Robert Spencer on Magdi Allam's story

[IgnatianPhilo]

The CCC is a guideline for Catholics from the Magesterium and also it was done as a reference for Bishops.

Im assuming that if Magdi read the CCC 841 beforehand he wouldn’t have become a Catholic or be surprised (and in this case because Pope Francis is giving Muslims leaders such appreciation) with his charitable tone to Muslims.

That said the CCC 841 is taken partly from Lumen Gentium and other writings. The full context can be only reconciled with those other writings. As far as to me personally it doesn’t mean if the Catholic Church is giving some sort of concession for Muslims that weakens Catholic teaching in any way or be an excuse to leave the Church. Especially since** there is no mention of the prophet of Islam**.

Re St. John Damscene’s. Yes, that was his opinion. Was he in a teaching capacity too?

MJ

I would say yes he was in a learning capacity since he deemed himself at least able to give “An exact exposition of the orthodox faith.” Yes he got things wrong, but I have to quote him on islam as he is an early voice amongst the muslims, against hte muslims and their God. And I don’t see in the history and teaching of the church up until the modern time with this catechism any other such teaching.

Its an issue of idenity. If you want to say you worship the same God with those who say Jesus Christ is not God and anyone who says he is God is damned and has committed unforgivable sin, then you can, but I cannot reconcile that. They deny who God is. I would ask, what tradition are you appealing to in regaurds to considering Muslims having the same God as us. There is none you can appeal to, this is a totally new idea.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

I think this is just word play. The principle is the same. Both the Jews and the Muslims worship God but they lack the full knowledge and truth about God.

No they don’t. Like Christians they have definitions and defined beliefs which are mutually exclusive to the claims and doctrines of Christianity, found in the councils and creeds of those councils. Jews tell us God is a single person, as do the muslims. They both deny who Jesus is. We say together, though I am Orthodox and you are Roman Catholic, that Jesus Christ is God, that he shares the exact same essence with God the father. So to deny Jesus Christ as God, is to deny who the father is, since they share the exact same essence and their essence cannot be taken away from them. Muslims and Jews deny God.

Now your argument would work with the “muslim” who doesn’t really follow Islam, but rather doesn’t know who God and doesn’t say Jesus isn’t God. But still tries to follow God anyway. In that case, they cease to be muslim. You cannot have a contradiction like this reconciled.

 

[Reuben_J]

Its an issue of idenity. If you want to say you worship the same God with those who say Jesus Christ is not God and anyone who says he is God is damned and has committed unforgivable sin, then you can, but I cannot reconcile that. They deny who God is.

Then by this logic we can say the Protestants (not all) worship different Christ than us because they do not worship the Eucharist and we do.

Edit: They reject the Eucharist (which is the same thing as rejecting Jesus, from our view). They consider the Eucharist as idol too so that makes them worship different Jesus, if your logic applies.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Then by this logic we can say the Protestants worship different Christ than us because they do not worship the Eucharist and we do.

Do protestants deny the fundamental identity of God? No, they don’t. They accept the trinity, rather they dissagree with the function of God in regaurds to his sacraments. This isn’t a denial of whom God is. Both Catholics and protestants agree on who God is. So i do not see the similarity. But in trying to come up with examples like these, you are ignoring the fundamental problem.

You have Muslims saying, that JESUS IS NOT GOD, YOU COMMIT SHIRK AN UNFORGIVABLE SIN if you say he is God. The quran says this as do the traditions of the hadith. How do you then say with these people, “your God is Our God.”?

 

[Reuben_J]

No they don’t. Like Christians they have definitions and defined beliefs which are mutually exclusive to the claims and doctrines of Christianity, found in the councils and creeds of those councils. Jews tell us God is a single person, as do the muslims. They both deny who Jesus is. We say together, though I am Orthodox and you are Roman Catholic, that Jesus Christ is God, that he shares the exact same essence with God the father. So to deny Jesus Christ as God, is to deny who the father is, since they share the exact same essence and their essence cannot be taken away from them. Muslims and Jews deny God.

Now your argument would work with the “muslim” who doesn’t really follow Islam, but rather doesn’t know who God and doesn’t say Jesus isn’t God. But still tries to follow God anyway. In that case, they cease to be muslim. You cannot have a contradiction like this reconciled.

Jews and us both believe in the Old Testaments. The belief in God there is explicit. You can say that they deny Jesus and I do too. That does not change the fact that there is one God which they claim to worship.

Granted you have your opinion on all this and I am not going to change that. You ask and I answer, that’s all.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Jews and us both believe in the Old Testaments. The belief in God there is explicit. You can say that they deny Jesus and I do too. That does not change the fact that there is one God which they claim to worship.

Granted you have your opinion on all this and I am not going to change that. You ask and I answer, that’s all.

Jews think they believe in the Old testament but they deny the Old testament and what it says concerning Christ who is God. This cheap appeal to the jews doesn’t effect me. Jews deny God, they deny who he is by denying his son. They worship their unitarian God they have invented for themselves, nothing else. An Idol as it were.

 

[Reuben_J]

Do protestants deny the fundamental identity of God? No, they don’t. They accept the trinity, rather they dissagree with the function of God in regaurds to his sacraments. This isn’t a denial of whom God is. Both Catholics and protestants agree on who God is. So i do not see the similarity. But in trying to come up with examples like these, you are ignoring the fundamental problem.

You have Muslims saying, that JESUS IS NOT GOD, YOU COMMIT SHIRK AN UNFORGIVABLE SIN if you say he is God. The quran says this as do the traditions of the hadith. How do you then say with these people, “your God is Our God.”?

You have to understand how Catholic regards the Eucharist. They worship the Eucharist because Jesus is truly present in body and blood there. If Protestants reject the Eucharist which is the same as Jesus, it also means they reject Jesus. A Catholic can say that if they apply the standard of your logic.

As Muslims consider it is a shirk to worship Jesus, certain Protestant denominations consider it idolatry to worship what they consider as merely bread and wine. Both end result are sin and damnation

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

You have to understand how Catholic regards the Eucharist. They worship the Eucharist because Jesus is truly present in body and blood there. If Protestants reject the Eucharist which is the same as Jesus, it also means they reject Jesus. A Catholic can say that if they apply the standard of your logic.

As Muslims consider it is a shirk to worship Jesus, certain Protestant denominations consider it idolatry to worship what they consider as merely bread and wine. Both end result are sin and damnation

At most it means you dissagree on where the essence of God is, not the identiy of God. What your pointing out is a difference in function, not identity. Jews and Muslims deny the identity of God and function of God.

 

[Reuben_J]

Jews think they believe in the Old testament but they deny the Old testament and what it says concerning Christ who is God. This cheap appeal to the jews doesn’t effect me. Jews deny God, they deny who he is by denying his son. They worship their unitarian God they have invented for themselves, nothing else. An Idol as it were.

Goodness. Why would that affect you? You have every right in this whole wide world to your opinion. I am merely telling you about our belief as per the CCC and you asked.

 

[Reuben_J]

At most it means you dissagree on where the essence of God is, not the identiy of God. What your pointing out is a difference in function, not identity. Jews and Muslims deny the identity of God and function of God.

Funny.

Muslims reject Jesus
Catholics worship Jesus
Muslims and Catholics do not worship the same God.

Protestants reject the Eucharist
Catholics worship the Eucharist
Protestants and Catholics worship the same Jesus

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Funny.

Muslims reject Jesus
Catholics worship Jesus
Muslims and Catholics do not worship the same God.

Protestants reject the Eucharist
Catholics worship the Eucharist
Protestants and Catholics worship the same Jesus

Again, Function and Identity are the keys here. Protestants reject a function of the identity of God, where he can dispense himself sacramentally. Whereas the Muslims reject the identity and function of God and his sacraments.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Goodness. Why would that affect you? You have every right in this whole wide world to your opinion. I am merely telling you about our belief as per the CCC and you asked.

I’m just giving reason to contradict the CCC.

 

[KathleenGee]

I met a Serbian Orthodox woman several years ago and very astute. Very smart. She grew up in Yugoslavia.

When the communists rule, many Muslims and Orthodox did not go to church. The ones who were faithful were the Catholics.

 

[ffg]

In today’s world, ‘feelings’ trump thinking.

 

[doormouse73]

In today’s world, ‘feelings’ trump thinking.

 

[aspirant]

have you ever read any of Robert Spencer’s books? … He accurately reports what Islam really teaches not the puff pieces we are handed as the so called “peaceful” stuff. Robert Spencer is fluent in Arabic and that is key when one is reading the Koran and the hadiths since that is what one is suppose to read the Koran in, not in one’s vernacular language.

I much prefer the writings of authors such as Fr. Jacques Jomier. Fr. Jomier was fluent in Arabic, lived in predominantly Muslim nations for much of his life, an expert in Islamic studies and consultant to the Secretariat for Non-Christians at the Vatican, and his works do not exhibit the overt prejudice and hostility of Spencer.

The idea that Spencer “accurately reports what Islam really teaches” is disputed, to say the very least (example).

I just goggled Spencer… I also note that he heads an organization "Stop Islamization of America"

An organization advocating the idea that Muslims should “reform the Qur’an” in order “to expunge it of Jew-hatred, misogny, incitement to violence, etc.” (Pam Gellar’s words.) SIOA demands nothing less of Islam than that it cease to be Islam.

the US Patent and Trademark Office… deemed {SIOA} to disparage all of Muslim as terrorists.

It shouldn’t take very long, reading SIOA’s website, to figure out how someone would get that idea.

 

[Vouthon]

And yet Magdi Allam didn’t just leave because of the church’s dialogue with Muslims (an utterly ridiculous reason given that this has nothing to do with its dogmatic teachings) he rejects the church’s sexual ethics. His reason 4 for leaving the church goes as follows:

Finally, I note that the Church is physiologically tempted by evil, understood as a violation of public morality, since it requires behaviors that are in conflict with human nature, such as priestly celibacy, abstaining from sexual relations outside of marriage , the indissolubility of marriage …

Original Italian text: Infine prendo atto che la Chiesa è fisiologicamente tentata dal male, inteso come violazione della morale pubblica, dal momento che impone dei comportamenti che sono in conflitto con la natura umana, quali il celibato sacerdotale, l’astensione dai rapporti sessuali al di fuori del matrimonio, l’indissolubilità del matrimonio

…

Did you read that guys? Allam thinks that the “indissolubility of marriage” is against nature. He left the church because she defends marriage, opposes sexual libertinism and upholds celibacy as a selfless choice for some people to live and honour God as a calling.

I mean…

So let me get this straight: Allam wants the church to change 2,000 years of sexual ethics received from the Bible and Sacred tradition, yet preach intolerance towards Muslims and make the church into some kind of anti-Muslim institution.

That is frankly disgusting IMHO. Magdi Allam’s sexual libertinism is exactly what the church needs to never give in too. Allam has defamed the sanctity of a loving, marital relationship.

There are quite a few things that the church does not agree with Islam on, such as the belief that Jesus is a prophet, polygamy is acceptable etc. Nevertheless she recognises that Islam also touches upon great truths that are shared with the Catholic Church, that Muslims are beloved of God like all men and that they are worthy of respect for their faith in God, no matter whether they understand God correctly or not and that if they adhere faithfully to their conscience and follow all that is good and true in Islam that they can attain to salvation though the grace of God.

I would have dialogue any day over intolerance towards a billion people that Allam exhibits and a sexual libertinism far more characteristic of a morally relativistic"moving with the times" attitude than simply recognising the good in Muslims.

He grossly misunderstands the fact that for the lover of truth dialogue is always possible, as Pope Paul VI once said.

 

[dzheremi]

I’m sorry that Magdi Allam didn’t find what he was looking for in the Roman Catholic Church, and that the Roman Catholic Church apparently didn’t find what they were looking for in Magdi Allam. Conversions can be messy business, as I know well enough on a personal level.

That said, I’m glad that my Church is an anti-Islamic institution (even though it can’t say so publicly, for obvious reasons), as Islam is certainly an anti-Christian and anti-Christ institution. Only one of us can ultimately be right, since we make mutually exclusive claims. Islam is, of course, not right. The end.

 

[doormouse73]

i hear the Catholic Church agree with some things with islam.could any body point them out please im confused a little here.

the creator is one,and… ?

 

[aspirant]

i hear the Catholic Church agree with some things with islam.could any body point them out please im confused a little here.

Many things, such as Jesus & Mary never sinned, Moses is a prophet of God, etc.

Of course there are also many disagreements. We also believe Jesus is God, for example, while Muslims do not. But we agree with Muslims that there is only one God, Moses is a prophet of God, Jesus is a prophet who never sinned, and other things besides.