Role of Music in the Holy Mass.

[OraLabora]

Well, music is part of liturgy. If we look at the structure of the Mass, the antiphons and hymns are generally all taken from scriptural verses, in particular (but not exclusively) the psalms. In Gregorian chant, the entrance antiphon, the gradual response, the alleluia verse, the offertory and the communion antiphon are almost always scripture-based, and that includes for the Ordinary Form Mass.

As choristers, we are taught that the Word has pride of place in chant, and the melody’s purpose is to sustain the Word and set the character of the particular verse being chanted.

Non-scriptural hymns do have some history in the Mass, but more so in the Divine Office where the hymn was essentially a brief bit of theology set to a melody.

The antiphons chanted at Mass are uniquely tied to each specific Mass and its scripture readings. This gives the Proper chants of the Mass a specific role in upholding and accenting the lessons of that Mass. This is what makes the proper chants of each Mass extremely relevant. For instance last Sunday’s Gregorian antiphon was Qui Manducat, taken verbatim from the Gospel reading from John for that day. The introit, from Ps. 83 and Gradual, from Ps. 117, were psalms of confidence in God and desire to reside in God’s house. The Alleluia verse was from John, the offertory from Ps. 33 (O taste and see that the Lord is good; How blessed is the man who takes refuge in Him!).

This is one area where modern hymns tend to depart, their character doesn’t always seem so uniquely attached to the specific Mass of the day. Their selection tends to be more whimsical.

The project for simple English propers (and other vernacular chanted propers, with my special interest being French as it’s my mother tongue) thus is, IMHO, a very important and necessary project to bring the music’s focus back to the Mass of the day and its lessons and refocusing on the Word, in a manner that’s easy for a fairly inexperienced schola or choir to grasp.

At least that’s my take…

 

[pnewton]

Okay, I know plenty of people that love twinkies. Does that mean we should all eat a steady diet of twinkies? No. Why because they are not good for you. There are plenty of Catholics that love birth control, but should we all eschew 2000 years of tradition and Church teaching just because alot of people like it?.

The difference is that a matter of musical taste does not make something junk food and it darn sure doesn’t make it sinful. That is a terrible and inappropriate analogy. I agree that people who do not like this music should be told to take a hike, or that any genre should be over-used in most parishes. I think some traditional parishes would work well with 100% chant. Other than that, I think varitety works best and best encompasses the word “catholic”.

 

[SMHW]

You are right. I am most uncharitable and harsh. Let me rephrase…instead of clown car, how about Broadway show tunes. Yes, that’s much better.

Actually I would agree that many (but certainly not all) musical pieces that you see in modern hymnals have something of a show tunes character. But of course there is considerable variety in show tunes.

 

[pnewton]

For all those that say the congregation loves the stuff from 1970 - 1990 when did you last take a parish music survey? .

About eight years ago. Many of the songs from the GIA and OCP composers were among the most liked. Also ranking high were eighteenth and nineteenth century hymns.

BTW - “Here I Am” was one of the top ten.

 

[pnewton]

Some people are born to compose and some aren’t, Same with things from OCP. Just because someone gets published doesn’t mean we should praise it as the best thing since sliced bread.

I think even more relevant with these composers is that just because they can compose some really great music does not mean everything they touch is golden. I think the best example is the rather prolific Marty Haugen. I find most of his hymns to be rather forced. Yet since he is a staff writer, his copyrights are paid already and it makes it into the hymnal. Yet even then I find some true gems, a couple maybe, that I like to use. In particular, My Soul in Stillness Waits, fills an Advent niche very well, both in words and mood.

 

[Usige]

The difference is that a matter of musical taste does not make something junk food and it darn sure doesn’t make it sinful. That is a terrible and inappropriate analogy. I agree that people who do not like this music should be told to take a hike, or that any genre should be over-used in most parishes. I think some traditional parishes would work well with 100% chant. Other than that, I think varitety works best and best encompasses the word “catholic”.

My point was just because something is popular does not make it good. Based on the reasoning that many Catholics like Dan Schutte that his work is good is an *ad populum *logical fallacy. Just because something is not a sin does not automatically make it good. The statement about ABC was to drive home the point that just because many people like something does not automatically make it okay. That’s the same reasoning that leads to people who think if it’s not expressly forbidden then it must be okay to do.

About eight years ago. Many of the songs from the GIA and OCP composers were among the most liked. Also ranking high were eighteenth and nineteenth century hymns.

BTW - “Here I Am” was one of the top ten.

I am assuming you are referring to The Tablet poll done in 2004 or 2005. I seem to remember it also included “Shine, Jesus, Shine” and “Christ, be our light” (two more of my list of the hymns that make me weep [and no, not for their beauty]). It might be that OCP and GIA have such high rankings because their music is the only thing in something like 70% - 80% of parishes. Most people in the pew might know the names of 5 - 10 hymns. If “Here I am, Lord” and “one Bread, One Body” are performed once every 3 - 4 weeks, I’m guessing that would be one of the ones someone responds with. (Yes, Cat I know you LOVE “Here I am, Lord”). You fail to mention that “Here I am, Lord” is also often voted as one of the most hated hymns.

I seem to remember that The Tablet poll also included “Let all mortal flesh keep silence” and “Praise to the Holiest in the height” in their top 20 and yet how often are these hymns selected for Mass? Can’t say I’ve heard or seen them listed for Mass in recent memory. Even when they are used they get pulled out once or twice a year. Compared that to OCP pieces which makes up a good 80% of all songs sung in most parishes I’ve been to. My daughter can walk in see 527 or 494 on the hymn board and says “Dad’s going to have a bad day.” The Funny thing is that “Let all mortal flesh keep silence” is in “Breaking Bread” and not once was it sung in or parish before the music director switched to “The Heritage Missal” which doesn’t include it from what I can tell.

While I dislike the music my problem is more the watered down theology represented in many of these hymns. The 2 most heard communion hymns in my parish? “Taste and See” and “One Bread, one Body”. My issue is that neither of these hymns once mention the Body and Blood of Christ. “One Bread, one Body” in particular bothers me with the line “one cup of blessing which we bless.” (emphasis mine) Uh… the cup is blessed by the priest, not by we, the people.Compare that to "Soul of my savior"Soul of my Saviour, sanctify my breast;
Body of Christ, be Thou my saving guest;
Blood of my Saviour, bathe me in Thy tide,
Wash me with water flowing from Thy side.
I’ll admit I am not a fan of the rhyming, but at least it is theologically full of the truth of the Eucharist. Also it is about the intimate connection we have with Christ rather than “One Bread, one Body” that focuses on the people.

My feeling is most of the song selection is done to reinforce the “rainbows and unicorns” feel good vision of our good buddy, Christ. “I don’t want to sing ‘Let all mortal flesh keep silence, and with fear and trembling stand’, It’s so depressing. Jesus loves us (this I know) and he won’t let any of us go to hell.” No one wants to talk about the sacrifice of the Mass. No one wants to stand in silence and awe that Christ would allow himself to hang on the cross for our sins. We don’t want to remember that the Mass links us to what we did (and still do) to our Lord at Calvary. Instead lets sing upbeat songs about how we are saved and how great we are (umm… protestant anyone?). I think the song choices directly impact the lack of reverence so many people show at the foot of the altar.

I am not talking about Masses with 100% Latin chant. I am not asking that Haugen, Landry, Foley, et all are banished (though I wouldn’t shed a tear if they were). I merely ask that one Mass each week not be polluted with contemporary hymns. I am willing to put my money where my mouth is (i.e. purchase the hymnals, form the choir, rehearse and direct it if needed), but alas “that’s not the type of parish we are.” Hymns that lift your soul, no thanks, but feel free to join a choir where the songs leave you feeling dead inside.

 

[jmjconder]

**If there were no music at Mass would you still go? Even on a Sunday?

YES ~ music is not the end all and be all of Mass. Why do so many place it as a major issue for their “experience?”**

 

[pnewton]

My point was just because something is popular does not make it good. Based on the reasoning that many Catholics like Dan Schutte that his work is good is an *ad populum *logical fallacy.

I think your whole poll was based on a faulty assumption. I am talking about a poll I did, at my parish, for our benefit only. So there is not as populum fallacy. It was done to measure opinion, not make any theological statement. Sorry for all the work you did

My issue is that neither of these hymns once mention the Body and Blood of Christ. “One Bread, one Body” in particular bothers me with the line “one cup of blessing which **we **bless.”

In light of the verses, I would rather think that “we” was used in the distributive sense, thinking of the universal Church, not everyone in the parish.

I agree with what you say about over usage. Here is what I do. I call it the procrastination pile method. I remove the hymns as I use them at Mass from a looseleafe and pile them up after I am done. Once every two or three months, I go through and put them all back in order. That way, as I am going through the music selection I do not select recently used hymns. I think there are two big errors. One being the one you say, overuse. The other is having new songs every week. No one sings new hymns for a while. My current list of hymns is about 150. Some are definitely once a year (e.g., For All the Saints)

 

[revert_jen]

**If there were no music at Mass would you still go? Even on a Sunday?

YES ~ music is not the end all and be all of Mass. Why do so many place it as a major issue for their “experience?”**

Understood, but some of us pray better with music.

Once, I ended up all by myself at Adoration. (I think I had ended up with the 3am-4am slot and the other person hadn’t showed up.) About a half an hour in, I sang the chant for Ave Verum Corpus there alone with Jesus. It was a great blessing and a very intense experience for me. It wouldn’t have been the same just reciting it.

I understand that music isn’t that way for everyone, but it is for some, and that’s why we get all het up about it. Of course I would fulfill my Mass obligation regardless of whether there was music or not. But I would also drive quite a ways to find a parish where there was music that helped me pray better.

–Jen

 

[Usige]

**If there were no music at Mass would you still go? Even on a Sunday?

YES ~ music is not the end all and be all of Mass. Why do so many place it as a major issue for their “experience?”**

I would go to mass regardless, but if it’s a choice of what is played in most parishes and no music, I’d gladly go for no music.

Some people don’t care about music, but as revert_jen mentioned, for others it is hard wired into how we think and pray. I almost always have some song playing in the back of my head. If external music doesn’t match my internal music it throws off my thoughts.

Imagine if you will that you are walking along a tight rope. Each step you take sets a certain rhythm into the rope. Your steps are in tune with the oscillation of the rope. Now have someone else start walking from the other end with a different step. it’s possible that their step meshes with yours. This is harmony. It’s possible that their steps actually enhance and add to your steps. This would be a harmonic. But now if their steps conflict with your steps, it can knock you off the rope. This is dissonance and dissonance causes tension. If the tension is not resolved it leaves one on edge.

Imagine this going on in your head through all of the Mass (upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8a/Minor_second_on_C.mid). Hearing most contemporary music when I’m praying is like having a garbage truck with it’s backup buzzer going off while trying to listen to a choir of angels. If you can pray with that going on in your head, great. For me it literally gives me a headache and actually makes me feel nauseous.

 

[whipp711]

If you tell me that a piece of music sounds like 'clown car" music, and then change your mind and say, “No, it doesn’t sound like clown car music, it sounds like Broadway show tunes,”–

…sorry to tell you this, but my reaction would be to disregard pretty much everything you say about music because it would be obvious to me that you don’t know much about music.

Eh, all state bass clarinet (classical music) and baritone sax (stage band) for over ten years. But you’d be correct that I’m only a layman with regards to voice and hymns.

It would sound to me like you were just pulling various secular musical styles out of the air and randomly applying them to Mass music that you don’t happen to like.

Very true.

You see, there is a gargantuan difference between “clown car” music and “Broadway show tunes.” A song simply CAN’T sound like both “clown car” music AND “Broadway show tunes” unless it’s from a circus musical like Barnum. Yes, both styles have “notes” and “rhythm” and “meter” and other musical mechanics. But the two musical genres are completely different!

Please understand, I tend to be whimsical, cynical, and whacky in my statements. No need to underestimate my understanding of musical nuances.

Does that make sense to you? I hope I’m making this understandable.

Makes perfect sense. Really.

Here’s my suggestion–just say, “I don’t like the music.”

How about I just say Schutte’s music reminds me of Barry Manilow Coke or Pepsi commericals?

People can’t argue with your “feelings” about music (although they will try!). Your feelings and your personal opinions about music are perfectly valid and deserve respect.

Okay, you’re right. I don’t like the music from a traditional perspective (opinion and feeling) that I fully own up to.

 

[Bookcat]

scepterpublishers.org/product/index.php?FULL=755

I do not have a copy yet --but looks like it would interesting

and The Spirit of the Liturgy from Ignatius is excellent!

 

[Chorister1980]

BTW - I never clap at the end of Mass to applaud the music. Do you?

I have never heard of applause at the end of the mass for the musicians, ever.

I have sung at Mass, weddings, funerals for many years now and have only once been applauded, at a Church of Scotland wedding after singing during the signing of the register…frankly I was embarrassed.

We as a choir are there to enhance the liturgy.

I can sing and I use the gift God gave me in the most appropriate way I can think of.

 

[maltmom]

I have never heard of applause at the end of the mass for the musicians, ever.

Come to the chapel I attend one Sunday. This past Sunday is the 1st Sunday I remember that no one clapped. The chapel was packed with students returning to the university.

 

[grasscutter]

Hmm. I like some of Dan Schutte’s work and most Catholics I know do. I think it is a little unfair to call it clown car music. Would you want other people belittling what you do in such terms?

Thank you for being a voice of Christian charity. I always wonder what if the people (or relatives of) being disparaged were on these forums. If I was one, my feelings would be hurt. And, with all the evil in our world, it’s interesting to me that so much energy and emotion is put into the hymns, instruments, etc. at Mass.

 

[whipp711]

Thank you for being a voice of Christian charity. I always wonder what if the people (or relatives of) being disparaged were on these forums. If I was one, my feelings would be hurt. And, with all the evil in our world, it’s interesting to me that so much energy and emotion is put into the hymns, instruments, etc. at Mass.

Hmmmm…Christian charity and pious’ness strips the English language of most adjectives and discriptors. I will graciously agree that my singling out Schutte to be unfair. I could have a courteous discuss with Dan, voice my objectives, and find a common ground. At least I’d try.

Would it be more charitable if I said I find that music style to be banal and lacking depth? This contemporary style of worship is heavily influenced by popular music. Again, personal opinion, and I don’t begrudge anyone who likes it. To each their own. Peace.

 

[AnneTeresa]

I had to look and see if this was in the Traditional forum after seeing some of the responses.

I love, love, love music at mass. (of course I love music anywhere) It definitely enhances it for me and I pray the songs most of the time (some lend themselves to prayer more than others).

Of course I would go to mass without music, but I would miss it. Naturally, I would adjust.

It seems some people take their own personal preferences and decide that they are more “holy” or more “appropriate” than other people’s preferences. Let’s just admit if we like or don’t like a certain kind of music.

Oh, and people clap after mass where I go. I think they are just happy and feeling blessed by a wonderful mass.

 

[revert_jen]

Oh, and people clap after mass where I go. I think they are just happy and feeling blessed by a wonderful mass.

As a member of the choir, I really wish they wouldn’t. You never know whether they are clapping for the music, even though you can hope they aren’t. Some of them make it relatively clear that they are, though. It’s meant to be kind, but it’s extremely embarrassing. If our singing makes them think of us, we’re doing it wrong. Nobody AFAIK applauds God. It would be weird. So when people clap for the music, they think they are being kind, but really they’re telling us (without knowing it) “you have failed in your goal to use music to lead people closer to God. All you’ve made people think about is you and the music.”

I think it’s possible to feel happy and blessed without clapping. I’m glad I’m no longer in a parish where people clap after Mass.

–Jen

 

[grasscutter]

Hmmmm…Christian charity and pious’ness strips the English language of most adjectives and discriptors. I will graciously agree that my singling out Schutte to be unfair. I could have a courteous discuss with Dan, voice my objectives, and find a common ground. At least I’d try.

Would it be more charitable if I said I find that music style to be banal and lacking depth? This contemporary style of worship is heavily influenced by popular music. Again, personal opinion, and I don’t begrudge anyone who likes it. To each their own. Peace.

Actually, since you asked, it would be more charitable if you didn’t offer criticism in the first place. And I acknowledge and respect your right to do so anyway. Peace be with you, too!