Roman Catholic clergies' knowledge of and interaction with Eastern Catholicism

[ConstantineTG]

Yes, my pastor does all the checks. If someone come up that he does not know, he asks them right there on the spot. We get a lot of Latin Catholics visiting and he does not allow the children to receive unless they have already been to the Latin first communion.

Also he follows the canons for the three Holy Mysteries of Christian Initiation with regard to sui iuris Church. We have had complex situations all done with proper permissions.

ECs usually are more aware of this than RCs. RCs tend to think they are alone in the universe. Most RCs won’t even ask questions about our parishioners and just marry them, baptize their children, etc. They just ask, “are you Catholic”? When they say “yes”, that’s it, done.

 

[5Loaves]

Most RCs won’t even ask questions about our parishioners and just marry them, baptize their children, etc. They just ask, “are you Catholic”? When they say “yes”, that’s it, done.

This is incorrect. Part of the marriage prep is verifying the canonical status of the parties. The canons regarding marriage are different for the Latin Church and for Eastern and Oriental Catholics and not following the proper rite (ex only a priest never a deacon officiating) and not avoiding impediments specific to the Eastern Churches would render a marriage invalid. The canonical status of parents is to be confirmed as well since the children are canonically that of the parents regardless in what paticular Church the Sacrament of Baptism, and possibly Christmation and Eucharist takes place.

I have no problem with you saying something like “In my experience I found that my Latin Church parish did X.” Your persistence in making categorical statements about Latin Catholics (and other groups) is not helpful.

 

[ConstantineTG]

This is incorrect. Part of the marriage prep is verifying the canonical status of the parties. The canons regarding marriage are different for the Latin Church and for Eastern and Oriental Catholics and not following the proper rite (ex only a priest never a deacon officiating) and not avoiding impediments specific to the Eastern Churches would render a marriage invalid. The canonical status of parents is to be confirmed as well since the children are canonically that of the parents regardless in what paticular Church the Sacrament of Baptism, and possibly Christmation and Eucharist takes place.

I have no problem with you saying something like “In my experience I found that my Latin Church parish did X.” Your persistence in making categorical statements about Latin Catholics (and other groups) is not helpful.

Do you want to know how much inquires we’re getting from RC parishes about marrying our canonical members?

What you represented is what should be done. I agree with you. But the reality is that most RC pastors don’t know. They see “Ukrainian Catholic” and they assume it is an ethnic Roman Catholic parish. That is the reality. It is wrong, but it is what is happening.

 

[mardukm]

Do you want to know how much inquires we’re getting from RC parishes about marrying our canonical members?

How much? And on what would you base your statistic? They will still be registered as non-Latin Catholics in their marriage papers, right?

What you represented is what should be done. I agree with you. But the reality is that most RC pastors don’t know. They see “Ukrainian Catholic” and they assume it is an ethnic Roman Catholic parish. That is the reality. It is wrong, but it is what is happening.

More likely, the non-Latin Catholic has chosen to attend the LCC and live by its rules for whatever reason, even if they are not canonically Latin Catholic (which does happen a lot, you must admit). A priest is under no obligation to force a non-Latin Catholic to exercise his/her rights under the laws of the other sui juris Church. The Canons say the Christian has the right to request and the priest at that point is obligated. But, to repeat, a priest is under no obligation to force a non-Latin Catholic to claim those rights. The one thing a priest cannot do, under pain of interdect, is to try to persuade or force the non-Latin Catholic to switch canonical enrollment to the LCC.

So the notation of canonical enrollment on official Church documents related to reception of Sacraments is highly important and is always done. If at some point, the non-Latin or his children decides to claim those rights, the notations are of great importance.

Perhaps you are unfairly presuming ignorance on the part of Latin priests just based on the circumstantial evidence that non-Latin Catholics are receiving their Sacraments according to Latin prescriptions. But it’s more likely the case that those non-Latin Catholics have simply chosen to do so, or have not informed the Latin parish of their actual canonical enrollment. I’m sure you can understand that, as you have yourself promoted the idea “when in Rome do as the Romans do.”

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[5Loaves]

But the reality is that most RC pastors don’t know. They see “Ukrainian Catholic” and they assume it is an ethnic Roman Catholic parish. That is the reality. It is wrong, but it is what is happening.

I have no problem with you saying something like “In my experience I found that my Latin Church parish did X.” Your persistence in making categorical statements about Latin Catholics (and other groups) is not helpful.

I have no problem with you saying something like “In my experience I found that my UGCC Church parish did X.” Your persistence in making categorical statements about Latin Catholics (and other groups) is not helpful.

 

[mardukm]

I’m sure you can understand that, as you have yourself promoted the idea “when in Rome do as the Romans do.”

The point, btw, is that it is rather inconsistent to complain about something that is the direct fruit of a mentality that you have yourself promoted.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[mardukm]

From what I understand, the choice of the officiating pastor rests with the couple. Normally, the bishop’s chancery needs to be informed if the couple is contracting marriage outside the jurisdiction. I don’t think the local parish has to be informed, does it? Does anyone know the answer?

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[Cristiano]

From what I understand, the choice of the officiating pastor rests with the couple. Normally, the bishop’s chancery needs to be informed if the couple is contracting marriage outside the jurisdiction. I don’t think the local parish has to be informed, does it? Does anyone know the answer?

Blessings,
Marduk

In the Latin Church a person must marry in the territorial parish or it must obtain approval from the pastor CCL1108 § 1. There is a literature case in Italy where where the marriage was celebrated in the parish outside the jurisdiction of the territorial pastor and the bishop declared that they had to have a sanatio in radice because of defectu formae. When my son was going to be confirmed I asked the permission of our territorial pastor even if the confirmation is ministered by the Bishop that covered both parishes, it looked like that he was surprised by me asking and he said to go ahead, no problem.

 

[babochka]

What you represented is what should be done. I agree with you. But the reality is that most RC pastors don’t know. They see “Ukrainian Catholic” and they assume it is an ethnic Roman Catholic parish. That is the reality. It is wrong, but it is what is happening.

I have to admit, I’m rather stunned at the level of ignorance displayed by the priests that you have encountered, in this day and age. I have never encountered a priest who did not know what an Eastern Catholic is, but I have encountered several over the age of 60 who knew very little about us. Every single younger priest (under 45) I have encountered has had quite extensive knowledge of the Eastern churches. In the 45 year history of our parish, we have had a strong working relationship with the local Latin Bishops and priests. They have supplied us with bi-ritual priests when we were lacking, occasionally helped our parish financially, and been present at our major events. The Knights of Columbus has provided people to work our festivals in the past. One of the local Ukrainian parishes is having an anniversary celebration this month, and Bishop Soto (local Latin Bishop) will concelebrate the Divine Liturgy. He also recently concelebrated the dedication Divine Liturgy for our new Maronite parish. He gave bi-ritual faculties to my (married) priest last year. I think the responsibility for the appalling lack of knowledge in your part of the world lies with the seminaries and the local Bishop. Since you have such a strong Ukrainian Catholic presence in Canada, it seems that the Bishops there have an absolute responsibility to educate the priests.

I will pray for the situation in your diocese, but please understand that it is not reflective of the experience that most people on this forum have had.

 

[ConstantineTG]

How much? And on what would you base your statistic? They will still be registered as non-Latin Catholics in their marriage papers, right?

Depends. If the RC priest knows the right thing to do, then yes. But if not, then no.

More likely, the non-Latin Catholic has chosen to attend the LCC and live by its rules for whatever reason, even if they are not canonically Latin Catholic (which does happen a lot, you must admit). A priest is under no obligation to force a non-Latin Catholic to exercise his/her rights under the laws of the other sui juris Church. The Canons say the Christian has the right to request and the priest at that point is obligated. But, to repeat, a priest is under no obligation to force a non-Latin Catholic to claim those rights. The one thing a priest cannot do, under pain of interdect, is to try to persuade or force the non-Latin Catholic to switch canonical enrollment to the LCC.

So the notation of canonical enrollment on official Church documents related to reception of Sacraments is highly important and is always done. If at some point, the non-Latin or his children decides to claim those rights, the notations are of great importance.

Perhaps you are unfairly presuming ignorance on the part of Latin priests just based on the circumstantial evidence that non-Latin Catholics are receiving their Sacraments according to Latin prescriptions. But it’s more likely the case that those non-Latin Catholics have simply chosen to do so, or have not informed the Latin parish of their actual canonical enrollment. I’m sure you can understand that, as you have yourself promoted the idea “when in Rome do as the Romans do.”

Blessings,
Marduk

No, I’m pretty much in touch with the goings-on at least in my area. Most of these were revealed to me as part of the issues I’ve had with the RC Church (or should I say, their issue with me) since my move East.

 

[ConstantineTG]

I have to admit, I’m rather stunned at the level of ignorance displayed by the priests that you have encountered, in this day and age. I have never encountered a priest who did not know what an Eastern Catholic is, but I have encountered several over the age of 60 who knew very little about us. Every single younger priest (under 45) I have encountered has had quite extensive knowledge of the Eastern churches. In the 45 year history of our parish, we have had a strong working relationship with the local Latin Bishops and priests. They have supplied us with bi-ritual priests when we were lacking, occasionally helped our parish financially, and been present at our major events. The Knights of Columbus has provided people to work our festivals in the past. One of the local Ukrainian parishes is having an anniversary celebration this month, and Bishop Soto (local Latin Bishop) will concelebrate the Divine Liturgy. He also recently concelebrated the dedication Divine Liturgy for our new Maronite parish. He gave bi-ritual faculties to my (married) priest last year. I think the responsibility for the appalling lack of knowledge in your part of the world lies with the seminaries and the local Bishop. Since you have such a strong Ukrainian Catholic presence in Canada, it seems that the Bishops there have an absolute responsibility to educate the priests.

I will pray for the situation in your diocese, but please understand that it is not reflective of the experience that most people on this forum have had.

Sadly that is how it is. In fact, one of the RC priests I know and love because he is knowledgeable even has this ongoing joke about Ukrainian Catholics that they cross themselves with both hands. How he got to that conclusion I do not know, but I eventually corrected him and told him only the Bishop would bless with the sign of the cross with both hands, and that is only if he is blessing, not crossing himself. And this is a very well educated man. I mean, if it is Latin theology, RC teaching, he is great. But he studied in Europe and once told me that he concelebrated in a Divine Liturgy but it still seems that he doesn’t know much about the Byzantine Rite. Even when he was teaching Theology of the Body he would quip about how “groundbreaking new stuff” it was. Until I moved East and realized a lot of it borrows from Theosis.

If your RC priests are knowledgable about the Eastern Churches, you are the lucky ones. I tell you, I have been working tirelessly (and I am actually at the point of being sick and tired of it) of trying to “get the word out” about the Byzantine Rite and the Ukrainian Catholic Church in our area. I have invited so many Roman Catholics to our parish. Fact is, laity or clergy, they don’t care. I have tried so many avenues, I talked to the Religious Education Office of the RC Archdiocese, I have talked to the Youth Ministry Office of the RC Archdiocese, I have reached out to college groups, youth groups, the local 40 Days for Life. No one cares.

 

[ConstantineTG]

I have no problem with you saying something like “In my experience I found that my UGCC Church parish did X.” Your persistence in making categorical statements about Latin Catholics (and other groups) is not helpful.

The fact is, in today’s day and age, there are still more Bishop Irelands than Bishop Fulton Sheens. When I had my issues and I got thrown out of Catechism from a Latin Church, I spoke to some people I am in touch with (mostly clergy) from Australia, US, Canada, etc. I’ve heard horror stories, and these are recent experiences. Like being denied concelebration for an event (like a funeral) or being denied access to the use of an RC parish.

Maybe it is your wonderful experience that is more of the exception than the norm. Because from what I hear from these people from different parts of the world, there is more ignorance about the Eastern Churches from Roman clergy than there is mutual understanding and respect.

 

[choliks]

The fact is, in today’s day and age, there are still more Bishop Irelands than Bishop Fulton Sheens. When I had my issues and I got thrown out of Catechism from a Latin Church, I spoke to some people I am in touch with (mostly clergy) from Australia, US, Canada, etc. I’ve heard horror stories, and these are recent experiences. Like being denied concelebration for an event (like a funeral) or being denied access to the use of an RC parish.

Maybe it is your wonderful experience that is more of the exception than the norm. Because from what I hear from these people from different parts of the world, there is more ignorance about the Eastern Churches from Roman clergy than there is mutual understanding and respect.

If I may just dive in a bid… I guess that’s the challenge. For someone who has been to the Latin Church and then to the Eastern church, maybe you can build bridges instead of venting anger. Maybe you can help in educating those of the Latin Church about the Eastern Church and her beautiful traditions, instead of just feeling bad about it.

 

[mardukm]

If your RC priests are knowledgable about the Eastern Churches, you are the lucky ones. I tell you, I have been working tirelessly (and I am actually at the point of being sick and tired of it) of trying to “get the word out” about the Byzantine Rite and the Ukrainian Catholic Church in our area. I have invited so many Roman Catholics to our parish. Fact is, laity or clergy, they don’t care. I have tried so many avenues, I talked to the Religious Education Office of the RC Archdiocese, I have talked to the Youth Ministry Office of the RC Archdiocese, I have reached out to college groups, youth groups, the local 40 Days for Life. No one cares.

When I had my issues and I got thrown out of Catechism from a Latin Church,

TBH, brother Constantine, if your approach to Latin Catholicism towards these Latins is reflfected by your approach here in CAF - magnifying differences with no effort to find the commonalities - I can understand their resistance to you. Your zeal is great (and God bless you for it), but your method of evangelizing for the Eastern Tradition leaves a lot to be desired.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[mardukm]

Like being denied concelebration for an event (like a funeral) or being denied access to the use of an RC parish.

What were the reasons for these denials? Do you have that information? Do you have the story from both sides, not just from the one who was frustrated by the event?

There is a recent thread in the LIturgy and Sacraments section where a member had made an appointment with her priest to discuss the matter of moving up her marriage to an earlier date due to extenuating circumstances. The priest’s assistant called her to break the appointment and the assistant stated it was not certain when the priest would be available to talk. Without even having spoken to the priest, the member immediately assumed this was a denial of her request, and charges of the priest being too good to respond by himself and other ad hominems flew around in the thread. A lot of times, when there is frustration in our hearts, our judgment is clouded, and we can presume a lot of things that are not really true. I know it has happened to me.

Just a word of caution.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[twf]

For what its worth, I’m from the same region as Constantine, and while I find his experiences most unfortunate, I find it hard to believe that priests of this archdiocese are ignorant of the Ukrainian Church. For one, the BC Catholic, our archdiocese’s official weekly paper, has had numerous articles on issues concerning the local (and wider) Ukrainian Church… for another, I’ve seen Ukrainian bishops, including the local eparch, in attendance at several high profile masses (such as the enthronment of our current archbishop a couple years ago). So there is certainly awareness at the clergy level at the very least.
I must admit that I haven’t personally attended a Ukrainian divine liturgy in the city - but I have elsewhere in the eparchy… and have worshipped at the local Melkite mission several times.

 

[ConstantineTG]

What were the reasons for these denials? Do you have that information? Do you have the story from both sides, not just from the one who was frustrated by the event?

He was told by the other priest that the reason is he is not Roman Catholic.

 

[ConstantineTG]

If I may just dive in a bid… I guess that’s the challenge. For someone who has been to the Latin Church and then to the Eastern church, maybe you can build bridges instead of venting anger. Maybe you can help in educating those of the Latin Church about the Eastern Church and her beautiful traditions, instead of just feeling bad about it.

I fully understand ignorance of the Eastern Catholic Churches. I was ignorant of it too. That is why I want to spread the word. But I tried, and I’ve done things I don’t normally do. I’m quite shy in person, especially with strangers. People I know, I will blabber like I do here in the forum. But people I do not know, I won’t talk to them. But I tracked down strangers, wrote emails, friended on facebook, called up at their office, to start something with their office, group or organization. Nothing. 2 years and nothing.

For what its worth, I’m from the same region as Constantine, and while I find his experiences most unfortunate, I find it hard to believe that priests of this archdiocese are ignorant of the Ukrainian Church. For one, the BC Catholic, our archdiocese’s official weekly paper, has had numerous articles on issues concerning the local (and wider) Ukrainian Church… for another, I’ve seen Ukrainian bishops, including the local eparch, in attendance at several high profile masses (such as the enthronment of our current archbishop a couple years ago). So there is certainly awareness at the clergy level at the very least.
I must admit that I haven’t personally attended a Ukrainian divine liturgy in the city - but I have elsewhere in the eparchy… and have worshipped at the local Melkite mission several times.

I’ve been reading BC Catholic intently for the last 3 years. Prior to His Beatitude’s visit, we have one article that talked about the Eastern tradition. And 2 articles about a certain priest who used to be a stage and TV actor who is doing one-man shows about the lives of saints and the genocide in Ukraine. Oh, and the installation of the new priest in one of our parishes. Don’t take the recent splurge of articles as something that has been happening a lot in the past. And I did write to the editor before that they should highlight the Eastern Catholics in the Lower Mainland as well.

Look, most of the RC priests here I have met are great priests. I can name my favorites and there is a number of them. But they are focused on their own spirituality. They are very learned about RC spirituality and anything and everything related to the RC faith. And that is fine, they are RC priests ministering to an RC flock. They are busy people and in their free time they study more about the RC faith. Learning about the Eastern Churches is not high on their list. Most of them probably never heard of it so they never bothered to expand their learning there. And that doesn’t make them bad priests, the Eastern Churches are not part of what they need to do on an everyday basis.

By the way, before our current bishops, our past bishops wouldn’t even vest with Byzantine vestments when concelebrating with RCs. Even when they attend functions like the KofC they would come in looking like the Latin bishop. They know it is controversial to come in looking nothing like your local (Roman) Catholic Bishop.

 

[5Loaves]

Do you have** the story from both sides**, not just from the one who was frustrated by the event?
ConstantineTG;9880651:

He was told by the other priest that the reason is he is not Roman Catholic.

Apparently the answer to that is “no”. We do not know the full story.

I know that, for example, since the sex abuse scandal how concelebrations happen has changed at least in the US. With rare exceptions (like our Russian parishes) the Eastern CCs and Latin CCs are in separate Diocese/Eparchies. Being from a different diocese (Latin or EC) a priest who is concelebrating in the Archdiocese of SF with the parish pastor and is known to that pastor need only provide a recent (written in the past week to week and a half) “Letter of Good Standing” from his bishop in order to concelebrate (ECC or Latin Church).

Without that (very) recent LGS and being known to the pastor they cannot concelebrate. Other circumstances will require the letter to first go to the Archdiocese Chancery, again whether the visiting priest is Latin Church or ECC. All of this can take place fairly rapidly, but it does mean that the days when a visiting priest could just be invited to the altar are over. There is no Eastern Church in the Diocese of Oakland where I domicile, but I have talked with the Safe Environment staff and there are similar requirements for visiting clergy there.

Having just in the last six months been deeply rocked myself by the arrest for sexual abuse of minor children (with photo evidence) of a local Orthodox priest with whom I have marched for a number of years in the Walk for Life here, and knowing several of his parishioners from a small class we are in together, I can assure you I have no problem with this minimal amount of inquiry that now takes place in the Catholic Church in the US, and the kind of training we are required to take ourselves if we participate in ministry in a parish. I completed my training, required every 3 years, for the Oakland Diocese and a couple weeks later repeated it as required for the SF Archdiocese. I’ve been told that ECC priests and Latin priests here are familiar with this and generally travel with their LGS, now required to be very recently issued.

 

[mardukm]

He was told by the other priest that the reason is he is not Roman Catholic.

That’s an unbelievably vague reason. There could have been an issue of whether to use the Latin or non-Latin prayers.

As far as denying access to the church, it could have been for the simple reason of resources to accomodate an Eastern or Oriental Liturgy. Maybe the Latin priest suggested “the other LCC down a ways can accomodate your needs better” but the Eastern/Oriental priest felt that was a rebuff.

I don’t know. You could be right that there was prejudice involved, but I wouldn’t automatically assume it.

Blessings,
Marduk