Robert Spencer?

[robwar]

While this may be true, this is no different than what most military strategists would do in such circumstances. Also, as a group becomes stronger, they would become more assertive and impose their influence over other groups. And when they were still weak and small in number, they usually are meeker but show their true color when they become stronger.

Muslims would tell us that about 80% of Jihad is an internal struggle to overcome personal weaknesses. Only the remainder is for war purpose and that is only when Islam is threatened and under attack.

If Jihad is meant to spread Islam among the infidels then this is Christians’ mission too, to baptize them and bring them to know God except that it is Christianity.

What Spencer is advocating is the abuse of Jihad by Muslim idealists, politicians and freedom fighters as the definition for Jihad. Well, it is not. What Christians should be wary of is to deal with the Muslim extremists that may threaten our own freedom and that probably are Spencer’s main agenda. But of course we hear a few statements by non-Muslim posters here that there are no Muslim moderates, only Muslims and true Muslims are extremists.

That’s right. They believe that prophets do not sin but only make mistakes. Mohammad is an example that all Muslims strive to follow. Like I said, it is a given that when a group is in the majority, they would exert their influence over other groups and this should not come as a surprise. Muslims are a good example in this attribute since Mohammad showed them by his own action. Of course that goes without saying that Mohammad is not a true prophet.

Christians should take heed of this but the best defense is when Christians are strong in their own faith. Worldly victory is never a Christian’s priority. So what if we can save our bodies but cannot save our souls? Why would the number of Muslims increased and Christians have become indifferent to their faith?

Why do very well meaning Catholics continuous defend a faith that denies Christ is the Son of God, the trinity is misrepresented as God, Jesus and Mary in the Koran, our claim of the resurrection is a fraud, Jews are considered decendents of apes, Mohammed marries a six year old and then has sex with her at nine, Allah told him he could marry his daughter-in-law, men can abuse women and they are considered tilth. Mohammed is a false prophet period. His followers may be very nice well-meaning people but when someone like Robert Spencer comes along, points out real teaching of the Koran which is backed up by hadiths etc instead of following the normal pc sweep it under the carpet because we must be nice is a phony nice at best. Pope Francis in his Sunday address said we need to pray for persecuted Christians around the world. Christians are being persecuted, killed, harassed in Muslim countries and in fact more Christians have been killed in the 20th Century than any other time. I would rather stand with my fellow Christians and speak out about who and what is persecuting them and continuously defend in the thought of being “nice” a political religious that want to wipe us and everyone else out that isn’t Muslim.

 

[Reuben_J]

Why do very well meaning Catholics continuous defend a faith that denies Christ is the Son of God, the trinity is misrepresented as God, Jesus and Mary in the Koran, our claim of the resurrection is a fraud, Jews are considered decendents of apes, Mohammed marries a six year old and then has sex with her at nine, Allah told him he could marry his daughter-in-law, men can abuse women and they are considered tilth. Mohammed is a false prophet period. His followers may be very nice well-meaning people but when someone like Robert Spencer comes along, points out real teaching of the Koran which is backed up by hadiths etc instead of following the normal pc sweep it under the carpet because we must be nice is a phony nice at best. Pope Francis in his Sunday address said we need to pray for persecuted Christians around the world. Christians are being persecuted, killed, harassed in Muslim countries and in fact more Christians have been killed in the 20th Century than any other time. I would rather stand with my fellow Christians and speak out about who and what is persecuting them and continuously defend in the thought of being “nice” a political religious that want to wipe us and everyone else out that isn’t Muslim.

Who is defending Islam, rob?

 

[Reuben_J]

Pope Francis in his Sunday address said we need to pray for persecuted Christians around the world. Christians are being persecuted, killed, harassed in Muslim countries and in fact more Christians have been killed in the 20th Century than any other time. I would rather stand with my fellow Christians and speak out about who and what is persecuting them and continuously defend in the thought of being “nice” a political religious that want to wipe us and everyone else out that isn’t Muslim.

And Pope JPII and BVI too but they did not do a Spencer.

Christians are being killed and persecuted in Muslim countries and others. The Vatican is doing much to address this which perhaps many Catholics do not realize.

 

[robwar]

This is off topic but Aspirant stated that modern slavery doesn’t exist in Saudi Arabia since it was banned in 1962 and that Robert Spencer has it wrong. Sam_777 who lives in Saudi Arabia did start a thread once on the subject. Likewise, any one can do a quick google search on slavery and Saudi Arabia and find a number of articles within the year about the problem of slavery. Here is one: frontpagemag.com/2012/dgreenfield/saudi-offers-castrated-african-slave-for-sale-on-facebook/ where on Facebook, someone is offering their castrated slave for sale. Again Robert Spencer is correct and this is a problem that ever ended in the middle east. The Arab slave trade was bigger than whatever European ever did which equally is evil. Popes through the centuries always condemned slavery and while Europe in the middle ages had serfs and more of an indentured servants, slavery as in Rome and Greece is not found.

 

[Denise1957]

No they are not bound at all, Deception in reaching out to others is allowed.

Thanks. Then Robert Spencer is right about this. And I would think that this would be a big problem. Since deception appears to be a sanctioned mode of dealing with non-Muslims, then how can anything they say be believed?

I don’t have anything against individual Muslims. I’ve had Muslim co-workers whom I get along with quite well. But Islam itself presents a big problem (if Robert Spencer is correct about most everything else that he asserts).

 

[GaryTaylor]

Where is he wrong in this interview? I don’t know, I tend to agree that it is imperative to know our own faith. I become familiar with the name here.

rightwingnews.com/uncategorized/stealth-jihad-an-interview-with-robert-spencer/

 

[Reuben_J]

This is off topic but Aspirant stated that modern slavery doesn’t exist in Saudi Arabia since it was banned in 1962 and that Robert Spencer has it wrong. Sam_777 who lives in Saudi Arabia did start a thread once on the subject. Likewise, any one can do a quick google search on slavery and Saudi Arabia and find a number of articles within the year about the problem of slavery. Here is one: frontpagemag.com/2012/dgreenfield/saudi-offers-castrated-african-slave-for-sale-on-facebook/ where on Facebook, someone is offering their castrated slave for sale. Again Robert Spencer is correct and this is a problem that ever ended in the middle east. The Arab slave trade was bigger than whatever European ever did which equally is evil. Popes through the centuries always condemned slavery and while Europe in the middle ages had serfs and more of an indentured servants, slavery as in Rome and Greece is not found.

Okay. Officially it is banned but practiced. An honest search would find that many people in many countries (I would not name the countries as per Forum rule) do involve in human slavery and trafficking. It is really sad.

Children were maimed and sold as beggars, women were sold (and sometimes killed) as sex slaves with no freedom of their own.

 

[Reuben_J]

Where is he wrong in this interview? I don’t know, I tend to agree that it is imperative to know our own faith. I become familiar with the name here.

rightwingnews.com/uncategorized/stealth-jihad-an-interview-with-robert-spencer/

He is saying this:
Anything is possible. But “moderate” Islam as an Islamic theological and legal construct does not now exist, and would need to be invented. Can it be done? The record of history shows that it is never wise to say that something could never happen. But as it would involve the overturning or wholesale reevaluation of the fonts of Islamic authority that have existed since virtually the beginning of Islam, it is extremely unlikely.

And yet he is saying this:
They aren’t necessarily confused. They may have grown up and learned their Islam in areas of the world — Central Asia, Eastern Europe, West Africa — where the Islam that has evolved historically simply did not emphasize jihad warfare (hot war or otherwise). Generations of Muslims in those areas and others grew up being quite sincere, devout, knowledgeable and observant without having any notion that they had any imperative to subjugate infidels — and as the faith was presented to them and lived out around them, they didn’t.

Obviously there are two sets of Muslims and Islam, rightly or wrongly. ‘Moderates’ Islam is not unlikely since it already exists albeit they do not seem to know it. Huh? It is just like saying a whole Christian population in a certain country do not know what their true religion is! So that is a problem with this kind of argument. I can consider myself an apologetic for Christianity against Islam when the needs arise but I would not want an argument that is full of holes that could easily be rebutted. So Spencer need to be more credible than that.

 

[robwar]

And Pope JPII and BVI too but they did not do a Spencer.

Christians are being killed and persecuted in Muslim countries and others. The Vatican is doing much to address this which perhaps many Catholics do not realize.

They don’t have to do a “Spencer” but I am encouraged that Pope Francis did mention this last Sunday as well as going to pray at the grave of Saith Pope Pius V. I realize the Vatican might not be able to be more forceful because if they do, it will be worse for Christians in these lands but I have found Robert Spencer to be right on the money in what writes about in his books. I have double checked on a number of his sources just to verify myself in the limited time I have. When in college in the early 1980’s, I knew a Muslim graduate that thought Jews were apes and pigs and would state this with much emotion. I also knew a Muslim woman that was called back to Iran and couldn’t continue her studies here. I was concerned about her safety in returning back because of the Ayotollah and that women were being forced out of the universities and their education. I don’t know what happen to her but I have concern for her and all women in Muslim countries. Persecuted Christians and Muslim women and children are my concern. Someone who points out the real picture not the pc lets all be nice should be lauded and in fact Robert Spencer is not in the least hateful or mean about any Muslim.

 

[GaryTaylor]

What about this women psychologist whom clearly knows the Quran, speaks the language fluent, ex-muslim etc.

youtu.be/Hcm873G94jo

She claims any criticism of Islam is considered an attack, same as Spencer stated. Are they wrong? Perhaps that is why my questions remain unanswered.

So what do muslims say, is it not for anyone to question in honest evaluation the plights of Islam ?

 

[robwar]

He is saying this:
Anything is possible. But “moderate” Islam as an Islamic theological and legal construct does not now exist, and would need to be invented. Can it be done? The record of history shows that it is never wise to say that something could never happen. But as it would involve the overturning or wholesale reevaluation of the fonts of Islamic authority that have existed since virtually the beginning of Islam, it is extremely unlikely.

And yet he is saying this:
They aren’t necessarily confused. They may have grown up and learned their Islam in areas of the world — Central Asia, Eastern Europe, West Africa — where the Islam that has evolved historically simply did not emphasize jihad warfare (hot war or otherwise). Generations of Muslims in those areas and others grew up being quite sincere, devout, knowledgeable and observant without having any notion that they had any imperative to subjugate infidels — and as the faith was presented to them and lived out around them, they didn’t.

Obviously there are two sets of Muslims and Islam, rightly or wrongly. ‘Moderates’ Islam is not unlikely since it already exists albeit they do not seem to know it. Huh? It is just like saying a whole Christian population in a certain country do not know what their true religion is! So that is a problem with this kind of argument. I can consider myself an apologetic for Christianity against Islam when the needs arise but I would not want an argument that is full of holes that could easily be rebutted. So Spencer need to be more credible than that.

Robert Spencer is correct on the moderate Islam. They are driven out because Islam is returning to its violent roots. The group of Muslims that went to help rebuild a Methodist Church should go and rebuild the Churches in Muslim countries that are being attacked but if they did, they would be killed as apostates because it is against sharia law for Christians to build or remodel their own Churches. One can’t judge real Islam on the nice and rare outreaches seen in a free and open society that hasn’t yet turned sharia law compliant, One needs to look hard and good at Muslim countries and what it is really like.

 

[GaryTaylor]

He is saying this:
Anything is possible. But “moderate” Islam as an Islamic theological and legal construct does not now exist, and would need to be invented. Can it be done? The record of history shows that it is never wise to say that something could never happen. But as it would involve the overturning or wholesale reevaluation of the fonts of Islamic authority that have existed since virtually the beginning of Islam, it is extremely unlikely.

And yet he is saying this:
They aren’t necessarily confused. They may have grown up and learned their Islam in areas of the world — Central Asia, Eastern Europe, West Africa — where the Islam that has evolved historically simply did not emphasize jihad warfare (hot war or otherwise). Generations of Muslims in those areas and others grew up being quite sincere, devout, knowledgeable and observant without having any notion that they had any imperative to subjugate infidels — and as the faith was presented to them and lived out around them, they didn’t.

Obviously there are two sets of Muslims and Islam, rightly or wrongly. ‘Moderates’ Islam is not unlikely since it already exists albeit they do not seem to know it. Huh? It is just like saying a whole Christian population in a certain country do not know what their true religion is! So that is a problem with this kind of argument. I can consider myself an apologetic for Christianity against Islam when the needs arise but I would not want an argument that is full of holes that could easily be rebutted. So Spencer need to be more credible than that.

Alright I see, I just don’t get it with this guy, two weeks ago his books were sold here, this week he went over the cliff. I’m a wee bit skeptical of all that.

 

[Reuben_J]

They don’t have to do a “Spencer” but I am encouraged that Pope Francis did mention this last Sunday as well as going to pray at the grave of Saith Pope Pius V. I realize the Vatican might not be able to be more forceful because if they do, it will be worse for Christians in these lands …

This is the reason why not everyone agrees with Spencer’s method. Besides we have the CCC #841. The onus is on us Catholics to live out our own teaching and starts from there regardless of the emotion/anger that may restrict us.

but I have found Robert Spencer to be right on the money in what writes about in his books. I have double checked on a number of his sources just to verify myself in the limited time I have. When in college in the early 1980’s, I knew a Muslim graduate that thought Jews were apes and pigs and would state this with much emotion.

Not surprising but not all Muslims are like that. I have known very religious Muslims who would put a Christian to shame by their humility and kindness. This is true. One is a Muslim dentist who keeps his beard and wears a Muslim head dress. He looks like a typical Taliban. I had this terrible toothache; had no choice but went to a government dental clinic where this dentist attended to me. And boy, how I was surprise by his gentleness and friendliness. I learned that we cannot simply have a preconceived idea on a person just because of their religion.

I also knew a Muslim woman that was called back to Iran and couldn’t continue her studies here. I was concerned about her safety in returning back because of the Ayotollah and that women were being forced out of the universities and their education. I don’t know what happen to her but I have concern for her and all women in Muslim countries. Persecuted Christians and Muslim women and children are my concern.

This is a real concern indeed.

Someone who points out the real picture not the pc lets all be nice should be lauded and in fact Robert Spencer is not in the least hateful or mean about any Muslim.

If Spencer is speaking for Catholics then it is probably better that he emulates the Popes in their dealing with the Muslims otherwise it is just on his personal capacity, a personal crusade which may endanger other Christians in other parts of the world if Muslims should retaliate for their dislike of him.

 

[GaryTaylor]

I probably took Pope Francis message on Islam wrong. I understood him as not to fight with Islam, to be charitable. I didn’t take that to mean not to confront evil where it appears.

 

[oldcatholicguy]

I noticed he gave a talk at Franciscan university, so I figured that must make him a reputable individual. However, my Muslim sympathizing friends believe that because he has no degree in Islamic studies, has had associations with supposed known racist groups, that everything he says, despite some of it seeming to be true, is completely worthless. How should we feel about Robert Spencer?

Well, how do you feel about Richard Dawkins and the validity of his works concerning Christianity? The answer to that question will tell you how you should view Spencer and his works. Neither author has any sort of formal education on the subject they are writing about, neither author submits his work for any form of real peer review, neither author follows any sort of scientific or scholarly methodology, both authors belong to organizations that are politically/socially against the subject they are writing about, both authors have an “axe to grind” against the subject they are writing about, and both authors have a vested financial non-scholarly interest in promoting their views and books. The only real difference between the scholarly merits of the authors and their works is that they have different “axes to grind” and different target audiences.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Islam on Radical Islam.

radicalislam.org/analysis/islamist-outreach-pope-francis-not-without-political-objective

“insulting prophets and messengers is forbidden. This prevents non-Muslims from criticizing Islam when discussing their beliefs.”

Isn’t that where we are at in this conversation?

 

[livingwordunity]

Bottom line is no one’s afraid of getting blown up or beheaded by a devout Christian who takes their faith seriously. But we can’t say the same for the Muslims who take their faith seriously. The peaceful ones seem to be the secular ones who are only nominally Muslim.

 

[oldcatholicguy]

Bottom line is no one’s afraid of getting blown up or beheaded by a devout Christian who takes their faith seriously. But we can’t say the same for the Muslims who take their faith seriously. The peaceful ones seem to be the secular ones who are only nominally Muslim.

Ah, so the ends justify the means as long as you agree with the ends?
Ends- a work that confirms your personal conclusions concerning Islam and Muslims
Means- non-scholarly work using non-scholarly methods and research to support a pre-determined conclusion by a biased author on a subject outside his educational field

 

[oldcatholicguy]

Islam on Radical Islam.

radicalislam.org/analysis/islamist-outreach-pope-francis-not-without-political-objective

“insulting prophets and messengers is forbidden. This prevents non-Muslims from criticizing Islam when discussing their beliefs.”

Isn’t that where we are at in this conversation?

I’m sure the site you linked can in no way be considered biased or have any sort of non-religious political motivation behind it’s contents. I’m sure that if I did some basic research on the site I wouldn’t discover that it belongs to an organization founded with the aim of pushing a pro-Israeli hardline secular political agenda and I’m sure that my research wouldn’t lead me to the discovery that this organization was founded by a person more concerned about secular politics than religion.

 

[GaryTaylor]

I’m sure the site you linked can in no way be considered biased or have any sort of non-religious political motivation behind it’s contents. I’m sure that if I did some basic research on the site I wouldn’t discover that it belongs to an organization founded with the aim of pushing a pro-Israeli hardline secular political agenda and I’m sure that my research wouldn’t lead me to the discovery that this organization was founded by a person more concerned about secular politics than religion.

Oh really? Then I’ll help you. Google his name and read about what these muslim scholars have to say. If you can’t find the links let me know. In fact here…

politico.com/blogs/media/2013/04/al-jazeera-announces-investigative-unit-161669.html

raymondibrahim.com/islam/al-azhar-scholar-christian-copts-will-pay-jizya/