"Roma locuta est" and ecumenism

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Peter_J

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“Roma locuta est, causa finita est” (“Rome has spoken, case is closed”).

(For the record, I know St Augustine didn’t actually say that but rather “jam enim de hac causa duo concilia missa sunt ad sedem apostolicam; inde etiam rescripta venerunt; causa finita est” (which roughly translate to: “there are two councils, for now this matter as brought to the Apostolic See, whence also letters are come to pass, the case was finished”) in response to the heretical Pelagianism of the time.)

But the point I’d like to make here: if even the pope thinks that ecumenism is a good thing, shouldn’t that be enough? How is it that tons of Catholics here are so very unecumenical-minded? It just doesn’t make sense to me.
 
Peter_J said:
“Roma locuta est, causa finita est” (“Rome has spoken, case is closed”).

(For the record, I know St Augustine didn’t actually say that but rather “jam enim de hac causa duo concilia missa sunt ad sedem apostolicam; inde etiam rescripta venerunt; causa finita est” (which roughly translate to: “there are two councils, for now this matter as brought to the Apostolic See, whence also letters are come to pass, the case was finished”) in response to the heretical Pelagianism of the time.)

But the point I’d like to make here: if even the pope thinks that ecumenism is a good thing, shouldn’t that be enough? How is it that tons of Catholics here are so very unecumenical-minded? It just doesn’t make sense to me.
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Perhaps, then, Peter, you are suggesting that Catholics leave ecumenism to the pope and his Cardinals?
Jon
 
I’m not feeling very bright today - I’m afraid I don’t understand your question. Are you critical of ecumenism? Or of people who aren’t ecumenical? :confused:
 
Peter_J said:
But the point I’d like to make here: if even the pope thinks that ecumenism is a good thing, shouldn’t that be enough? How is it that tons of Catholics here are so very unecumenical-minded? It just doesn’t make sense to me.
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What makes you think that “tons of Catholics here are so very unecumenical-minded”?
 
Peter_J said:
How is it that tons of Catholics here are so very unecumenical-minded? It just doesn’t make sense to me.
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Is there a source we can look for your opinion? Or is it just personal observation?
 
Ecumenism needs to be tempered with reason. We can’t all just pretend that every person who calls himself a Christian is someone we should be associating with. I think the mistake people make with ecumenism is the assumption that it’s all about glossing over differences or just not talking about them. Ecumenism is about bringing the Church together - on the right principles.
 
Peter_J said:
“Roma locuta est, causa finita est” (“Rome has spoken, case is closed”).

(For the record, I know St Augustine didn’t actually say that but rather “jam enim de hac causa duo concilia missa sunt ad sedem apostolicam; inde etiam rescripta venerunt; causa finita est” (which roughly translate to: “there are two councils, for now this matter as brought to the Apostolic See, whence also letters are come to pass, the case was finished”) in response to the heretical Pelagianism of the time.)

But the point I’d like to make here: if even the pope thinks that ecumenism is a good thing, shouldn’t that be enough? How is it that tons of Catholics here are so very unecumenical-minded? It just doesn’t make sense to me.
Click to expand...
Ecumenism is often abused so that it ends up equating religions and beliefs which is false. People that are wary of ecumenism are wary because of this tendency.

Theoretically ecumenism is fine, but in the real world it is often damaging to the Truth.
 
Nicea325 said:
Maybe not here at CAF,but many are outside this website. I know many who cannot stand it. 🤷
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And rightly so. In many cases ecumenism is essentially the degrading of Truth in the name of “tolerance”. It can be a good and fine thing, but very often in practice it is not.
 
McCall1981 said:
Ecumenism is often abused so that it ends up equating religions and beliefs which is false. People that are wary of ecumenism are wary because of this tendency.

Theoretically ecumenism is fine, but in the real world it is often damaging to the Truth.
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Has the Catholic Church abused ecumenism?
Do you have an example of where the Catholic Church has “damaged the Truth”?

If I have a criticism of the LCMS leadership, it is we have not been involved enough in ecumenism. Thankfully, that seems to be changing.

Jon
 
McCall1981 said:
And rightly so. In many cases ecumenism is essentially the degrading of Truth in the name of “tolerance”. It can be a good and fine thing, but very often in practice it is not.
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May you please provide an actual situation?
 
Nabooru said:
I think the mistake people make with ecumenism is the assumption that it’s all about glossing over differences or just not talking about them. Ecumenism is about bringing the Church together - on the right principles.
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Yes, authentic ecumenism does not mean religious indifferentism or a reduction of the truth or ignoring differences. Authentic ecumenism is always directed toward a sincere, charitable dialogue with truth and unity as its aim. It begins by forming relationships; however, the problem is that some people think it ends there.
 
Nicea325 said:
May you please provide an actual situation?
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Well, an example of authentic ecumenism would be the meetings that representatives from the Orthodox churches have been having with Vatican officials. These meetings are intended to reconcile theological and institutional differences that separate the churches of Christ so that hopefully they can obtain full communion. This is serving Truth and unity authentically.

False ecumenism is any situation that equates religions, promotes relativism or religious indifferentism. These occur more often at the local level, so most of the examples I would use are inter-faith prayer meetings I have personally seen. As far as examples you may know of, the Assisi ecumenical meetings, the graduate theological union (Berkeley) set up, college interfaith groups (Ive experienced several) interfaith prayer meetings (also experienced several) things like that. As I said, these things could potentially be totally fine, but in practice, in my experience, they are usually intended to relativize the Truth.
 
JonNC said:
Perhaps, then, Peter, you are suggesting that Catholics leave ecumenism to the pope and his Cardinals?
Jon
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No, I mean I don’t see how Catholics can feel justified in assuming “unecumenical” attitudes, given that even the Vatican is ecumenical-minded.
 
Fred_Bartels said:
What makes you think that “tons of Catholics here are so very unecumenical-minded”?
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Just from reading, over the last 5 years, stuff posted by Catholics, and comparing that with statements from the Vatican, which I have found to be considerably more “ecumenical-minded”.
 
McCall1981 said:
False ecumenism is any situation that equates religions, promotes relativism or religious indifferentism. These occur more often at the local level, so most of the examples I would use are inter-faith prayer meetings I have personally seen.
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This is a concern to me. My husband & I have been attending a montly prayer meeting for the community. Four churches are involved - Catholic, SDA, and 2 non-denom. On the one hand, I think it’s good to pray for the community, and I really do like some of the people; on the other hand, it seems that Catholics are shy about being Catholic. Other Catholics don’t even make the sign of the cross when they prayer. But perhaps they don’t at home, either. I’m afraid that praying “Protestant style” blurs the uniqueness of Catholic spirituality.
 
Peter_J said:
But the point I’d like to make here: if even the pope thinks that ecumenism is a good thing, shouldn’t that be enough? How is it that tons of Catholics here are so very unecumenical-minded? It just doesn’t make sense to me.
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If one reads some Traditionalist blogs and forums, he or she can think that there are indeed “tons of Catholics” who reject everything linked to Vatican II. But Traditionalists who systematically reject VII and ecumenism are a vociferous minority and there are “tons of Catholics” (me included) who are perfectly fine with what Rome says and does in this respect; not only because “Roma locuta est”, but because it corresponds to their own ideas and wishes.

Among those who don’t reject ecumenism per se, a possible reason is that some find difficult to identify and understand the real current teachings on ecumenism. And not without reason, I think. Check out this:
catholic.com/magazine/articles/is-ecumenism-a-heresy

Another reason has to do with fear of losing the Catholic identity. You can see it even in small things - people who complain online about “Protestant imports” (Charismatic style praying, guitars in church, women as lectors and extraordinary ministers who distribute the Eucharist, even the modern architecture and minimalist decoration of many new churches etc). Sometimes, this may amount to a kind of siege mentality: for example, I have the impression that some dislike the orans posture or holding hands during Our Father exclusively because they perceive them as “un-Catholic”.

And finally, some are confused or discouraged by what they hear or experience from various faithful of other religions or even from fellow Catholics: if one is told that the Catholic Church is the whore of Babylon, that an Orthodox hierarch who prays together with Catholics at the Vatican should be anathematized, that the Talmud says unpleasant things about Jesus or that all Trinitarian Christians are polytheists, their quick conclusion is that ecumenism doesn’t work and that the Vatican is in fact idealizing the whole thing.
 
JonNC said:
Has the Catholic Church abused ecumenism?
Do you have an example of where the Catholic Church has “damaged the Truth”?

If I have a criticism of the LCMS leadership, it is we have not been involved enough in ecumenism. Thankfully, that seems to be changing.

Jon
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I know this thread is about ecumenism in the Roman Catholic church but I am curious about your statement that the LCMS is “changing” re: ecumenical relations. What exactly is the Missouri Synod doing ecumenically? I have noticed an attempt in the LCMS to dialog with Anglicans and other Lutherans in Africa and eastern Europe.
 
Peter_J said:
No, I mean I don’t see how Catholics can feel justified in assuming “unecumenical” attitudes, given that even the Vatican is ecumenical-minded.
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Oh, ok. I misread. I agree to some extent. Some folks seem to be worried that their leadership will “give in” for the sake of a false unity. I certainly don’t see evidence from Catholic leaders that this is the case. Do you?

Jon
 
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