Roman Catholic --> Orthodox --> Eastern Catholic?

[ConstantineTG]

If a Roman Catholic person become Orthodox, then later on decides to return to communion with the Pope, does he return being a Roman Catholic or an Eastern Catholic correspondent of their Orthodox Church?

 

[countertenor]

One would probably have to complete of change of canonical enrollment to make sure everything was correct on the paperwork end, or else there could be problems down the road.

 

[Vico]

If a Roman Catholic person become Orthodox, then later on decides to return to communion with the Pope, does he return being a Roman Catholic or an Eastern Catholic correspondent of their Orthodox Church?

Roman Catholic, because membership in the Catholic Church occurs upon baptism inheriting the same ritual Church as the Catholic parent or guardian (but for a non-baptised adult, by their election). So if one was a Latin Catholic, one is still Latin Catholic, unless a change is made canonically *.

• For an adult, transfer could be through Holy See approval or through marriage to a Catholic of an Eastern Catholic Church. For those under 14 they may be transferred as their parents are, but can elect to revert at age 14.

 

[Matthew_Holford]

To ConstantineTG: I won’t repeat what Vico said as it’s the situation. I suspect your thought process came from what usually happens if an Eastern Orthodox Christian wants to be received into the Catholic Church. They are usually received in to that Eastern Catholic Church that is the one most similar to the Eastern Orthodox Church they are leaving.

To Vico: To save me from re-checking myself (lazy I know) but in the case of marriage is it only the bride who can change to her bridegroom’s Church or can a bridegroom change to his bride’s Church?

 

[5Loaves]

To Vico: To save me from re-checking myself (lazy I know) but in the case of marriage is it only the bride who can change to her bridegroom’s Church or can a bridegroom change to his bride’s Church?

I’m obviously not Vico :
Canon 33 A *wife *is at liberty to transfer to the Church of the husband at the celebration of or during the marriage; when the marriage has ended, she can freely return to the original Church sui iuris.

 

[ConstantineTG]

To ConstantineTG: I won’t repeat what Vico said as it’s the situation. I suspect your thought process came from what usually happens if an Eastern Orthodox Christian wants to be received into the Catholic Church. They are usually received in to that Eastern Catholic Church that is the one most similar to the Eastern Orthodox Church they are leaving.

Yup, that is why it got me thinking that if a Roman Catholic would become Orthodox for a time then want to go back to being Catholic, I wondered which rule would follow him. The patrimony, which is the Church sui juris of his membership at the time he became Orthodox. Or his Orthodox Church.

 

[Vico]

…
To Vico: To save me from re-checking myself (lazy I know) but in the case of marriage is it only the bride who can change to her bridegroom’s Church or can a bridegroom change to his bride’s Church?

An Eastern Catholic groom, only with approval of the Holy See * (the Congregation for Eastern Churches) can transfer, whereas the Eastern Catholic bride has the option to transfer without approval, as described by 5Loves in his post (CCEO Canon 33). It is one of the asymmetries between the CIC and CCEO (there are others with regard to matrimony) to protect the patrimony of the Eastern Churches. But the Latin Church Catholic faithful are free to transfer, see 112§1.2 below. Your example used three terms Roman Catholic, Eastern Catholic, and Orthodox, so then Roman Catholic means Latin Church. If one is a Latin Church faithful, becomes Orthodox, and then returns to the Catholic Church, they are still Latin Church and must follow the appropriate canons (usually CIC, but some CCEO is applicable). * The Holy See has approved Eastern Catholic grooms to transfer, especially in the diaspora (this could be to another Eastern Catholic Church or the Latin Church).
CIC 112 §1. After the reception of baptism, the following are enrolled in another ritual Church sui iuris:

1/ a person who has obtained permission from the Apostolic See;

2/ a spouse who, at the time of or during marriage, has declared that he or she is transferring to the ritual Church sui iuris of the other spouse; when the marriage has ended, however, the person can freely return to the Latin Church;

3/ before the completion of the fourteenth year of age, the children of those mentioned in nn. 1 and 2 as well as, in a mixed marriage, the children of the Catholic party who has legitimately transferred to another ritual Church; on completion of their fourteenth year, however, they can return to the Latin Church.

§2. The practice, however prolonged, of receiving the sacraments according to the rite of another ritual Church sui iuris does not entail enrollment in that Church.

 

[5Loaves]

as described by 5Loves in his post

it’s 5Loaves …and I’m that apparently rare bird here in the EC section- a female EC. Diaconissa Ruth was with us a short time. I wonder why there aren’t more of us here… (Hi Camille Alden!)

 

[Matthew_Holford]

Your example used three terms Roman Catholic, Eastern Catholic, and Orthodox, so then Roman Catholic means Latin Church.

Thanks for the info. I’m still in the process of learning about the Church’s many complex “rules” around marriage.

I’d just like to point out that the terms quoted above weren’t used by me. I always use the term Latin Catholic Church. Occasionally I might use Latin (Roman) Catholic Church if I think it’s necessary.

Living in England I’m used to and aware of “Roman” Catholic being used in a perjorative way. I use Latin to avoid the use of Roman plus because it’s the Church’s own official qualifier for Catholic Church when referring to the western Catholic Church.

 

[Alexander_Roman]

Thanks for the info. I’m still in the process of learning about the Church’s many complex “rules” around marriage.

I’d just like to point out that the terms quoted above weren’t used by me. I always use the term Latin Catholic Church. Occasionally I might use Latin (Roman) Catholic Church if I think it’s necessary.

Living in England I’m used to and aware of “Roman” Catholic being used in a perjorative way. I use Latin to avoid the use of Roman plus because it’s the Church’s own official qualifier for Catholic Church when referring to the western Catholic Church.

Dear Sir,

I understand that Recusant Catholics in Britain would have called themselves “English Catholics.” Is this correct?

Alex

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Roman Catholic, because membership in the Catholic Church occurs upon baptism inheriting the same ritual Church as the Catholic parent or guardian (but for a non-baptised adult, by their election). So if one was a Latin Catholic, one is still Latin Catholic, unless a change is made canonically *.

This is important to note. An infant baptized in the Roman Catholic Church but whose parents are Byzantine Catholic, the child is also Byzantine Catholic.

Reception of the Sacraments do not make a change in ritual Churches.

 

[Vico]

Thanks for the info. I’m still in the process of learning about the Church’s many complex “rules” around marriage.

I’d just like to point out that the terms quoted above weren’t used by me. I always use the term Latin Catholic Church. Occasionally I might use Latin (Roman) Catholic Church if I think it’s necessary.

Living in England I’m used to and aware of “Roman” Catholic being used in a perjorative way. I use Latin to avoid the use of Roman plus because it’s the Church’s own official qualifier for Catholic Church when referring to the western Catholic Church.

I’m sorry, I see, those were ConstantineTG terms.

 

[Vico]

it’s 5Loaves …and I’m that apparently rare bird here in the EC section- a female EC. Diaconissa Ruth was with us a short time. I wonder why there aren’t more of us here… (Hi Camille Alden!)

Sorry! Correction: as described by 5Loaves in her post.

 

[5Loaves]

This is important to note. An infant baptized in the Roman Catholic Church but whose parents are Byzantine Catholic, the child is also Byzantine Catholic.

Reception of the Sacraments do not make a change in ritual Churches.

And as such it’s important that this be noted correctly in the baptismal register in the Latin Church, if the Holy Mysteries do take place there. (Actually it would be the father’s church that would be the one the child is inscribed into, if he is EC, even if the mom is Latin Catholic.)

Ought that baby also have been Chrismated as well, and received first Holy Eucharist, if the Byz tradition they are from does this (not all do)?

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

And as such it’s important that this be noted correctly in the baptismal register in the Latin Church, if the Holy Mysteries do take place there. (Actually it would be the father’s church that would be the one the child is inscribed into, if he is EC, even if the mom is Latin Catholic.)

Ought that baby also have been Chrismated as well, and received first Holy Eucharist, if the Byz tradition they are from does this (not all do)?

No, not if it is not done in that tradition.

I am just such a case. I was born in a town with no Byzantine Church. The bishop told my parents’ to have me baptized at the local Roman Church. If we were practicing Catholics I am sure this would have been fixed when we moved to a city with a Byzantine Church but alas, we were not and it was not fixed until I fully entered the Church in 2000.

 

[Vico]

And as such it’s important that this be noted correctly in the baptismal register in the Latin Church, if the Holy Mysteries do take place there. (Actually it would be the father’s church that would be the one the child is inscribed into, if he is EC, even if the mom is Latin Catholic.)

Ought that baby also have been Chrismated as well, and received first Holy Eucharist, if the Byz tradition they are from does this (not all do)?

No, not if it is not done in that tradition.

I am just such a case. I was born in a town with no Byzantine Church. The bishop told my parents’ to have me baptized at the local Roman Church. If we were practicing Catholics I am sure this would have been fixed when we moved to a city with a Byzantine Church but alas, we were not and it was not fixed until I fully entered the Church in 2000.

Two interesting points follow. The child of a mixed ritual Church sui iuris couple (both Catholic) may ascribe their child to either of their churches if they both agree (CIC 111, CCEO 29) and the liturgical prescripts of the Church sui iuris of ascription are to be used (CCEO 683). If an Eastern Catholic priest baptises a Latin infant, with Latin bishop permission, they do not need to give chrismation (CCEO 694). For the Latin Church confirmation (at age of discretion) is normally given by the bishop. If a Latin priest baptises an infant to be ascribed to an Eastern Catholic Church, it may be done with Eastern bishop permission, if they have the faculties they give chrismation also (CCEO 916). The Holy Myron for chrismation is confected by the eparchial bishop, or depending on the territory, the patriarch.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Here’s another question.

If I apply for canonical transfer, do I write to the Bishop of the diocese where I am in right now, or the diocese where I was baptized and would have my sacramental records?

 

[Vico]

Here’s another question.

If I apply for canonical transfer, do I write to the Bishop of the diocese where I am in right now, or the diocese where I was baptized and would have my sacramental records?

You should talk to the Eastern Catholic priest of the parish you want, because there may be an established procedure. My pastor has people wait two years before transfer.

In areas where there are overlapping eparchies a letter goes to the Latin bishop of your proper diocese, and to the eparch of the diocese that you want to join. I think there are some older threads with posts on this forum with examples.

 

[ConstantineTG]

You should talk to the Eastern Catholic priest of the parish you want, because there may be an established procedure. My pastor has people wait two years before transfer.

In areas where there are overlapping eparchies a letter goes to the Latin bishop of your proper diocese, and to the eparch of the diocese that you want to join. I think there are some older threads with posts on this forum with examples.

Okay. Because I’m an immigrant and all my records are in another country, so I’m just wondering.

 

[5Loaves]

Two interesting points follow. The child of a mixed ritual Church sui iuris couple (both Catholic) may ascribe their child to either of their churches if they both agree (CIC 111, CCEO 29) and the liturgical prescripts of the Church sui iuris of ascription are to be used (CCEO 683).

Thanks for this reminder.