Roman Catholic OR Catholic?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Tony9712262
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Thanks you did a good job of explaining but I still have a hard time understanding the self governing part. I imagine you are self governed because you are ancient churches founded by an apostle?
Not entirely. Some of the reasons are political, but from ancient times. Some are cultural. Being self governing means they can set up their own rules and safeguard their own traditions. This is not to say the Pope doesn’t know or doesn’t care about their traditions, but like all traditions there should be a careful balance of keeping the old and integrating the new. Those who lived those traditions and live in the cultures where those Churches are now understand that better as the Pope would know how to do that for the Roman Catholic Church. Can you imagine the Pope making decisions on things like the Dormition Fast or the 12 Great Feasts when those either don’t exist or doesn’t hold the same relevance in the Roman Church?
What teachings or category of teachings do you follow that may be different from Rome?
Let me just first make it clear that I am still a Roman Catholic and I’ve just begun my “journey East”. I’m just probably a step or two ahead of you in understanding the East. But to the best of my abilities, let me share what I know.

The teachings per se is the same. The focus and thrust is different. The difference in emphasis and approach came about from early theologians who has different approaches to understanding and teaching the faith. These developed through the years and continues today.

One thing I noticed is that there are more fasting days in the Byzantine Calendar as supposed to the Roman Calendar. Again you can refer to the Byzantine Fasting thread for that.
Liturgy is one area of difference what are some others?
Experience the Liturgies and you’ll realize how the same all the Liturgies are. JREducation has mentioned in another thread (forgot where it is exactly right now) that liturgies have essential parts, and non-essential parts. You can have any different form and have the essential parts and you make it a valid Catholic Liturgy. This is how we have adopted the Anglican Mass and inserted the essential parts and turned it into a Catholic Mass. In the Eastern Liturgies you will find the same parts, the Gloria, Sanctus, Anaphora, Epistle, Gospel, Communion. Thats not the complete list, just those off the top of my head. Liturgy is not a matter of difference of teaching but a difference of tradition. The essential parts make you realize how similar they are. Don’t expect to walk into a Divine Liturgy and experience a completely alien form of worship. You’ll be surprised how familiar it is.
If we are one, holy, apostolic, catholic church why would I have to apply for permission to be part of another catholic church?
Like I said, canonical enrollment. You do not have to ask permission to attend their Liturgies or receive the Sacraments. Although Baptisms, Confirmation and Matiromony are strongly encouraged to be in your own Rite, but not enforced if your own Rite is not available in your area (for those who migrate). Holy Orders is absolutely must be in your own canonical Rite, although you can still become a bi-ritual or tri-ritual priest later on.

Canonical enrollment is similar to citizenship. We are all humans. Are Americans better than Canadians? Of course not. But it simply means that Americans are subject to American law and Canadians are subject to Canadian law. We we travel we follow the law of that land but there are certain things that follow us when we are in a different land.
Do other catholic priests marry or remain celibate as the Roman priests? If they marry, how can they be in union with the teaching of the pope?
No, the tradition of imposed celibacy never prospered in the East. But there are many celibate priests. All Bishops are celibate, it is a requirement mandated by both East and West.

Celibacy is not a doctrine or dogma, but rather a discipline. And this discipline was only ever imposed on the Roman Church. I believed this developed after the Great Schism and when Eastern Catholics reunited with Rome, Rome never saw it fit to impose such discipline on them.
I hope you understand I am seeking to understand and I am not confronting you. I am very ignorant on the sui juris churches as well as the orthodox church.
We both journey in understanding the East, I’m happy to share the things that I have learned.
 
…4. Why in the United States are there Roman bishops and other catholic bishops in the same area? It seems to me that if they are in union with Rome they would fall under the same bishop. I can understand the difference in the original countries from ancient times but here we are a modern country.
In the USA (and other countries also) there are overlapping jurisdictions of different Churches sui iuris, in fact nine Eastern Catholic eparchies and one exarchy in the USA, all established by the Holy See:
  1. Ukrainian Greek CC:
    Metropolitan Archeparchy of Philadelphia, PA
    Eparchy of Stamford, CT
    Eparchy of Saint Nicholas of Chicago, IL
    Eparchy of Saint Josaphat in Parma, OH
  2. Byzantine (Ruthenian) CC:
    Metropolitan Archeparchy of Pittsburgh, PA
    Eparchy of Passaic, NJ
    Eparchy of Parma, OH
    Eparchy of Holy Protection of Mary of Phoenix, AZ
  3. Maronite CC:
    Eparchy of Saint Maron of Brooklyn, NY
    Eparchy of Our Lady of Lebanon of Los Angeles, CA
  4. Melkite Greek CC:
    Eparchy of Newton, MA
  5. Armenian CC:
    Eparchy of Our Lady of Nareg, New York, NY (USA and Canada)
  6. Chaldean CC:
    Eparchy of Saint Thomas the Apostle of Detroit, MI
    Eparchy of Saint Peter the Apostle of San Diego, CA
  7. Romanian Greek CC:
    Eparchy of Saint George’s in Canton, OH
  8. Syrian CC:
    Eparchy of Our Lady of Deliverance of Newark, NJ
  9. Syro-Malabar CC:
    Eparchy of St Thomas of Chicago, IL
  10. Syro-Malankara CC:
    Exarchy of United States of America (Hempstead, NY)
Also:

CCEO Canon 12
  1. The Christian faithful are bound by an obligation in their own patterns of activity always to maintain communion with the Church.
  2. They are to fulfill with great diligence the duties which they owe to the universal Church and to their own Church sui iuris.
    CCEO Canon 403
  3. With due regard for the right and obligation to preserve everywhere their own rite, lay persons have the right to participate actively in the liturgical celebrations of any Church sui iuris whatsoever, according to the norms of the liturgical books.
 
I’ve heard that ALL should be referred to as ROMAN catholic, because that is where our final jurisdiction comes from- so then you would say Western-rite or eastern-rite and go from there
 
I’ve heard that ALL should be referred to as ROMAN catholic, because that is where our final jurisdiction comes from- so then you would say Western-rite or eastern-rite and go from there
That is incorrect as a rite describes a Church. There are many Byzantine Rite Catholic Churches.

Also each Catholic Church has its own bishops, so jurisdiction flows from the Pope, not from Rome.

The Pope has three hats, that is positions.

Bishop of Rome
Head of the Latin Catholic Church (used to be called Patriarch of the West)
Pope (head of the Catholic Church)

The jurisdictions of those Churches that are not the Latin Catholic Church flow from the Pope while the jurisdictions of those in the Latin Catholic Church flow from the Head of the Latin Catholic Church (again, not Rome).

So maybe the term, Vatican Catholic, could be created to describe us but why?

The Vatican is the City where the Pope resides so it all flows from there, not from his being Bishop of Rome (though that is part of this threefold title).
 
The Pope has three hats, that is positions.

Bishop of Rome
Head of the Latin Catholic Church (used to be called Patriarch of the West)
Pope (head of the Catholic Church)
Don’t forget Metropolitan of the Province of Rome and the Primate of Italy
 
Let me just first make it clear that I am still a Roman Catholic and I’ve just begun my “journey East”. I’m just probably a step or two ahead of you in understanding the East. But to the best of my abilities, let me share what I know.

We both journey in understanding the East, I’m happy to share the things that I have learned.
Thanks, peace and blessings
 
ByzCath- I should have been clearer- of course, all Eastern Catholics shouldn’t be lumped together

There are “Byzantine/Eastern old Catholic” that ‘ordain’ women as priests and bishops, by identifying ourselves as Roman Catholic and then continuing with our actual rite might help people understand who we are…
 
ByzCath- I should have been clearer- of course, all Eastern Catholics shouldn’t be lumped together

There are “Byzantine/Eastern old Catholic” that ‘ordain’ women as priests and bishops, by identifying ourselves as Roman Catholic and then continuing with our actual rite might help people understand who we are…
But we are not Roman Catholics with a different rite. We are Churches in our own right (no pun intended).

Why must we identify ourselves by another Church’s name?

I know of no Byzantine groups that ordain women.

I am a Byzantine Ruthenian Catholic. I am not a Roman Cahtolic of the Byzantine Rite.

How would your solution differentiate between myself, a Byzantine Ruthenian Catholic, and a Melkite Greek Catholic? You would have us both identify ourselves as Roman Catholics of the Byzantine rite. Now you would have to throw in usages or recessions of the rite.

There is no simple way though this other than education. Teach people that the Catholic Church is made up of 23 sui juris Churches all in communion with one another.
 
Br David/ByzCath-

The ‘Old Eastern Catholics’ here (with a women ‘bishop’) identify themselves as Byzantine Catholic. The woman I know who is a ‘bishop’ was Western-rite Catholic, became Episcopalian and then this ‘church’- so I don’t think it is any renegade break from the Eastern rites. very confusing- which is why I assure people who ask that I am united with Rome.

I am just a simple type- not a theologian- I’m sure it shows.
 
I’ve been thinking. Is the Church called Catholic Church or Roman Catholic Church…since the Church doesn’t only have Roman Catholics, but also Eastern Catholics.
Although embraced as we do with many other burdens, the term Roman Catholic Church tends to be a pejorative tracing it back to nineteenth century Scottish Presbyterianism.

The proper name is the Catholic Church. The Pope can come from any of the rites, uses, areas, et cetra within the Catholic Church.
 
Although embraced as we do with many other burdens, the term Roman Catholic Church tends to be a pejorative tracing it back to nineteenth century Scottish Presbyterianism.

The proper name is the Catholic Church. The Pope can come from any of the rites, uses, areas, et cetra within the Catholic Church.
Actually the Pope can come from any of the Churches that make up the Catholic Church.

The proper name for the whole of the Catholic communion is the Catholic Church but individuals are members of those Catholic Churches that make up that communion that is in union with the Pope.

The largest is the Latin (also called Roman) Catholic Church. As I have stated elsewhere in this thread I belong to the Byzantine Ruthenian Catholic Church.
 
Br David/ByzCath-

The ‘Old Eastern Catholics’ here (with a women ‘bishop’) identify themselves as Byzantine Catholic. The woman I know who is a ‘bishop’ was Western-rite Catholic, became Episcopalian and then this ‘church’- so I don’t think it is any renegade break from the Eastern rites. very confusing- which is why I assure people who ask that I am united with Rome.

I am just a simple type- not a theologian- I’m sure it shows.
Wow, I thought dissenters were only in the Roman Church. So even the Byzantine Rite has a feminist movement. Why are they called Old Eastern Catholics? Are they just adopting Eastern traditions but got “ordained” by the Old Catholics?
 
Wow, I thought dissenters were only in the Roman Church. So even the Byzantine Rite has a feminist movement. Why are they called Old Eastern Catholics? Are they just adopting Eastern traditions but got “ordained” by the Old Catholics?
I have never heard of an Eastern group with female clergy/bishops. I would be interested in learning the actual name of this group.
 
I have never heard of an Eastern group with female clergy/bishops. I would be interested in learning the actual name of this group.
priestswife mentioned the woman was formerly RC. Its possible that they’re just using the Byzantine Rite because less people know about it so they can fool people into their nonsense. Something like, “oh, in the Roman Rite there are no women priests, its just discipline. In the Byzantine Rite which is an Eastern Rite, there have been women priests since the 1st century,” or something like that. Thats my guess. Or maybe they just like the Divine Liturgy more, I don’t know.
 
priestswife mentioned the woman was formerly RC. Its possible that they’re just using the Byzantine Rite because less people know about it so they can fool people into their nonsense. Something like, “oh, in the Roman Rite there are no women priests, its just discipline. In the Byzantine Rite which is an Eastern Rite, there have been women priests since the 1st century,” or something like that. Thats my guess. Or maybe they just like the Divine Liturgy more, I don’t know.
The only women bishops I have heard of in the United States are Episcopal.

Again, I would be interested in knowing the exact name of this church.
 
The only women bishops I have heard of in the United States are Episcopal.

Again, I would be interested in knowing the exact name of this church.
There is one based out of Las Vegas, cant remember the name they use…the “bishop” was a former priest of the Eparchy of Van Nuys.
 
The only women bishops I have heard of in the United States are Episcopal.

Again, I would be interested in knowing the exact name of this church.
I did a quick search of “byzantine old catholic” on Google and found something, like a website from the early 90s :rolleyes: and there’s also this Byzantine Catholic Orthodox Church. None of them really in communion with the Pope or the Orthodox. Although after a quick scan I never found any women clergy.
 
The only women bishops I have heard of in the United States are Episcopal.

Again, I would be interested in knowing the exact name of this church.
Many of the Old Catholic jurisdictions make reference that some parishes do use the Eastern Rite… but it’s in the history boilerplate, and I can’t find any that do.

I will point out that the Mariavite often look vaguely Eastern, but are in fact western rite, ordain women, and have female bishops, are loosely affiliated with the Old Catholics…
 
Many of the Old Catholic jurisdictions make reference that some parishes do use the Eastern Rite… but it’s in the history boilerplate, and I can’t find any that do.

I will point out that the Mariavite often look vaguely Eastern, but are in fact western rite, ordain women, and have female bishops, are loosely affiliated with the Old Catholics…
Why is it that a ton of these schismatic and heretic groups today who claim valid ordinations and apostolic succession seem to trace it back to the Old Catholics? Isn’t offering ordinations like candy during Halloween a sacrilege and thus render the ordinations invalid? At some point, someone should put an end to this madness and declare their ordinations invalid.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top