Rohr video: What did Jesus Really Teach?

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From what I have learnt it wasn’t about saving souls as such, but getting rid of those who did not convert to the faith.
I find it fascinating to poke around and learn what the real history is, there are many writings about the history of our church.
The church didn’t become the power and wealth that it did by accepting peoples of all faiths and none.

Is it really extreme to think that as there is a wealth within the church that it does not live up to Jesus’ teachings perfectly?
All I can repeat – There is a difference between the Catholic Church founded by Jesus Christ and His followers. In addition, not one human sin changed Divine Revelation.

While sinful followers are in the Catholic Church, that does not mean that the Catholic Church stopped existing as the visible organization on earth that has Jesus Christ as its head.
 
One O, Jim. If you can’t even get the name correct, then I tend to doubt the rest of your post. Did he torture and execute them personally? Was he canonized for his torture? Was this part of his ‘instruction manual’ for 'all Christians to observe? He was an individual. I stand by my post. And I honor him as a Saint of the Catholic church.

I sense a bit of bitterness in your post, for which I am sorry. . .
Did Thomas Moore personally torture and execute those he had arrested ?

That was the job of the torturers and executioners under his authority, given by the King and of course the Church.

He was canonized because after he himself was arrested and kept in the Tower of London, he repented and realized his mistake in what he had done.

He held fast until death in not signing the oath that Henry XIII was the supreme head of the Church of England.

I’m not bitter at all.

I just don’t attempt to whitewash the dirty laundry of Catholic History.

I accept that there were bad popes, cardinals, bishops and priests.

There are also saints where were persecuted by those in Church authority.

I agree with Fr Rohr, when he said that once a religion gets in bed with the political powers, they begin to distance themselves from the original teachings of their founders.

If there was no corruption in the Church, our Lord Jesus Christ would never have called forth saints like Francis of Assisi and tell help to rebuild the church, which was falling down.

Jim
 
I agree with Fr Rohr, when he said that once a religion gets in bed with the political powers, they begin to distance themselves from the original teachings of their founders.
This is Fr. Rohr’s faulty generalization. Just because religious people cooperate with or become political powers, it doesn’t neccesarily follow that they will distance themselves from the teachings of their founders. A doesn’t cause B.

Take for example buddhist countries like Bhutan, or Thailand, they follow pretty well the teachings of the Bhudda, for good or for worse.

Islam is based on political power, many would argue that to be true to Muhammed is to make the state and the religious powers one. That’s exactly what ISIS is doing, claiming to be the true believers and those that follow Muhammed’s example and teaching to the letter. Unfortunately the Koran is on their side on that one, Muhammed was just as brutal if not more than they. In this case it’s not good to be true to one’s founder and his teaching.

As far as Christianity is concerned, Europe experienced some of the most stable times when the Church was politically influential or had power itself. And they were able to take care of the poor, bring more people to Christ, and to live the gospel by serving the people under their care.

Was there corruption and bad popes, magistrates, priests and bishops? Yes, but that happened in nearly every age, whether they had political power or not.

I myself do not agree with Fr. Rohr’s assertion that the Church can’t be holy and in political power, many years of Catholic rule in many countries have proven otherwise. The other option is secular power which is not influenced by Christians, and that is far more removed from Christ and His teaching. We as Catholics must participate in public life, which includes being in public and political power.

One can be holy and be a powerful person, the two aren’t mutually exclusive as Fr. Rohr seems to hint at. He blames the Church for becoming an establishment Church instead of being on the outside of politcal power. As if being on the outside was the only way to be holy or true to God’s call. God calls us to public life, and can call us to political power to serve our brethren. It is up to the individual to remain true to the teachings of Christ. Are there tempations once in power to not follow Christ, yes, but overcoming temptations courageously is what being a Saint is all about.

Saint Francis did a lot, and the Church was in disrepair, thanks be to God for Saint Francis, but Saint Francis never blamed the Church the way Fr. Rohr does, that’s for sure. I think if anyone should stay true to their founder, it would be Fr. Rohr.
 
This is Fr. Rohr’s faulty generalization. Just because religious people cooperate with or become political powers, it doesn’t neccesarily follow that they will distance themselves from the teachings of their founders. A doesn’t cause B.

Take for example buddhist countries like Bhutan, or Thailand, they follow pretty well the teachings of the Bhudda, for good or for worse.

Islam is based on political power, many would argue that to be true to Muhammed is to make the state and the religious powers one. That’s exactly what ISIS is doing, claiming to be the true believers and those that follow Muhammed’s example and teaching to the letter. Unfortunately the Koran is on their side on that one, Muhammed was just as brutal if not more than they. In this case it’s not good to be true to one’s founder and his teaching.

As far as Christianity is concerned, Europe experienced some of the most stable times when the Church was politically influential or had power itself. And they were able to take care of the poor, bring more people to Christ, and to live the gospel by serving the people under their care.

Was there corruption and bad popes, magistrates, priests and bishops? Yes, but that happened in nearly every age, whether they had political power or not.

I myself do not agree with Fr. Rohr’s assertion that the Church can’t be holy and in political power, many years of Catholic rule in many countries have proven otherwise. The other option is secular power which is not influenced by Christians, and that is far more removed from Christ and His teaching. We as Catholics must participate in public life, which includes being in public and political power.

One can be holy and be a powerful person, the two aren’t mutually exclusive as Fr. Rohr seems to hint at. He blames the Church for becoming an establishment Church instead of being on the outside of politcal power. As if being on the outside was the only way to be holy or true to God’s call. God calls us to public life, and can call us to political power to serve our brethren. It is up to the individual to remain true to the teachings of Christ. Are there tempations once in power to not follow Christ, yes, but overcoming temptations courageously is what being a Saint is all about.

Saint Francis did a lot, and the Church was in disrepair, thanks be to God for Saint Francis, but Saint Francis never blamed the Church the way Fr. Rohr does, that’s for sure. I think if anyone should stay true to their founder, it would be Fr. Rohr.
I grew up in a geographic area where Catholics were just beginning to recognize their responsibility for civil and political action to benefit the community. My Dad was the first Catholic to hold an official position in our town’s government. As said above: “God calls us to public life, and can call us to political power to serve our brethren.” My Dad was involved in a zoning dispute. He knew the law’s of the town and therefore voted yes while some others opposed. Months later, the winning developer stopped at our home. He had a gift for my Dad. My Dad refused the gift even though it was months after the voting. He was known for his honesty. I believe that his honesty was a gift to our town.
 
When a popular public Catholic teacher like Reverend Richard Rohr inspires us and leads us on the good road, we still must be seriously watchful when there is a fork in that road. There still is a talking snake who is very jealous of our position with the Creator God.

In other words, we have the right to question – Why is the teacher Father Rohr making fun of Original Sin? (link below) Is it because the truth of Original Sin causes some people to throw up?

Why is there hidden fear so that the teacher wants all of us to help him rebuild Christianity from the bottom up? The Catholic Church does not need rebuilding; it follows the wisdom of the Holy Spirit. Instead of doing our own thing when it comes to difficult doctrines, the Holy Spirit is here to help us understand.

It is time to recognize that there are a few Catholic teachers, like Reverend Richard Rohr, who are willing to take us from the Catholic road to a scary road which is missing the true Catholic foundation in the first three great chapters of Genesis. These teachers know that once the foundation is cracked into pieces, the walls will fall.

myemail.constantcontact.com/Richard-Rohr-s-Meditation–Original-Blessing.html?soid=1103098668616&aid=yAlpFk3eNPc
 
Jesus taught non violence.
The Church in the past sometimes was far from non violent.

However that was then, this is now…
 
Fr Rohr doesn’t make fun of original sin, but gave the correct context of Genesis, where it begins with the original blessing, not sin.
Genesis began with six clear statements of original blessing or inherent goodness (Genesis 1:10-31), and the words “original sin” are not in the New Testament. Yet the Church became so preoccupied with the fly in the ointment, the flaw in the beauty that we forgot and even missed out on any original blessing. We saw Jesus primarily as a problem-solver rather than as a revealer of the very heart and image of God (Colossians 1:15f). We must now rebuild on a foundation of original goodness, and not on a foundation of original curse or sin. We dug a pit so deep that most people and most theologies could not get back out of it. You must begin with yes. You cannot begin with no, or it is not a beginning at all. [5]
Jews do not have a teaching about Original Sin, the doctrine of Original Sin didn’t come about until St Augustine.

It wasn’t that St Augustine was making Original Sin the focal point for Christians, but rather, salvation through Jesus Christ is the focal point.

Jim
 
Fr Rohr doesn’t make fun of original sin, but gave the correct context of Genesis, where it begins with the original blessing, not sin.
Thank you for providing the pertinent part of the meditation.😃

“Genesis began with six clear statements of original blessing or inherent goodness (Genesis 1:10-31), and the words “original sin” are not in the New Testament. Yet the Church became so preoccupied with the fly in the ointment, the flaw in the beauty that we forgot and even missed out on any original blessing. We saw Jesus primarily as a problem-solver rather than as a revealer of the very heart and image of God (Colossians 1:15f). We must now rebuild on a foundation of original goodness, and not on a foundation of original curse or sin. We dug a pit so deep that most people and most theologies could not get back out of it. You must begin with yes. You cannot begin with no, or it is not a
beginning at all. [5]”

Fly ?? in the ointment ??

Apparently, those readers who are familiar with Catholic teachings would spot basic Original Sin now known as a Fly. 😦

This is why Catholics, who benefit from a spiritual lift, need to be strong in Catholic teachings. Catholics need to understand that doctrines flowing from the first three essential chapters of Genesis have been properly defined and duly declared in a major Ecumenical Catholic Church Council guided by the wisdom of the Holy Spirit. Catholics also need to know that the words Original Sin, even when they are not used in the New Testament, still describe the fact that a serious original sin had been committed in real time and space.

The Original Goodness/Original Blessing is described in Genesis 1:27

“God created mankind in His image;
in the image of God He created them;
male and female He created them.”
 
Thank you for providing the pertinent part of the meditation.😃

“Genesis began with six clear statements of original blessing or inherent goodness (Genesis 1:10-31), and the words “original sin” are not in the New Testament. Yet the Church became so preoccupied with the fly in the ointment, the flaw in the beauty that we forgot and even missed out on any original blessing. We saw Jesus primarily as a problem-solver rather than as a revealer of the very heart and image of God (Colossians 1:15f). We must now rebuild on a foundation of original goodness, and not on a foundation of original curse or sin. We dug a pit so deep that most people and most theologies could not get back out of it. You must begin with yes. You cannot begin with no, or it is not a
beginning at all. [5]”

Fly ?? in the ointment ??

Apparently, those readers who are familiar with Catholic teachings would spot basic Original Sin now known as a Fly. 😦
He’s not talking about a literal fly, but using an expression of speech in that there are people who pay attention to small things and miss the deeper meaning.

Paying more attention to original sin, rather than God’s original blessing, is why we grew up learning about a vengeful God rather than a merciful God.

It’s why Pope Francis upsets people when he talks about God’s mercy and inclusiveness rather than condemnation and exclusiveness toward those who aren’t Catholic.

Jim
 
He’s not talking about a literal fly, but using an expression of speech in that there are people who pay attention to small things and miss the deeper meaning.

Paying more attention to original sin, rather than God’s original blessing, is why we grew up learning about a vengeful God rather than a merciful God.

It’s why Pope Francis upsets people when he talks about God’s mercy and inclusiveness rather than condemnation and exclusiveness toward those who aren’t Catholic.

Jim
I am truly sorry for your loss.

I have a thread Is Genesis 2: 15-17 an explanation of Original Sin? in the Sacred Scripture Forum.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=1005088

When you are curious, you can post a question here or there.

You have my sincere sympathy for your loss of true Catholic education regarding the beauty in the first three God-given chapters of Sacred Scripture. Genesis 1: 27 is ultimate beauty because it begins with our Divine Creator.
 
I am truly sorry for your loss.

I have a thread Is Genesis 2: 15-17 an explanation of Original Sin? in the Sacred Scripture Forum.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=1005088

When you are curious, you can post a question here or there.

You have my sincere sympathy for your loss of true Catholic education regarding the beauty in the first three God-given chapters of Sacred Scripture. Genesis 1: 27 is ultimate beauty because it begins with our Divine Creator.
Your post comes across as high and mighty. :rolleyes:

I haven’t lost anything, but have gained much, not from my doing, but what God has given me.

God Bless
Jim
 
For General Information

When I read that Catholics “grew up learning about a vengeful God rather than a merciful God.” in post 89, I become very sad. There has been a “loss of true Catholic education regarding the beauty in the first three God-given chapters of Sacred Scripture.” in post 90.

Apparently,there are good Catholics who do not have the complete truth found in the first three amazing chapters of Genesis and that is a serious loss.

I cannot change the past. All I can do is to offer my sincere sympathy. And offer to answer questions when any person is curious.
 
grannymh
When I read that Catholics “grew up learning about a vengeful God rather than a merciful God.” in post 89, I become very sad. There has been a “loss of true Catholic education regarding the beauty in the first three God-given chapters of Sacred Scripture.” in post 90.
Many Catholics did grow up learning about a vengeful God whom they had to appease to avoid burning for all eternity in hell. God’s love was conditional. Screw up before you get to a priest for Confession and plan on eternal damnation. This was false teaching, which Fr Rohr is trying to set straight.

Heck, the level of scrupulosity in this very forum shows this mindset about God still exist.

Not until people have a true experience with the love of Jesus Christ, will they be transformed.
Apparently,there are good Catholics who do not have the complete truth found in the first three amazing chapters of Genesis and that is a serious loss.
Good Catholics follow the interpretation of the Church and the first chapters of Genesis are mostly allegorical and not to be taken literally. Science has proven that the literal interpretation puts a person in error and the Church agrees.

The point of Fr Rohr’s meditation concerning original sin, is that is what is taught first to Catholics, rather than the original blessing. In fact, we miss the original blessing in it all.

You can deny this, but it’s the reality of anyone who grew up in the Catholic Church before Vatican II came around.

But as I said above, even today, Catholics are focused more on their sins than on God’s love and mercy. Its why there is little joy in their hearts and why young people see nothing good in religion. For if they knew that they are forgiven and experience the love of Jesus Christ, they would be overwhelmed with joy and that joy would be transmitted to others.

Such is not the case for many. They live in fear and a level of scrupulosity that borders psychotic. This forum and other Catholic websites helps feed it, I’m sad to say.

People who suffer from scrupulosity would be better advised by their confessors to stay out of internet forums such as this, until they’ve had the experience of love from Jesus Christ which will transform’s.

Centered in Christ
Jim
 
Franciscan Fr. Richard Rohr challenges some of the ways we think about our religious focus…

What Did Jesus Really Teach

According to Rohr in this video, the real “non-negotiables” according to Jesus are, to love God and love neighbor.

Politically speaking is one thing. But when we are trying to be transformed in the image of Christ, maybe we should focus on the specks in our own eyes, before telling other people they have lumberyards in theirs.

This thread is dedicated to those who dislike Rohr. Please make an attempt to focus comments on the content of the subject video.

But it isn’t about Rohr. It’s about the content of this particular video. Dragging up the old diatribe about Rohr and new age, etc. is off-topic and you can start your own thread if you want to wallow through all that. If that’s too difficult for you, then you need to examine your motivation for providing it.

MS
When Mr Rohr exhorts us to a closer walk with God, to be more faithful to the greatest commandments, to the beatitudes, to the gospel, who can argue? This has been the continuous message of saints and others down through the centuries. Renewal, as the Church teaches, is always necessary, an ongoing labor. We all need to love better but mentalities, based on the plain old concupiscence and selfishness and pride that are ever-present in human affairs, has often negatively influenced our relationships with God and neighbor. A misunderstanding- and suspicion even -of God and His love, based on the “distorted image” of Him that man first conceived at the Fall according to the catechism, lies at the heart of misguided behavior by Church members including leaders at times, along with a wrong emphasis within her teachings even though the teachings , themselves, are perfectly on target. For example, depending on our emphasis when teaching, God can come off primarily as vengeful, vindictive, and aloof or kind, loving, patient forgiving, etc.

But the Church has been addressing this issue better in the last 50 years than ever before IMO, even as abuses have occurred; it takes time, centuries, for humans as a body to enter more fully and authentically into the light that Jesus shed, to be transformed, to blossom into beings who love as He does, to actually* heed and practice His words*, the words that they themselves preach.

But if Mr Rohr then extends that message to mean that loving one’s enemies equates to tolerating virtually any and all behavior, we have a problem. Is the Church being less loving by taking a strong pro-life and anti-contraception stance-or is she being more so? Is it wrong to distinguish between good and evil-and to seek to exclude evil from our presence? Isn’t that the purpose to begin with? Shouldn’t participation in the Eucharist involve a change in us, towards God and goodness and love and away from the opposites of those? Shouldn’t it stand to *mean *something when we partake, whether or not the majority of the partakers may be partaking hypocritically, perhaps having become too comfortable with the world and its often misplaced values? Weren’t the drunkards and tax collectors whom Jesus loved and mixed with still obliged to change their ways, to follow Him, to become new creations themselves? Yes, we’re to love first, but that doesn’t not mean we don’t identify sin as sin, and expect something better.

If Mr Rohr, OTOH, really doesn’t believe that abortion and contraception are sinful to begin with, then he needs to be honest and make that clear.

“A man of conscience, is one who never acquires tolerance, well- being, success, public standing, and approval on the part of prevailing opinion, at the expense of truth.” --Pope Benedict XVI
 
grannymh

Many Catholics did grow up learning about a vengeful God whom they had to appease to avoid burning for all eternity in hell. God’s love was conditional. Screw up before you get to a priest for Confession and plan on eternal damnation. This was false teaching, which Fr Rohr is trying to set straight.

Heck, the level of scrupulosity in this very forum shows this mindset about God still exist.

Not until people have a true experience with the love of Jesus Christ, will they be transformed.

Good Catholics follow the interpretation of the Church and the first chapters of Genesis are mostly allegorical and not to be taken literally. Science has proven that the literal interpretation puts a person in error and the Church agrees.

The point of Fr Rohr’s meditation concerning original sin, is that is what is taught first to Catholics, rather than the original blessing. In fact, we miss the original blessing in it all.

You can deny this, but it’s the reality of anyone who grew up in the Catholic Church before Vatican II came around.

But as I said above, even today, Catholics are focused more on their sins than on God’s love and mercy. Its why there is little joy in their hearts and why young people see nothing good in religion. For if they knew that they are forgiven and experience the love of Jesus Christ, they would be overwhelmed with joy and that joy would be transmitted to others.

Such is not the case for many. They live in fear and a level of scrupulosity that borders psychotic. This forum and other Catholic websites helps feed it, I’m sad to say.

People who suffer from scrupulosity would be better advised by their confessors to stay out of internet forums such as this, until they’ve had the experience of love from Jesus Christ which will transform’s.

Centered in Christ
Jim
Lots to share thank you.

To bring you up to date. The 1995 science bombshell has been successfully disputed within recent years.

Fortunately, I lived before Vatican II, when the facts found in the first three historical chapters of Genesis, were taught correctly to children. Unlike today, no one taught that Adam, Original Sin, the human species, and God were allegorical.

When I landed on CAF, I was totally surprised that only a few CAF participants
had a clue how the visible Catholic Church operates on earth. No wonder some authors/speakers get away with nonsense.

Granted, that one of the first things I was taught was Original Sin. This was immediately connected to Divinity of Jesus Christ.

By extension, logic, or common sense, what was learned in the now forgotten first three chapters of Genesis led directly to the true Catholic Church. No wonder some authors/speakers want to convince Catholics that they should change or update,
or rebuild. No one is interested in keeping the annoying doctrines that are embedded in allegory.

End of my rant.:o

If someone is interested in a a specific piece of Catholic teaching found in the now extinct first three “Catholicism” chapters of Genesis, I will do my best to answer.
 
Many Catholics did grow up learning about a vengeful God whom they had to appease to avoid burning for all eternity in hell. God’s love was conditional. Screw up before you get to a priest for Confession and plan on eternal damnation. This was false teaching, which Fr Rohr is trying to set straight.

Heck, the level of scrupulosity in this very forum shows this mindset about God still exist.

Not until people have a true experience with the love of Jesus Christ, will they be transformed.

Good Catholics follow the interpretation of the Church and the first chapters of Genesis are mostly allegorical and not to be taken literally. Science has proven that the literal interpretation puts a person in error and the Church agrees.

The point of Fr Rohr’s meditation concerning original sin, is that is what is taught first to Catholics, rather than the original blessing. In fact, we miss the original blessing in it all.

You can deny this, but it’s the reality of anyone who grew up in the Catholic Church before Vatican II came around.

But as I said above, even today, Catholics are focused more on their sins than on God’s love and mercy. Its why there is little joy in their hearts and why young people see nothing good in religion. For if they knew that they are forgiven and experience the love of Jesus Christ, they would be overwhelmed with joy and that joy would be transmitted to others.

Such is not the case for many. They live in fear and a level of scrupulosity that borders psychotic.

Centered in Christ
Jim
:clapping:
 
When Mr Rohr exhorts us to a closer walk with God, to be more faithful to the greatest commandments, to the beatitudes, to the gospel, who can argue? This has been the continuous message of saints and others down through the centuries. Renewal, as the Church teaches, is always necessary, an ongoing labor. We all need to love better but mentalities, based on the plain old concupiscence and selfishness and pride that are ever-present in human affairs, has often negatively influenced our relationships with God and neighbor. A misunderstanding- and suspicion even -of God and His love, based on the “distorted image” of Him that man first conceived at the Fall according to the catechism, lies at the heart of misguided behavior by Church members including leaders at times, along with a wrong emphasis within her teachings even though the teachings , themselves, are perfectly on target. For example, depending on our emphasis when teaching, God can come off primarily as vengeful, vindictive, and aloof or kind, loving, patient forgiving, etc.

But the Church has been addressing this issue better in the last 50 years than ever before IMO, even as abuses have occurred; it takes time, centuries, for humans as a body to enter more fully and authentically into the light that Jesus shed, to be transformed, to blossom into beings who love as He does, to actually* heed and practice His words*, the words that they themselves preach.

But if Mr Rohr then extends that message to mean that loving one’s enemies equates to tolerating virtually any and all behavior, we have a problem. Is the Church being less loving by taking a strong pro-life and anti-contraception stance-or is she being more so? Is it wrong to distinguish between good and evil-and to seek to exclude evil from our presence? Isn’t that the purpose to begin with? Shouldn’t participation in the Eucharist involve a change in us, towards God and goodness and love and away from the opposites of those? Shouldn’t it stand to *mean *something when we partake, whether or not the majority of the partakers may be partaking hypocritically, perhaps having become too comfortable with the world and its often misplaced values? Weren’t the drunkards and tax collectors whom Jesus loved and mixed with still obliged to change their ways, to follow Him, to become new creations themselves? Yes, we’re to love first, but that doesn’t not mean we don’t identify sin as sin, and expect something better.

If Mr Rohr, OTOH, really doesn’t believe that abortion and contraception are sinful to begin with, then he needs to be honest and make that clear.

“A man of conscience, is one who never acquires tolerance, well- being, success, public standing, and approval on the part of prevailing opinion, at the expense of truth.” --Pope Benedict XVI
I did a quick search to try and find out what Fr Rohr thinks about abortion/contraception, there wasn’t much only this :

myemail.constantcontact.com/Richard-Rohr-s-Daily-Meditations—New-Fundamentals–Are-a-Contradiction-in-Terms----Ecumenism----Father-s-Day–June-16–2013.html?soid=1103098668616&aid=Hfqy-qPpvFQ
 
But if Mr Rohr then extends that message to mean that loving one’s enemies equates to tolerating virtually any and all behavior, we have a problem.
Rest assured, he does not. Loving one’s enemies never means allowing or encouraging evil behaviors.
If Mr Rohr, OTOH, really doesn’t believe that abortion and contraception are sinful to begin with, then he needs to be honest and make that clear.
He is Catholic, and his moral beliefs are in line with the Church.

You would find his stance on many issues more in line with your own thinking than mine, friend. He is a great resource, and presents the Gospel in a way that respects tradition and incorporates the views of many Saints, especially from Franciscan tradition.
 
Rest assured, he does not. Loving one’s enemies never means allowing or encouraging evil behaviors.

He is Catholic, and his moral beliefs are in line with the Church.

You would find his stance on many issues more in line with your own thinking than mine, friend. He is a great resource, and presents the Gospel in a way that respects tradition and incorporates the views of many Saints, especially from Franciscan tradition.
Hmm…haven’t read or kept up with him for probably 15-25 years. But going by the OPs suggestion to comment on the video, those are the questions that would come up for me.
 
Yes, thank you. And that seemed to reveal a pretty shallow understanding of the faith, including biblical morality. Does Fr Rohr really think abortion is strictly a modern day concern, as if the Church would never have bothered addressing the issue if it became legalized in the past, which for* some *reason it wasn’t in Christian countries?
 
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