Roman Church , Roman Catholic Church , Catholic Church , Church?

[porthos11]

It may have come from his days in the army in WW2 , but when asked his religion my dad would say “RC” .

If I walk over the border of my parish I enter St Mary’s parish , and on their notice-board outside of the church I read “St Marys Roman Catholic Church” .

I have never had any problems with being called a Roman Catholic or saying that I am a member of the Roman Catholic Church .

Some do .

And I wonder “Why?” , and in some instances I know why .

Some people came into the armchair knowledge that Roman Catholic was originally coined by Anglicans to distinguish Papists from Anglicans, whom they still considered part of the Catholic Apostolic church. And so because Roman Catholic had supposedly pejorative origins, it’s a newly discovered insult.

To that, I say, big deal. As a baptized and canonical member of the Latin church that worships in the Roman Rite, I am very much a Roman Catholic.

What I would NOT do is apply the term Roman to Catholics who are not of the Latin church. I will use the descriptor Byzantine Catholic if I want to collectively reference the Ukrainian, Greek, Melkites, Ruthenian, Italo-Albanian, etc. Catholics, or by their specific church names if I’m referencing them in particular: Ukrainian Greek Catholics, Melkite Catholics, Syro-Malabar Catholics. These Catholics, I will not call Roman. Communion with the Pope does not make them Roman. It makes them Catholic.

 

[AndrewAxland]

What I would NOT do is apply the term Roman to Catholics who are not of the Latin church.

The Popes have. Frequently. See my post above for examples.

 

[porthos11]

porthos11:

What I would NOT do is apply the term Roman to Catholics who are not of the Latin church.

The Popes have. Frequently. See my post above for examples.

Yes, yes, I know. The term Roman Catholic is also loosely used to refer to the entire Catholic communion.

And still, I won’t refer to Eastern Catholics in general or particular by the term. Roman Catholic properly refers only to Catholics of the Latin church, despite its loose use by even Popes, and more broadly to the universal Catholic Church, but I stand with our Eastern brethren in not applying the term when referring to them.

 

[AndrewAxland]

despite its loose use by even Popes

I would hardly call the usage by the Popes anything like “loose”. It is very precise.

 

[AndrewAxland]

Roman Catholic properly refers only to Catholics of the Latin church

Also, “Roman Catholic” has never been used to refer to the Latin Church in official Church documents.

 

[Rob2]

porthos11:

despite its loose use by even Popes

I would hardly call the usage by the Popes anything like “loose”. It is very precise.

The words of Pope Pius XII in Humani Generis are not loose . He said , “The Mystical Body of Christ and the Roman Catholic Church are one and the same thing” .

 

[dochawk]

Uhggg not this from you again.

I wonder how many of these the mods need to delete?

hawk

 

[steve-b]

It may have come from his days in the army in WW2 , but when asked his religion my dad would say “RC” .

If I walk over the border of my parish I enter St Mary’s parish , and on their notice-board outside of the church I read “St Marys Roman Catholic Church” .

I have never had any problems with being called a Roman Catholic or saying that I am a member of the Roman Catholic Church .

Some do .

And I wonder “Why?” , and in some instances I know why .

I remember the day, pre Vat II, when one only had to say “the Church”, and everybody automatically knew that meant the Catholic Church. NO ONE who was NOT Catholic would presume “the Church” meant them.

Since the Roman rite, of the Catholic Church is ~98% of the Catholic Church worlwide, and the other ~2% of the 17 other rites of the Catholic Church make up the remainder of the Church, it wasn’t unusual then where virtually 100% of Catholics were Roman Rite Catholics, to refer to any Catholic without asking, as Roman.

HOWEVER,

Technically, we should refer to ourselves as Catholic. While the “rite” IS IMPORTANT, all rites within the Catholic Church are 100% Catholic. And THAT’S the important point. We are ALL 100% Catholics regardless of rite within the Catholic Church.

ALSO

The CCC (Catechism of the Catholic Church) covers the entire Church. It doesn’t mention rite on the cover.

 

[steve-b]

…cont

John Paul II to the Archbishop of Canterbury:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...nterbury.pdf&usg=AOvVaw3aLPRvi3kg-1Zveo_Wf0XE

Pope Benedict XVI in an address in Warsaw:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...cumenico.pdf&usg=AOvVaw3gAdIPwUZAEmyx_GcgGpXE

And there are countless more, going back to well before the Reformation.

I highly doubt that a Pope would use the term “Roman Catholic” in a letter addressed to the Archbishop of Canterbury if the term were in any way disparaging.

The myth that it is disparaging in a weird conspiracy theory spawned by clueless persons in 19th century Britain. Why it got so much mileage when it is so easily shot down is beyond me.

If any Catholic of any particular church objects to being called a member of the Roman Catholic Church, they’ll have to take it up with the Pope.

The way “Roman” was used , is what was at issue.

here

and

here

 

[AndrewAxland]

Don’t tell me. Tell the Pope. I doubt that anyone in Rome has ever heard of or cares in the least bit about this obscure 19th century British conspiracy theory.

 

[steve-b]

Don’t tell me. Tell the Pope. I doubt that anyone in Rome has ever heard of or cares in the least bit about this obscure 19th century British conspiracy theory.

I’m just giving you the history of how “Roman” was used by some and why certain arguments made the points they did.

 

[AndrewAxland]

I’m just giving you the history of how “Roman” was used by some and why certain arguments took the points they did.

Thanks. I was aware of the story already. There was a lot of too doo about this years ago when I used to edit Wikipedia.

 

[phil19034]

hope:

AndrewAxland:

Your argument is not with me, but with the Church, who unambiguously considers you a Roman Catholic, just like the Latin Catholics and all the members of all the particular churches in communion and under the leadership of the Bishop of Rome. What you prefer is irrelevant to anyone except yourself.

Perhaps you can explain to me better what you mean by the Church considers you Roman Catholic.
Look at the Catechism It is not called the Catechism of the Roman Catholic Church but Catechism of the Catholic Church. I use to be hard and fast on this but recently I have learned that Roman isn’t that bad however I still refer to myself as being Catholic of the Latin rite.

True , the Catechism does not speak of the Roman Catholic Church .

But if we go back a few years to the Baltimore Catechism we read " The Roman Catholic Church is the only one that can show these marks, and is, therefore, the only true Church" and “The title catholic belongs to the Roman Catholic Church alone” .

Clearly the Baltimore Catechism is speaking of the Universal Church when in these instances it uses the term Roman Catholic Church .

But the Baltimore Catechism was the Catechism of the United States, not the entire Catholic Church.

I might be wrong, but I think “Roman Catholic” is used a lot more in English than it is used in other languages.

I would imagine this is because we have groups who call themselves Anglo Catholic, Old Catholic, Independent Catholic, etc. But mainly because the Church of England used to often use the name Catholic too.

 

[phil19034]

The words of Pope Pius XII in Humani Generis are not loose . He said , “The Mystical Body of Christ and the Roman Catholic Church are one and the same thing” .

What does it say in Latin?

 

[AndrewAxland]

I might be wrong, but I think “Roman Catholic” is used a lot more in English than it is used in other languages.

You are. It is used A LOT more in Polish, for example. Like a REAL LOT more.

 

[phil19034]

phil19034:

I might be wrong, but I think “Roman Catholic” is used a lot more in English than it is used in other languages.

You are. It is used A LOT more in Polish, for example. Like a REAL LOT more.

Fine. But I didn’t say more in English than any other language.

 

[AndrewAxland]

What does it say in Latin?

Ecclesia catholica romana. You can click on the top of the link I gave to get all the other languages.

 

[phil19034]

Don’t tell me. Tell the Pope. I doubt that anyone in Rome has ever heard of or cares in the least bit about this obscure 19th century British conspiracy theory.

Honest question: why does this bother you so much? I don’t think its wrong for Catholics today to prefer the term “Catholic” vs “Roman Catholic” to refer to the Universal Church.

To me, a “Roman Catholic” is a person who is part of the Roman Rite, because there are Ukrainian Catholics, etc.

Perhaps, I’m more sensitive to it because I pass the Cathedral for the Ukrainian Archdiocese of Philadelphia every day on my way to work, and I know that many of them prefer not to be called “Roman Catholic.” S

So I’m very conscience of the fact that not all Catholics are Roman Rite.

God bless.

 

[Rob2]

AndrewAxland:

Don’t tell me. Tell the Pope. I doubt that anyone in Rome has ever heard of or cares in the least bit about this obscure 19th century British conspiracy theory.

Honest question: why does this bother you so much? I don’t think its wrong for Catholics today to prefer the term “Catholic” vs “Roman Catholic” to refer to the Universal Church.

To me, a “Roman Catholic” is a person who is part of the Roman Rite, because there are Ukrainian Catholics, etc.

Perhaps, I’m more sensitive to it because I pass the Cathedral for the Ukrainian Archdiocese of Philadelphia every day on my way to work, and I know that many of them prefer not to be called “Roman Catholic.” S

So I’m very conscience of the fact that not all Catholics are Roman Rite.

God bless.

Why does it bother AndrewAxland so much ?

From what I have seen of AndrewAxland’s posts he is making the point that the term Roman Catholic Church in magisterial documents refers to the Catholic Church as a whole and is not used in these documents to refer just to the Latin-rite Catholic Church . He is showing that the Roman Catholic Church is the Universal Church , including the Latin-rite Church and the Eastern Catholic Churches .

I can understand , history being taken into account , why members of Eastern Catholic Churches do not like being told that they are members of the Roman Catholic Church . I think we have to repect their views on this , and I hope that future magisterial pronouncements do not use the term Roman Catholic Church for the Universal Church . It would be accurate to do so , but pastorally not a good idea .

In the documents of the Second Ecumenical Council of the Vatican the Fathers of this Sacred Council never once used the words Roman Catholic Church . That should be set up as a precedent even though Popes John Paul II and Benedict XVI , since the Second Council of the Vatican , have continued to speak of the Roman Catholic Church to refer to the Universal Church .

 

[thistle]

https://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/catholic_rites_and_churches.htm