"Roma locuta est" and ecumenism

  • Thread starter Thread starter Peter_J
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
JonNC said:
We do have very strict rules for our clergy to avoid syncretism and unionism. BTW, the charges were later withdrawn because he, Pastor Benke, who was at the time President (bishop) of the Mid-Atlantic District of the LCMS, had permission from President Kieschnick to attend.
As a layman, I have more latitude.

Jon
Click to expand...
How is a lot of dialogue possible if the clergy who usually participate in such discussions have less leeway than a layman. That seems odd to me.
 
fhansen said:
By maintaining that the RCC possesses the “fullness of truth” in regard to the gospel-that she was the Church Jesus established-concepts that are taught by our catechism and Vat II, people often take that assertion to be unecumenical. **But the Church simultaneously pursues ecumenism while not compromising her understanding of the role she’s been given by God. **
Click to expand...
Exactly. That’s the example that posters on this forum ought to follow.
 
EvangelCatholic said:
Jon

I asked the question if you had ever worshiped with non-Lutherans because many in the LCMS consider that forbidden.
Click to expand...
I can relate to your frustration: I’ve been in a lot of conversation with Orthodox who believe that “prayer with heretics” is forbidden.
 
A few thoughts – at 10:30 pm after a busy day.

As I think about it, “Roma locuta est” is a barrier to ecumenism in that it implies that ecumenism is a one-way street, i.e., that (at least from the Catholic point of view) its only end is to reel all non-Catholics back into the Catholic Church.

I am troubled by the implication that one can only be fully Christian by being in communion with the Bishop of Rome. I am troubled because I believe that I am as fully Christian as my Catholic brothers and sisters despite our lack of earthly unity. I believe with my whole heart that all the baptized are members of the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic church – the church which transcends our feeble attempts to organize it here on earth. Why, then, is it so difficult to recognize that membership in each other?

I’m afraid I’m beginning to ramble. I’ll just post this and check in tomorrow, looking forward to your responses.
 
gcnuss said:
A few thoughts – at 10:30 pm after a busy day.

As I think about it, “Roma locuta est” is a barrier to ecumenism in that it implies that ecumenism is a one-way street, i.e., that (at least from the Catholic point of view) its only end is to reel all non-Catholics back into the Catholic Church.

I am troubled by the implication that one can only be fully Christian by being in communion with the Bishop of Rome. I am troubled because I believe that I am as fully Christian as my Catholic brothers and sisters despite our lack of earthly unity. I believe with my whole heart that all the baptized are members of the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic church – the church which transcends our feeble attempts to organize it here on earth. Why, then, is it so difficult to recognize that membership in each other?

I’m afraid I’m beginning to ramble. I’ll just post this and check in tomorrow, looking forward to your responses.
Click to expand...
But by recognizing “separated brethren” as being part of the church God established, the CC at least officially accepts those believers as fellow Christians, a recognition which is often not at all reciprocal from the Reformed side.
 
MaryT777 said:
That actually made newspapers here in my state with one local parish torn between the issue. The “Benke Dispute” They called it.

To keep on topic, severe reprimands for such things dampens the thought of a lot of ecumenism coming from the LCMS.
Click to expand...
The problem is when Christians worship with people of other faiths ( Muslims, Budhists, Hindus, Jews or whatever ) and readings from their holy books are used in the service, Christians are saying that all religions are equal. These faiths do not worship the same God as the Christians. We worship the Triune God. This being Trinity Sunday, read the Athanasian Creed. This is why the LC-MS is against syncretistic worship. LC-MS members can worship with other Christians but not commune with them.
 
Peter_J said:
Exactly. That’s the example that posters on this forum ought to follow.
Click to expand...
OTOH, Peter, I can understand the frustration of some Catholics when they see some Lutheran and Anglican groups/synods (the most logical and historically active dialogue partners) moving away from apostolic and scriptural teaching regarding things like women’s ordination, and certain moral issues. It must seem like dialoguing with a moving target. 🤷

Jon
 
JonNC said:
OTOH, Peter, I can understand the frustration of some Catholics when they see some Lutheran and Anglican groups/synods (the most logical and historically active dialogue partners) moving away from apostolic and scriptural teaching regarding things like women’s ordination, and certain moral issues. It must seem like dialoguing with a moving target. 🤷

Jon
Click to expand...
And conversely, for those of us who have moved on those issues, and consider them important, Rome’s continued intransigence on them is frustrating, though not unexpected. :egyptian:
 
Izdaari said:
And conversely, for those of us who have moved on those issues, and consider them important, Rome’s continued intransigence on them is frustrating, though not unexpected. :egyptian:
Click to expand...
Intransigence? I’d consider it consistent, with scripture and the historic Church.
Jon
 
JonNC said:
Intransigence? I’d consider it consistent, with scripture and the historic Church.
Jon
Click to expand...
Well, it’s consistent with Rome’s past practice and positions. It’s debatable how scriptural it is, but I won’t attempt that here, as it is a most unfavorable venue.
 
Izdaari said:
Well, it’s consistent with Rome’s past practice and positions. It’s debatable how scriptural it is, but I won’t attempt that here, as it is a most unfavorable venue.
Click to expand...
Unfavorable, lol. Perhaps because we have some well catechized members? 😃

From Vatican II

UNITATIS REDINTEGRATIO

CATHOLIC PRINCIPLES ON ECUMENISM
  1. What has revealed the love of God among us is that the Father has sent into the world His only-begotten Son, so that, being made man, He might by His redemption give new life to the entire human race and unify it.(2) Before offering Himself up as a spotless victim upon the altar, Christ prayed to His Father for all who believe in Him: “that they all may be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us, so that the world may believe that thou has sent me”.(3) In His Church He instituted the wonderful sacrament of the Eucharist by which the unity of His Church is both signified and made a reality. He gave His followers a new commandment to love one another,(4) and promised the Spirit, their Advocate,(5) who, as Lord and life-giver, should remain with them forever.
Click to expand...
After being lifted up on the cross and glorified, the Lord Jesus poured forth His Spirit as He had promised, and through the Spirit He has called and gathered together the people of the New Covenant, who are the Church, into a unity of faith, hope and charity, as the Apostle teaches us: “There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one Baptism”.(6) For “all you who have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ … for you are all one in Christ Jesus”.(7) It is the Holy Spirit, dwelling in those who believe and pervading and ruling over the Church as a whole, who brings about that wonderful communion of the faithful. He brings them into intimate union with Christ, so that He is the principle of the Church’s unity. The distribution of graces and offices is His work too,(8) enriching the Church of Jesus Christ with different functions “in order to equip the saints for the work of service, so as to build up the body of Christ”.(9)
Click to expand...
In order to establish this His holy Church everywhere in the world till the end of time, Christ entrusted to the College of the Twelve the task of teaching, ruling and sanctifying.(10) Among their number He selected Peter, and after his confession of faith determined that on him He would build His Church. Also to Peter He promised the keys of the kingdom of heaven,(11) and after His profession of love, entrusted all His sheep to him to be confirmed in faith(12) and shepherded in perfect unity.(13) Christ Jesus Himself was forever to remain the chief cornerstone(14) and shepherd of our souls.(15)
Click to expand...
Jesus Christ, then, willed that the apostles and their successors - the bishops with Peter’s successor at their head - should preach the Gospel faithfully, administer the sacraments, and rule the Church in love. It is thus, under the action of the Holy Spirit, that Christ wills His people to increase, and He perfects His people’s fellowship in unity: in their confessing the one faith, celebrating divine worship in common, and keeping the fraternal harmony of the family of God.
Click to expand...
The Church, then, is God’s only flock; it is like a standard lifted high for the nations to see it:(16) for it serves all mankind through the Gospel of peace(17) as it makes its pilgrim way in hope toward the goal of the fatherland above.(18)
Click to expand...
This is the sacred mystery of the unity of the Church, in Christ and through Christ, the Holy Spirit energizing its various functions. It is a mystery that finds its highest exemplar and source in the unity of the Persons of the Trinity: the Father and the Son in the Holy Spirit, one God.
Click to expand...
At the end of the document we can find about 40 Scriptural references, very handy for those that accuse Catholics of being -]un/-]-Scriptural 🙂
 
MaryT777 said:
The ole charge of Catholics being “un-Scriptural” again?
Click to expand...
Not Catholics per se, but certain positions on liberal vs. conservative “hot-button” issues. To the extent I’d argue that Catholics are wrong on them, I’d also argue that Orthodox and conservative evangelical and fundamentalist Protestants are too.
 
JonNC said:
OTOH, Peter, I can understand the frustration of some Catholics when they see some Lutheran and Anglican groups/synods (the most logical and historically active dialogue partners) moving away from apostolic and scriptural teaching regarding things like women’s ordination, and certain moral issues. It must seem like dialoguing with a moving target. 🤷

Jon
Click to expand...
Thanks … well, I kinda figured already that you’re sympathetic, based on past posts; but it’s good to hear it in any case. 🙂
Izdaari said:
And conversely, for those of us who have moved on those issues, and consider them important, Rome’s continued intransigence on them is frustrating, though not unexpected. :egyptian:
Click to expand...
That makes sense, but I’m reminded of something Frederica Mathewes-Green said about her “former denomination” (she didn’t say which one that is, but it isn’t too hard to guess)
concerning those issues: that back when the liberals were in the minority, it was all “We’ve got to respect everyone’s opinion” and whatnot … but then when they became the majority, suddenly it was all “The Church has spoken!”

(That’s a paraphrase from memory.)
 
Izdaari said:
Not Catholics per se, but certain positions on liberal vs. conservative “hot-button” issues. To the extent I’d argue that Catholics are wrong on them, I’d also argue that Orthodox and conservative evangelical and fundamentalist Protestants are too.
Click to expand...
Wow :rolleyes:

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top