Role of Music in the Holy Mass.

[Usige]

To me, chant is as natural to the Mass as breathing.

That’s exactly as it should be. When I learned chant we were taught to think of it as sung speech. With chant I definitely feel like it is a sung prayer. Exactly what I feel is natural to the Mass.

I love music in the Mass… when it enhances the prayers. When it intrudes on prayer, that is where I get frustrated. For instance at Mass yesterday we had the “contemporary choir” (i.e. band) performing… err… leading the congregation. All during distribution of the Eucharist we were treated to thrumming electric bass lines, drum flourishes, and praise and worship style melodies and lyrics. That style of music during the Eucharist just seems to minimize and distract from the solemn sacrifice at the heart of the Eucharist. I find it very difficult to pray when I have over amped bass and guitar along with drum and symbols jangling my thoughts. What ever happened to sacred silence?

 

[Liturgy_Geek_1]

One of the biggest things about music in Mass that makes me crazy is the whole “performing” dynamic. I tell musicians “Its not about you.” I cantor regularly as Mass and I pray that the Lord will make me as stained glass window, that people will see through me to Him. Cantors need to be reminded that if they can’t hear the assembly sing, they are singing too loud.

 

[Cat]

That’s exactly as it should be. When I learned chant we were taught to think of it as sung speech. With chant I definitely feel like it is a sung prayer. Exactly what I feel is natural to the Mass.

I love music in the Mass… when it enhances the prayers. When it intrudes on prayer, that is where I get frustrated. For instance at Mass yesterday we had the “contemporary choir” (i.e. band) performing… err… leading the congregation. All during distribution of the Eucharist we were treated to thrumming electric bass lines, drum flourishes, and praise and worship style melodies and lyrics. That style of music during the Eucharist just seems to minimize and distract from the solemn sacrifice at the heart of the Eucharist. I find it very difficult to pray when I have over amped bass and guitar along with drum and symbols jangling my thoughts. What ever happened to sacred silence?

Because of the way I was raised (47 years evangelical Protestant), I find chant intrusive in prayers. To me, it seems weird and theatrical.

OTOH, again because of the way I was raised, I find that the thrumming bass lines, drums, and praise and worship style enhances my prayer and helps me to concentrate on the Lord Jesus.

I keep trying to like chant, but it’s been 8 years now and it still sets my teeth on edge. And although I love hymns (traditional and contemporary) and I love classical and baroque music, I still miss Christian rock music in Mass, and after 8 years, I have never been convinced by any Catholic that this style of music is inappropriate for the Holy Mass. I find it lofty and awe-inspiring.

 

[AthenaC]

I think that the Sister Act arrangement of *Hail Holy Queen *was quite nice, but the In The Garden made me worry that the dear departed would rise up from the casket and ask the musicians to please stop.

I think we need to be careful to be correct when using various music style terms like “jazz” or “rock” or “gospel.” It’s confusing otherwise. Music styles have particular traits, and just because a hymn was written after 1950, or just because we do not personally like a hymn does not make it a “jazz” hymn.

I agree - I thought the Sister Act arrangement was awesome. My mother thinks it’s “horrid,” but she can’t explain to me why, especially since it’s a great way to “trick” my more secular friends / toddlers into praying / singing to Our Blessed Mother. (where’s the devilish grin emoticon?)

Also, I laughed at the image of the “dear departed” temporarily re-animating to ask the musicians to stop.

And you are certainly correct regarding musical styles. I do get the feeling that you described common derogatory usage correctly.

I find that the thrumming bass lines, drums, and praise and worship style enhances my prayer and helps me to concentrate on the Lord Jesus.

I keep trying to like chant, but it’s been 8 years now and it still sets my teeth on edge. And although I love hymns (traditional and contemporary) and I love classical and baroque music, I still miss Christian rock music in Mass, and after 8 years, I have never been convinced by any Catholic that this style of music is inappropriate for the Holy Mass. I find it lofty and awe-inspiring.

I agree with you here, and I was raised Catholic. I have very fond memories of youth conferences - 1500 teens all singing “Shine Jesus Shine” or “Let the Fire Fall” clapping and all during the entrance procession of Mass. A.maz.ing.

What I don’t understand is why some people want to argue that one type of music or another is inherently “better” or “more worshipful,” “more sacred,” or what have you. Certain people seem to refuse to be content with thie idea that different people worship better with different types of music (and some people do better with no music at all), and that there is nothing that makes one person’s individual taste “better” or “wrong.”

 

[ByzCathCantor]

If music were primary, then the Mass should properly be termed a concert.

Acknowledging your point, I would respectfully note that hymnody and the Mass were closely associated since the Apostolic age, as noted in Scriptural accounts.

I would venture guess that you are speaking more of the modern usage of music in the Mass in your own Rite than the actually propriety of the use of hymnody in divine worship.

 

[ByzCathCantor]

Listening to the choirs of the Orthodox church, via Ancient Faith Radio, I’ve come to appreciate instrument free singing, and more so congregational singing. Like others here, I saw the mass becoming a mini concert, with potential to distract from what the real focus should be.

The Orthodox and Eastern Catholic traditions mostly rely on voice alone, and we believe that chant is a higher form of prayer - to use the well-known paraphrase often ascribed to St. Augustine, “when we sing we pray twice”.

While we have choral traditions, congregational singing is the norm for that very reason - chant is prayer, and the Liturgy is by and for all present.

As heaven and earth are drawn closer in the Divine Liturgy, we join the angelic choirs in singing their never-ending hymns of praise (does that sound familiar ?).

 

[maltmom]

For instance at Mass yesterday we had the “contemporary choir” (i.e. band) performing… err… leading the congregation. All during distribution of the Eucharist we were treated to thrumming electric bass lines, drum flourishes, and praise and worship style melodies and lyrics. That style of music during the Eucharist just seems to minimize and distract from the solemn sacrifice at the heart of the Eucharist. I find it very difficult to pray when I have over amped bass and guitar along with drum and symbols jangling my thoughts. What ever happened to sacred silence?

Were you at Mass with me yesterday? No, wait we didn’t have symbols. I thought after receiving the Eucharist we were to return, kneel and pray. I was “informed” in no uncertain terms in another thread that this was not a time of private prayer and contemplation, but a time when all are to be singing the communion hymn.

 

[revert_jen]

The Orthodox and Eastern Catholic traditions mostly rely on voice alone, and we believe that chant is a higher form of prayer - to use the well-known paraphrase often ascribed to St. Augustine, “when we sing we pray twice”.

Just my thought, but one reason for this may be that when we sing, we spend more time with the words. If you said a prayer as slowly as you can sing it, you’d feel like an idiot.

I love chant. But I have been spoiled by first encountering chant as a music student, and then by belonging to a parish that is very experienced with and good at singing chant. I went to a parish in another diocese recently when I was on vacation, and it was my first experience of really bad chant. The cantor was singing it alone, so it really stood out. She was accenting every beat and the rhythm was rigidly straight, not even a tiny bit fluid. She was singing chant like it were Onward, Christian Soldiers or a Souza march. (I actually like Onward, Christian Soldiers, although not so much at Mass. But that is not the point. You don’t sing a country song like it’s opera, and you don’t sing chant like a march.) It was distracting, sort of (I don’t know) inorganic feeling?

It helped me a bit in understanding people who don’t like chant. But I still think it’s sad that you could be a cantor at a Catholic Church without having any idea what chant should sound like.

–Jen

 

[ByzCathCantor]

I still think it’s sad that you could be a cantor at a Catholic Church without having any idea what chant should sound like.

Again, on the Eastern side of the fence, chant primarily supports congregational singing. The cantor merely starts things off. Interestingly enough, even if there are a few really bad voices in the crowd, it always works when the congregation is fully engaged. It should never boil down to a soloist endeavor.

 

[SMHW]

Just my thought, but one reason for this may be that when we sing, we spend more time with the words. If you said a prayer as slowly as you can sing it, you’d feel like an idiot.

Music has an emotional/spiritual component that words along don’t convey. That scares some people

I love chant. But I have been spoiled by first encountering chant as a music student, and then by belonging to a parish that is very experienced with and good at singing chant. I went to a parish in another diocese recently when I was on vacation, and it was my first experience of really bad chant.
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It helped me a bit in understanding people who don’t like chant.

I doubt it is the only reason some people don’t like chant or can’t chant but I can’t help but think that one of the problems is building materials used. Chant done well has a certain ringing quality. But unless the persons singing are exceptionally talented you don’t hear that reverberation in so many of today’s sound-sucking church buildings. I don’t know that it is intentionally done but I think many modern church buildings are more acoustically suited for band instruments than they are for voice and organ.

 

[revert_jen]

Again, on the Eastern side of the fence, chant primarily supports congregational singing. The cantor merely starts things off. Interestingly enough, even if there are a few really bad voices in the crowd, it always works when the congregation is fully engaged. It should never boil down to a soloist endeavor.

Very true. That’s how we do it–sometimes just the choir, but usually everybody. And it wasn’t that she was a bad singer; she had a pretty nice voice. It was just the technique that was sadly lacking. I don’t really think it would be possible for a whole congregation to sing the way she was singing, anyway. It’s hard enough to get a large group to accent the notes even when they are singing a march-like song.

–Jen

 

[Martin15]

That’s very strange–I consider *Shine Jesus Shine *written by Graham Kendrick (this is the hymn you’re referring to, right?) a modern hymn written in a traditional style.

There is nothing in the hymn that would make it a “jazz” hymn–no blue notes or chords, very little syncopated rhythm, no “swing” rhythm, no “improv.” The rhythm is written in a staid 4/4, almost a march, but usually it is sung slowly (too slowly IMO–it would be difficult to march so slowly unless the unit is marching at a funeral procession).

The words to the hymn are quite deep and stirring and certainly not trite or inclusive. I read through them just now and see nothing troubling for Catholics in the theology.

I think we need to be careful to be correct when using various music style terms like “jazz” or “rock” or “gospel.” It’s confusing otherwise. Music styles have particular traits, and just because a hymn was written after 1950, or just because we do not personally like a hymn does not make it a “jazz” hymn.

Apologies for my use of the phrase ‘jazz it up’ - in the UK that phrase simply means to change something in order to make it more interesting (or at least to widen its appeal). For example to add a spoiler to a car would be to ‘jazz up’ the aforementioned car. It was not intended to imply that Shine Jesus Shine used the Jazz style of music.

It is not the words to Shine Jesus Shine that I have an issue with, and I don’t even mind it being used at mass; but I came through a catholic school in this country where it was sung at every mass, and now that I am a teacher I find that it is still overly used in the school I am now in. Thinking about the reason why it is so wide-spread in school (and other youth) masses the only conclusion I could come to is that someone has thought ‘kids like lively music, let’s use a lively hymn to make them interested’. The idea actually came up in our chaplaincy meeting before our Christmas mass of teaching the choir (who also seem to be limited to exclusively happy-clappy music in the style of a baptist choir) the alma redemptoris mater for them to sing during/after the mass; it was considered too ‘traditional’.

So hopefully I’ve made it clear that I’m not against modern hymns (provided the words are theologically and dogmatically sound), but I am a little soured towards their overuse as a way of trying to interest people in the mass - the mysteries involved in the mass should be interesting enough, and if they aren’t (such as for school children) then people clearly are not appreciating them fully.

All the best

Martin

P.S. The schools I am referring to are secondary schools - 11 to 18 year olds; primary schools (5 to 11) may be a different matter.

 

[Cat]

Just my thought, but one reason for this may be that when we sing, we spend more time with the words. If you said a prayer as slowly as you can sing it, you’d feel like an idiot.

I love chant. But I have been spoiled by first encountering chant as a music student, and then by belonging to a parish that is very experienced with and good at singing chant. I went to a parish in another diocese recently when I was on vacation, and it was my first experience of really bad chant. The cantor was singing it alone, so it really stood out. She was accenting every beat and the rhythm was rigidly straight, not even a tiny bit fluid. She was singing chant like it were Onward, Christian Soldiers or a Souza march. (I actually like Onward, Christian Soldiers, although not so much at Mass. But that is not the point. You don’t sing a country song like it’s opera, and you don’t sing chant like a march.) It was distracting, sort of (I don’t know) inorganic feeling?

It helped me a bit in understanding people who don’t like chant. But I still think it’s sad that you could be a cantor at a Catholic Church without having any idea what chant should sound like.

–Jen

Oh, I know well what chant should sound like. At the recommendation of many of the posters on this forum, I have listened to many many chants and even purchased chant CDs. I’ve heard chant at various parishes and shrines. I have helped young people to learn chant (by playing the piano for them while they are learning).

I can’t warm up to it. I accept that it is the “traditiona” music style of the Catholic Church. I accept that others like it, and I respect their preference and rejoice with them when their parish uses chant.

But I truly dislike it–like I said earlier–“sets my teeth on edge.” I would not be a happy person if my parish began using chant as the “majority” musical style in the Masses. Thankfully, that isn’t likely, and it isn’t necessary, as we have a Latin Mass parish in our city and we also have a monastery that offers Mass, so people who long for chant can get it in abundance.

 

[AthenaC]

It is not the words to Shine Jesus Shine that I have an issue with, and I don’t even mind it being used at mass; but I came through a catholic school in this country where it was sung at every mass, and now that I am a teacher I find that it is still overly used in the school I am now in. Thinking about the reason why it is so wide-spread in school (and other youth) masses the only conclusion I could come to is that someone has thought ‘kids like lively music, let’s use a lively hymn to make them interested’.

Oh I see. Yes I totally agree on overusing a particular song(s). That’s a horrible crime as it leads people to disdain perfectly lovely songs.

Of course, such crimes are not limited to contemporary songs. In the church I grew up in, there was no concept of: 1) the appropriate musical use of the organ; and 2) appropriate songs for particular parts of the Mass. For example, for at least a year, during almost every Communion, the song was “Take My Hand, Precious Lord.” (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Take_My_Hand,_Precious_Lord) Yes, let’s sing a funeral song during Communion - because that’s appropriate! /sarcasm off. Not only is it a dreadful song, but it was an overused dreadful song.

 

[pnewton]

Dan Schutte clown car music assaults the ears in every part of the Mass…

Hmm. I like some of Dan Schutte’s work and most Catholics I know do. I think it is a little unfair to call it clown car music. Would you want other people belittling what you do in such terms?

 

[Usige]

Hmm. I like some of Dan Schutte’s work and most Catholics I know do. I think it is a little unfair to call it clown car music. Would you want other people belittling what you do in such terms?

Okay, I know plenty of people that love twinkies. Does that mean we should all eat a steady diet of twinkies? No. Why because they are not good for you. There are plenty of Catholics that love birth control, but should we all eschew 2000 years of tradition and Church teaching just because alot of people like it?

Personally I tried playing some of Schutte and Landry’s music on piano and on a recorder. Sounded more appropriate on the recorder. Go figure.

Why is it that people who do not feel moved by stuff written by Schutte, Landry, and others of that genre are essentially told “too bad, you don’t like it, go elsewhere.”? I am sure there are also a number of people that like traditional hymns but those fall on deaf ears.

Let me give you an example. For the Feast of the Assumption the choir sang Carey Landry’s “Hail Mary, Gentle Woman.” I say the choir sang, because of the 100 people at that mass I would say maybe 15 - 20 people were singing. Last Saturday I was at a conference that had mass before lunch. There were maybe 70 - 80 people there and the recessional was “Hail, Holy Queen Enthroned Above.” At that mass I would say 90% of the people were singing with good volume and on key. The amazing thing was that there were no hymnals, no lyric sheets, no piano, and no choir. This was pointed out to the music director and his response was “Well no one likes the old hymns, they prefer ones that they are familiar with.” What!?!?!?!?

For all those that say the congregation loves the stuff from 1970 - 1990 when did you last take a parish music survey? How do you know that people prefer Schutte to Schubert? I’ll tell you there are at least 12 people in my parish that I personally know can sing, but refuse to join the choirs. Why? Because they know they cannot joyfully sing songs that leave them feeling dead inside. Given that the 5 choirs at our parish average between 3 and 9 people that’s a good number of voices that are being disdained.

If there are people that like Landry, fine let them sing it, but don’t make every Mass a show of more banal music.

As for belittling people. I took a year of music theory. My first 3 or 4 compositions had comments like “Complex harmonies, but lacking in soul,” “Good overall tone to start, but wooden and pedestrian ending.” Did I rail at my music theory teacher? Nope. He made me realize that just because I could put notes and lyrics to paper did not mean that I would be a master composer. Some people are born to compose and some aren’t, Same with things from OCP. Just because someone gets published doesn’t mean we should praise it as the best thing since sliced bread.

 

[revert_jen]

As for belittling people. I took a year of music theory. My first 3 or 4 compositions had comments like “Complex harmonies, but lacking in soul,” “Good overall tone to start, but wooden and pedestrian ending.”

I had three years of music theory, but I still never had a teacher call a composition “clown car music.” I agree with most of your post, but perhaps people would prefer words like banal and jingly to “clown car.” It doesn’t make the music any better, but it sounds more respectful.

–Jen

 

[Cat]

Okay, I know plenty of people that love twinkies. Does that mean we should all eat a steady diet of twinkies? No. Why because they are not good for you. There are plenty of Catholics that love birth control, but should we all eschew 2000 years of tradition and Church teaching just because alot of people like it?

It is a sin to use artifical birth control. It is not a sin to sing a contemporary hymn. I think the comparison is sort of like comparing swatting a fly with killing a person. Not in the same league.

Personally I tried playing some of Schutte and Landry’s music on piano and on a recorder. Sounded more appropriate on the recorder. Go figure.

Why is it that people who do not feel moved by stuff written by Schutte, Landry, and others of that genre are essentially told “too bad, you don’t like it, go elsewhere.”? I am sure there are also a number of people that like traditional hymns but those fall on deaf ears.

Are they really told, “too bad, you don’t like it, go elsewhere?” Have YOU been told that? Is that common?

I’ve never heard such a thing. Although I love a lot of the contemporary music, I would never tell anyone, “Go elsewhere.”

You realize that people like me who do not like Gregorian chant are also told, “too bad.” And those people are absolutely correct. I fully realize that whether I like it or not, Gregorian chant is the traditional music of the Catholic Church and for this reason alone, deserves to be used more than it is used, and deserves my courteous respect whether I enjoy it or not. I think it’s OK for me to say, “Gregorian chant sets my teeth on edge,” because this is my personal reaction. But I don’t think it would be OK for me to say, “Gregorian chant sounds like caterwauling cats” because I am belittling this traditional Catholic music form.

Let me give you an example. For the Feast of the Assumption the choir sang Carey Landry’s “Hail Mary, Gentle Woman.” I say the choir sang, because of the 100 people at that mass I would say maybe 15 - 20 people were singing. Last Saturday I was at a conference that had mass before lunch. There were maybe 70 - 80 people there and the recessional was “Hail, Holy Queen Enthroned Above.” At that mass I would say 90% of the people were singing with good volume and on key. The amazing thing was that there were no hymnals, no lyric sheets, no piano, and no choir. This was pointed out to the music director and his response was “Well no one likes the old hymns, they prefer ones that they are familiar with.” What!?!?!?!?

For all those that say the congregation loves the stuff from 1970 - 1990 when did you last take a parish music survey? How do you know that people prefer Schutte to Schubert? I’ll tell you there are at least 12 people in my parish that I personally know can sing, but refuse to join the choirs. Why? Because they know they cannot joyfully sing songs that leave them feeling dead inside. Given that the 5 choirs at our parish average between 3 and 9 people that’s a good number of voices that are being disdained.

If there are people that like Landry, fine let them sing it, but don’t make every Mass a show of more banal music.

And our parish wasn’t like yours. At the very crowded Mass that I attended last week for the Feast of the Assumpion of the Blessed Mother, people sang quitely nicely when the hymn was “Hail Mary, Gentle Woman.” I love that song. We also sang “Hail Holy Queen Enthroned Above” and people sang that one well, too. I think our people just like the Marian hymns!

(Or perhaps the “Hail Holy Queen” is familiar to people because they watched Whoopi Goldberg conduct it in Sister Act.)

You have taken a survey! I would love to see the results. I think it would be interesting for a diocese to take a systematic poll of music preferences among the faithful, but I’m sure even then, it would not be a totally accurate representation. I’m guessing a lot of people just really don’t care what the music is. But I still think it would be worthwhile.

However, again, it doesn’t really matter what people like or dislike. The Catholic Church allows quite a variety of music in the Mass, thank goodness.

As for belittling people. I took a year of music theory. My first 3 or 4 compositions had comments like “Complex harmonies, but lacking in soul,” “Good overall tone to start, but wooden and pedestrian ending.” Did I rail at my music theory teacher? Nope. He made me realize that just because I could put notes and lyrics to paper did not mean that I would be a master composer. Some people are born to compose and some aren’t, Same with things from OCP. Just because someone gets published doesn’t mean we should praise it as the best thing since sliced bread.

I think that what we all need to keep in mind is that the various hymnals in our parishes are approved by the bishop, and also by our parish pastor and priests, and to make fun of what these men have allowed doesn’t seem respectful.

Oh, I know, I know–the bishop doesn’t go through all the hymns and listen to recordings and study their theology. I’m sure that in most dioceses, the bishop merely glances at the names of the publishers and says, “This hymnal is OK.” And I agree that it would be nice if the bishops would be able to take the time to systematically go through all the hymns in the Gather Hymnal and perhaps weed out a few. (That hymnal is way too heavy!) However, that seems like a low priority item for their crowded agenda.

But the fact is, the bishop and priests have said that the hymnals are “OK,” and we should probably all try to accept their ruling.

 

[whipp711]

Hmm. I like some of Dan Schutte’s work and most Catholics I know do. I think it is a little unfair to call it clown car music. Would you want other people belittling what you do in such terms?

You are right. I am most uncharitable and harsh. Let me rephrase…instead of clown car, how about Broadway show tunes. Yes, that’s much better.

 

[Cat]

You are right. I am most uncharitable and harsh. Let me rephrase…instead of clown car, how about Broadway show tunes. Yes, that’s much better.

I will be honest with you, and I hope that my honesty is helpful to you.

If you tell me that a piece of music sounds like 'clown car" music, and then change your mind and say, “No, it doesn’t sound like clown car music, it sounds like Broadway show tunes,”–

…sorry to tell you this, but my reaction would be to disregard pretty much everything you say about music because it would be obvious to me that you don’t know much about music.

It would sound to me like you were just pulling various secular musical styles out of the air and randomly applying them to Mass music that you don’t happen to like.

You see, there is a gargantuan difference between “clown car” music and “Broadway show tunes.” A song simply CAN’T sound like both “clown car” music AND “Broadway show tunes” unless it’s from a circus musical like Barnum. Yes, both styles have “notes” and “rhythm” and “meter” and other musical mechanics. But the two musical genres are completely different!

Does that make sense to you? I hope I’m making this understandable.

Here’s my suggestion–just say, “I don’t like the music.”

People can’t argue with your “feelings” about music (although they will try!). Your feelings and your personal opinions about music are perfectly valid and deserve respect.