catholic , who cited JPII statements on islam as how great islam is , and how he respected the values of islam , as a reason of why I should revert back to it. This nonsense from the hierarchy which need to stop, and sooner , rather than later , they will come to the real conclusion . No wonder this british would leave the faith , when he sees this high langauge from the church . I wonder when did the church praised JW and Mormonism for their high values ! it is understandable in the 70s and 80s that the church didn’t know islam , but now where books and knowledge are available , things need to change . Even though The middle east is being more radicalized , the church still stuck with it’s 70s policy when Communism and nationalism , and not political islam, were popular in the arab world. time have changed .

I appreciate your perspective. There are just wars. There is justification for pre-emptive measures. There is justification for self defense. Amen Brother.

 

[SonSearcher]

what I want to achieve is exactly what William Kilpatrick , a good catholic author , want to achieve. that is to stop seeing shepherds in the church who give their flock to the wolves. christians blood in the islamic world are more worth than not upsetting radicals about their barbaric ideas and doctrines …

The great Atheist Christopher Hitchens got it right when he said that our pastors and bishops will betray their people

youtube.com/watch?v=yNd1zTcvlC0

just watch his wisdom which is deeper than any statement I heard from any member of the church hierarchy on islam .

How are they exactly giving us to the wolves?

It seems that they are portraying a certain air of conversation that will contribute to the peace in the world and not the opposite. Our shepherds are not throwing us to anyone. What I would like to propose is that their non confrontational action toward islam, may confuse and deflect the radical component of islam.

and by the way whether muslims do it right or not just like fallen away Catholics, and bad Christians around the world, and including even Jews good and bad, it is all the same God of Abraham.

 

[arabic_catholic]

Regardless we should follow the Church which includes the Pope as Holy Father. Anything else smacks of pride.

where did I say don’t follow the pope and the church ? I am talking about the church approach to islam , being bad . I didn’t say revolt , nor did I approve magdi’s reasoning of leaving the church . I have no clue why some Catholics keep repeating those themes as of when a person speaks about an error this means he is rebelling against the church ! no wonder why sex scandals rocked the church on wide scale , I guess everytime one wanted to fix the problem , someone would jump and say :be silent and obedient to the holy church ! we are called as laity to spread and live the gospel and play a bigger role by vatican II , and I as a catholic will practice my role, and as George weigel said in his latest book " the counter reformation church "is over.

side note,

I remember a girl in the forum by the name of “comeback2rome” who was praising islam , and it’s book as a miracle and listing the catechism statement , and saint John of demascus’s quotation against Spencer thesis that muhammad didn’t exist ! now it’s funny that the girl left the church for Orthodoxy later , yet this is the kind of people who we have in the church . we need to put Christ at the center , not feelings and emotion or politics . peace

 

[Reuben_J]

what I want to achieve is exactly what William Kilpatrick , a good catholic author , want to achieve. that is to stop seeing shepherds in the church who give their flock to the wolves. christians blood in the islamic world are more worth than not upsetting radicals about their barbaric ideas and doctrines …

The great Atheist Christopher Hitchens got it right when he said that our pastors and bishops will betray their people

youtube.com/watch?v=yNd1zTcvlC0

just watch his wisdom which is deeper than any statement I heard from any member of the church hierarchy on islam .

The YouTube link is quite a long read, about eight minutes. While I am listening to it, I thought I have a gist of what transpires there.

If I am to personally comment on it, I will (1) not take an atheist seriously about his comment on the Church and (2) what is a flock and in what context God protects it?

Jesus did not protect his ‘flock’ from physical harm. We are reminded of that very explicitly this week in the readings of the liturgy as we hear about apostle like Judas who expected him to be a Messiah that delivered Israel from the Romans’ occupation.

I could not think of a way how our clergies protect us from Islamic’s laws and government and Muslims who persecute them and then achieve the expected result. The Vatican’s approach is to engage them in a dialogue and to establish relationship. Giving out mere statements of condemnation would probably not achieve any result with them who would do what they want anyway. However, we have seen the Church as very concerned and supportive to Christians in Islamic countries where they are badly treated like in Sudan. Vatican does not have any relation with China and Catholics there are worse off; they cannot practice openly. The Chinese government appoints their own priests and bishops, effectively creating two ‘Catholic Churches’.

The way the Church protects their flock is through spiritual help – to increase their faith so as to sustain them even in a very hostile situation. That has always been and will be.

 

[SonSearcher]

where did I say don’t follow the pope and the church ? I am talking about the church approach to islam , being bad . I didn’t say revolt , nor did I approve magdi’s reasoning of leaving the church . I have no clue why some Catholics keep repeating those themes as of when a person speaks about an error this means he is rebelling against the church ! no wonder why sex scandals rocked the church on wide scale , I guess everytime one wanted to fix the problem , someone would jump and say :be silent and obedient to the holy church ! we are called as laity to spread and live the gospel and play a bigger role by vatican II , and I as a catholic will practice my role, and as George weigel said in his latest book " the counter reformation church "is over.

I agree with you at the end there. But your OP stated some things that seemed very critical of both Pope Emeritus Benedict and JPII like this…

"Perhaps if the Church he joined in 2008 had been more resolute in standing for the defense of Judeo-Christian values and civilization, he would not have such a dark vision of the future. But there’s the rub: the determination to seek accommodation with Islam at all costs, even as Muslims persecute Christians with increasing ferocity all over the globe, is near-universal in the Catholic Church."

Seems like you are second guessing the leaders. That would lead me to think you are judging the approach to islam as “being bad.”

and here is where you really nail it on the head as far as not seeming to follow the Church in it’s leading role in counter acting islam as it wishes…

**"what I want to achieve is exactly what William Kilpatrick , a good catholic author , want to achieve. that is to stop seeing shepherds in the church who give their flock to the wolves. christians blood in the islamic world are more worth than not upsetting radicals about their barbaric ideas and doctrines …

The great Atheist Christopher Hitchens got it right when he said that our pastors and bishops will betray their people

youtube.com/watch?v=yNd1zTcvlC0

just watch his wisdom which is deeper than any statement I heard from any member of the church hierarchy on islam ."**

You even cite an Atheist and embed a link to a video and state that his “wisdom” on the subject of our leaders betraying us.

If the leaders betray us it is on their heads not ours.

And I will not listen to an Atheist tell me about my Church just as he should not listen to me on the inter workings of his personal beliefs however misguided I feel they are.

and I have to say, we aren’t just tippy toeing around these radicals and hoping we don’t disturb them. These “radicals” could care less, they dislike us just because we exist, not because we preach from a street corner.

We should be praying for martyrdom to share in Jesus’ glory and if they want to oblige and persecute us as Jesus told us people will… lets do it.

 

[arabic_catholic]

How are they exactly giving us to the wolves?

It seems that they are portraying a certain air of conversation that will contribute to the peace in the world and not the opposite. Our shepherds are not throwing us to anyone. What I would like to propose is that their non confrontational action toward islam, may confuse and deflect the radical component of islam.

and by the way whether muslims do it right or not just like fallen away Catholics, and bad Christians around the world, and including even Jews good and bad, it is all the same God of Abraham.

how can it will make peace ? the Vatican needs to understand that in Syria , the grand mufti , who is a peaceful man , represent a minority view , and most sunnis are salafies and they killed his son because he sided with the government. Al Azhar has no weight like the past , and egypt is now empowered by salfis and muslimbrotherhood groups… so who you will speak with , al azhar again ? or the salfies . do you know what is salafisim ? it is going to the roots of islam and practice pure islam. which means more hate and more violence ! this is the version which is spreading all over the arab world and funded by my country ,! on the other hand , the vatican goes and dialogue with people who don’t carry any weight in the islamic world. the grand mufti of my country asked to destroy every church in arabia last year ! how can you dialogue with people like that ! this is a grand mufti ! not a teenage imam who misunderstand his religion . How can you dialogue with Salafism ?

youtube.com/watch?v=ots_tVPBPC0

please watch this german convert to islam who exposes the reality of islamic groups in europe . take your time and watch it

 

[SonSearcher]

how can it will make peace ? the Vatican needs to understand that in Syria , the grand mufti , who is a peaceful man , represent a minority view , and most sunnis are salafies and they killed his son because he sided with the government. Al Azhar has no weight like the past , and egypt is now empowered by salfis and muslimbrotherhood groups… so who you will speak with , al azhar again ? or the salfies . do you know what is salafisim ? it is going to the roots of islam and practice pure islam. which means more hate and more violence ! this is the version which is spreading all over the arab world and funded by my country ,! on the other hand , the vatican goes and dialogue with people who don’t carry any weight in the islamic world. the grand mufti of my country asked to destroy every church in arabia last year ! how can you dialogue with people like that ! this is a grand mufti ! not a teenage imam who misunderstand his religion . How can you dialogue with Salafism ?

youtube.com/watch?v=ots_tVPBPC0

please watch this german convert to islam and europe who exposes the reality of islamic groups in europe . take your time and watch it

So right here after you say in one of your last posts about how it shouldn’t be about feelings and politics and bam…you are talking about politics. I am not understanding your point of view.

You seem to be suggesting that the Vatican does not know what they are doing in the world. You continue to state what the Church, the Mystical Body of Christ is doing wrong.

You proposing that the Vatican is misguided? That is a dangerous proposition to be making.

And please if you will stop posting videos of atheists and muslims to prove that the Catholic Church is wrong in it’s dealings in the middle east. Find a good video of a Catholic priest or Bishop who can add an actual Catholic prospective.

 

[Reuben_J]

**"what I want to achieve is exactly what William Kilpatrick , a good catholic author , want to achieve. that is to stop seeing shepherds in the church who give their flock to the wolves. christians blood in the islamic world are more worth than not upsetting radicals about their barbaric ideas and doctrines …

The great Atheist Christopher Hitchens got it right when he said that our pastors and bishops will betray their people

youtube.com/watch?v=yNd1zTcvlC0**

just watch his wisdom which is deeper than any statement I heard from any member of the church hierarchy on islam ."

You even cite an Atheist and embed a link to a video and state that his “wisdom” on the subject of our leaders betraying us.

If the leaders betray us it is on their heads not ours.

And I will not listen to an Atheist tell me about my Church just as he should not listen to me on the inter workings of his personal beliefs however misguided I feel they are.

and I have to say, we aren’t just tippy toeing around these radicals and hoping we don’t disturb them. These “radicals” could care less, they dislike us just because we exist, not because we preach from a street corner.

We should be praying for martyrdom to share in Jesus’ glory and if they want to oblige and persecute us as Jesus told us people will… lets do it.

I concur. Moreover we have to be very careful so that we are not misrepresenting the message of the Gospel. We are told that we are like sheep being led to a slaughter house and Jesus showed how that is true by having himself experiencing the same.

We have to be realistic – the Church does not have any political power or does it has any means of enforcing political objective.

 

[arabic_catholic]

I agree with you at the end there. But your OP stated some things that seemed very critical of both Pope Emeritus Benedict and JPII like this…

"Perhaps if the Church he joined in 2008 had been more resolute in standing for the defense of Judeo-Christian values and civilization, he would not have such a dark vision of the future. But there’s the rub: the determination to seek accommodation with Islam at all costs, even as Muslims persecute Christians with increasing ferocity all over the globe, is near-universal in the Catholic Church."

Seems like you are second guessing the leaders. That would lead me to think you are judging the approach to islam as “being bad.”

and here is where you really nail it on the head as far as not seeming to follow the Church in it’s leading role in counter acting islam as it wishes…

**"what I want to achieve is exactly what William Kilpatrick , a good catholic author , want to achieve. that is to stop seeing shepherds in the church who give their flock to the wolves. christians blood in the islamic world are more worth than not upsetting radicals about their barbaric ideas and doctrines …

The great Atheist Christopher Hitchens got it right when he said that our pastors and bishops will betray their people

youtube.com/watch?v=yNd1zTcvlC0**

just watch his wisdom which is deeper than any statement I heard from any member of the church hierarchy on islam ."

You even cite an Atheist and embed a link to a video and state that his “wisdom” on the subject of our leaders betraying us.

If the leaders betray us it is on their heads not ours.

And I will not listen to an Atheist tell me about my Church just as he should not listen to me on the inter workings of his personal beliefs however misguided I feel they are.

and I have to say, we aren’t just tippy toeing around these radicals and hoping we don’t disturb them. These “radicals” could care less, they dislike us just because we exist, not because we preach from a street corner.

We should be praying for martyrdom to share in Jesus’ glory and if they want to oblige and persecute us as Jesus told us people will… lets do it.

the first passage you quoted was from Spencer and not from me . Nevertheless, Spencer has the right to bash their approach , remember just two months ago a bishop canceled an event about islam whcih spencer was supposed to speak in. Mr. Spencer knows his stuff , and when he sees the church trying to prevent him from speaking to catholics , he will in turn thinks that it doesn’t stand for western civilization . now this is a complex issue which I cannot explain in detail here .but in short, the statement is not from me but from him

as for the second quote , you should listen to it before judging me on a thing that you didn’t listen to . An Atheist is a human being by the way, and Hitchens , sadly , is more honest than many members of the hierarchy , I would not retreat from my statement for christ taught me to speak the truth . There is nothing wrong in that, didn’t many bishops made mistakes in the recent past ? they can make mistakes , you know , many times without the intention of doing such a thing. they are humans. we respect their office , but it is important to be united with them , rather than following them without informing them about the real picture that they are missing ; catherine of siena is a good example for us.

Again , you keep trying to imagine that I am asking Catholics to rebel against the bishops. I am not, far from it !