Roman Rite Catholic in Brooklyn NY, transferring to the Syriac Church in need of help (Open to Orthodox, and Catholic posters alike)

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East02West

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A friend of mine recommended that I post my query here, considering my interesting in the East. I have posted on the subject to ByzCath (Which reminds me, I should consider giving them an update on my status…) detailing my reasons for doing so. If necessary, I will post my reasons herein, but for the time being, I do not think it necessary.

As such, I have the desire to immerse myself within the Western Syriac Tradition, however for better or for worse, I do not have a local Western Syriac Catholic Church at my disposal. I however do apparently have local Syriac Orthodox communities within that Tradition, however for some reason or another, the addresses provided for them via Google, do not turn up via Google maps on Street View. Does anyone by chance have an accurate address for St.George’s Syriac Orthodox Church, or St.Mary’s Syro Malankara in Brooklyn ?

I realize that it is indeed quite curious that I as a Catholic would avail myself of an Orthodox community, as oppose to a Catholic one (I have Maronites at my disposal, however their Tradition isn’t exactly Western Syriac, per se.), but that is what I have at my disposal, and will allow me to observe parish life, and immerse myself in the theological discourse of said Tradition as it pertains to the Faith. This brings up my secondary question, what texts are available from within the Syriac Catholic Tradition (Eastern, or Western), that speak to the truths of the Catholic Faith, whilst discoursing through the language of the Syriac Fathers ? Some may in turn read that as a sole lived ecclesiology, but it is the one thing that I believe that will allow me to observe Trinitarian ek-stasis in community, whilst remaining and Orthodox Catholic. All suggestions are appreciated.

Also, as to fulfilling my Sunday Obligation etc., whilst I’m working out of a technicality, I could in turn attend a NOM the evening prior (Saturday), which frees me to attend with the Syriacs on Sunday. A technicality yes, but a legal one nonetheless. After all, I do not have the dispensation that Eastern, and Oriental Catholics (supposedly at least…) have regarding fulfilling their Sunday Obligation through Vespers with the Orthodox, or liturgy with them. Mind you, this is what I’ve heard stated on the matter, so I can’t say whether this is true or not.

Either way, thank you for your time, and I look forward to reading through your responses.
 
East02West said:
A friend of mine recommended that I post my query here, considering my interesting in the East. I have posted on the subject to ByzCath (Which reminds me, I should consider giving them an update on my status…) detailing my reasons for doing so. If necessary, I will post my reasons herein, but for the time being, I do not think it necessary.

As such, I have the desire to immerse myself within the Western Syriac Tradition, however for better or for worse, I do not have a local Western Syriac Catholic Church at my disposal. I however do apparently have local Syriac Orthodox communities within that Tradition, however for some reason or another, the addresses provided for them via Google, do not turn up via Google maps on Street View. Does anyone by chance have an accurate address for St.George’s Syriac Orthodox Church, or St.Mary’s Syro Malankara in Brooklyn ?

I realize that it is indeed quite curious that I as a Catholic would avail myself of an Orthodox community, as oppose to a Catholic one (I have Maronites at my disposal, however their Tradition isn’t exactly Western Syriac, per se.), but that is what I have at my disposal, and will allow me to observe parish life, and immerse myself in the theological discourse of said Tradition as it pertains to the Faith. This brings up my secondary question, what texts are available from within the Syriac Catholic Tradition (Eastern, or Western), that speak to the truths of the Catholic Faith, whilst discoursing through the language of the Syriac Fathers ? Some may in turn read that as a sole lived ecclesiology, but it is the one thing that I believe that will allow me to observe Trinitarian ek-stasis in community, whilst remaining and Orthodox Catholic. All suggestions are appreciated.

Also, as to fulfilling my Sunday Obligation etc., whilst I’m working out of a technicality, I could in turn attend a NOM the evening prior (Saturday), which frees me to attend with the Syriacs on Sunday. A technicality yes, but a legal one nonetheless. After all, I do not have the dispensation that Eastern, and Oriental Catholics (supposedly at least…) have regarding fulfilling their Sunday Obligation through Vespers with the Orthodox, or liturgy with them. Mind you, this is what I’ve heard stated on the matter, so I can’t say whether this is true or not.

Either way, thank you for your time, and I look forward to reading through your responses.
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I think I lost your exact qustion. Can you please restate the actual question you are asking.
 
  1. Does anyone by chance have an accurate address for St.George’s Syriac Orthodox Church, or St.Mary’s Syro Malankara in Brooklyn ?
  2. What texts are available from within the Syriac Catholic Tradition (Eastern, or Western), that speak to the truths of the Catholic Faith, whilst discoursing through the language of the Syriac Fathers ?
Both were in there with their supplied context.
 
I’m confused as to how you expect to live as a Syriac Catholic in a Syriac Orthodox Church, but best of luck to you. The Syriac Catholic Church is tiny (a little south of 160K worldwide, with only one diocese in America, in Newark NJ, which covers the entire country and Canada)…have you tried to find a Syro-Malabar church instead (as opposed to Malankara, who are likewise Orthodox and not Catholic)? I would expect them to be much more numerous in the USA, as they are a much larger church overall (3.8 million). Granted, they are East Syrians, not West Syrian, but since you’re not interested in the Maronites, and want to be Catholic and not Orthodox, you haven’t left yourself a lot of options.

Unfortunately, I do not know of any widely available writings from a Syriac Catholic perspective. The Syriac Fathers are most closely identified with the Syriac Orthodox Church, for obvious reasons, though I suspect some Maronite writings might do the job, as most Syriac peoples whether Catholic or Orthodox share many saints in common, so no doubt you will find a Catholic interpretation of those saints in Maronite, Syro-Malankara, and Syriac Catholic (and Chaldean, too) writings, though only the Maronite writings are widely available (check sources like Eparchy of St. Maron to get an idea of what’s available). Good luck.
 
East02West said:
  1. Does anyone by chance have an accurate address for St.George’s Syriac Orthodox Church, or St.Mary’s Syro Malankara in Brooklyn ?
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Possibly the name is: Coptic Orthodox Church of St. George
1105 67th Street
Brooklyn, NY 11219

The second may be:

St. Mary’s Antiochian Orthodox Church:
81st Street and Ridge Boulevard
Brooklyn, New York 11209

The closest Syro Malankara Church would be in New Hyde Park (or Floral Park; they are close and often used interchageably) – there does not seem to be one in Brooklyn. Also, St. Peter’s in Massapequa is not in Queens, not even close, so the directory does not seem to be accurate as to location.

malankara.net/directory.php?cat=Church

malankara.com/church/church-directory.html
 
I vividly recall your original posting and inquiry.

Your best bet, Catholic and Syriac, is in New Hyde Park

Syro-Malankara Catholic Mar Ivanios Center
950 Hillside Ave
New Hyde Park, NY 11040
Phone: 516-358-6905
Email: josephmarthomas@yahoo.com
Most Rev. Dr. Joseph Mar Thomas

BTW - Vespers does NOT fulfill a Sunday obligation. It is not a Eucharistic service.

Best of luck to you!
 
Gah…there are Syriac Malankaran Catholics, too? Sheesh…you guys just don’t quit, do you? 😛

Alright then…
 
dzheremi said:
I’m confused as to how you expect to live as a Syriac Catholic in a Syriac Orthodox Church, but best of luck to you. The Syriac Catholic Church is tiny (a little south of 160K worldwide, with only one diocese in America, in Newark NJ, which covers the entire country and Canada)…have you tried to find a Syro-Malabar church instead (as opposed to Malankara, who are likewise Orthodox and not Catholic)? I would expect them to be much more numerous in the USA, as they are a much larger church overall (3.8 million). Granted, they are East Syrians, not West Syrian, but since you’re not interested in the Maronites, and want to be Catholic and not Orthodox, you haven’t left yourself a lot of options.

Unfortunately, I do not know of any widely available writings from a Syriac Catholic perspective. The Syriac Fathers are most closely identified with the Syriac Orthodox Church, for obvious reasons, though I suspect some Maronite writings might do the job, as most Syriac peoples whether Catholic or Orthodox share many saints in common, so no doubt you will find a Catholic interpretation of those saints in Maronite, Syro-Malankara, and Syriac Catholic (and Chaldean, too) writings, though only the Maronite writings are widely available (check sources like Eparchy of St. Maron to get an idea of what’s available). Good luck.
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dzheremi makes very good points, which should be taken quite seriously in your discernment and prayer. The Syro-Malankara Christians of Brooklyn and Queens are served by The Saint Basil Malankara Catholic Mission, which is located at the Immaculate Conception Center in Douglaston Queens. They have mass every Sunday–in English on the 4th Sunday of the month. stbasilqueens.org/page1.html
 
"I’m confused as to how you expect to live as a Syriac Catholic in a Syriac Orthodox Church, but best of luck to you. "

For all intents, and purposes, Orthodox, and Eastern Catholic Churches withing the Unia are meant to mirror one another. After all, we as Catholics profess that all those dogmas, and doctrines we hold true, are implicitly held by the Orthodox (I mean considering how it was learned that the Oriental Orthodox aren’t monophysite, but merely employed an older formulation for the same belief…, makes you wonder is all.), it would follow that I’d at most be able to observe as a Syriac Catholic in the Diaspora, without a Syriac Catholic community at their disposal, but at most be able to retain the praxis of the Tradition.

At least theoretically…

" Granted, they are East Syrians, not West Syrian, but since you’re not interested in the Maronites, and want to be Catholic and not Orthodox, you haven’t left yourself a lot of options."

How different are both Traditions, one from the other ? I know Chaldeans are East Syrian, as are those of the Assyrian Church of the East (Nestorians…), so I wonder about the differences. Do you, or anyone else know ?

As to the Maronites, it’s not that I wouldn’t entertain being Maronite (I would…), rather it’s what has become of the Maronite Tradiiton, liturgy, praxis, etc. throughout the centuries. They have the opportunity to reestablish their Tradition vis a vis the Western Syriacs of Eastern Iraq, yet most don’t (Save for perhaps a few in Lebanon.). In so far as my local community, I was informed that they won’t be changing anytime soon. Sigh*

“Unfortunately, I do not know of any widely available writings from a Syriac Catholic perspective. The Syriac Fathers are most closely identified with the Syriac Orthodox Church, for obvious reasons, though I suspect some Maronite writings might do the job, as most Syriac peoples whether Catholic or Orthodox share many saints in common, so no doubt you will find a Catholic interpretation of those saints in Maronite, Syro-Malankara, and Syriac Catholic (and Chaldean, too) writings, though only the Maronite writings are widely available (check sources like Eparchy of St. Maron to get an idea of what’s available). Good luck.”

I’ll have to look through their site, and see if I can obtain some of the titles via the library.

I read through a text called ‘The Syriac Fathers on Prayer, and the Spiritual Life’, and found myself intuitively understanding every point they were expressing. It was as if, they were speaking particularly to me whilst reading it.
 
Saggart said:
dzheremi makes very good points, which should be taken quite seriously in your discernment and prayer. The Syro-Malankara Christians of Brooklyn and Queens are served by The Saint Basil Malankara Catholic Mission, which is located at the Immaculate Conception Center in Douglaston Queens. They have mass every Sunday–in English on the 4th Sunday of the month. stbasilqueens.org/page1.html
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I don’t own a car, the Douglaston center is QUITE far from where I live.

While I don’t mind the Syro-Malankara, I’m aiming more for Western Syriac proper. I don’t mind the Maronites, but as I cited in my previous response, not really in keeping with what I am looking for. Even though, they could be all that, and more. If anything, I want a thoroughly Eastern Catholic Tradition, that functions, as Popes of old, and Blessed John Paul II so desired; restored to mirror their sister Churches within Orthodoxy.
 
Here’s my unsolicited :twocents:

The SCC diocese (Our Lady of Deliverance) is in Hudson County. The Cathedral was in Union City but I’ve heard they’ve moved to Bayonne. They no longer seem to have a valid website, so perhaps it would be best to give them a call (201) 583-1067) for specifics. It’s not clear exactly where you’re located, but Hudson County is accessible via public transit from NYC (PATH to Jersey City and then the Light Rail or bus). Although the distance is rather short, it could, however, be a rather time-consuming trip.

As for the Maronites, sadly it’s true that the effects of the on-going and never-ending Novus Ordo-inspired neo-latinization are a major problem. And yes, most unfortunately, it appears (much to my own chagrin) that things aren’t going to improve any time soon. 😦
 
East02West said:
"I’m confused as to how you expect to live as a Syriac Catholic in a Syriac Orthodox Church, but best of luck to you. "

For all intents, and purposes, Orthodox, and Eastern Catholic Churches withing the Unia are meant to mirror one another. After all, we as Catholics profess that all those dogmas, and doctrines we hold true, are implicitly held by the Orthodox (I mean considering how it was learned that the Oriental Orthodox aren’t monophysite, but merely employed an older formulation for the same belief…, makes you wonder is all.), it would follow that I’d at most be able to observe as a Syriac Catholic in the Diaspora, without a Syriac Catholic community at their disposal, but at most be able to retain the praxis of the Tradition.
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Ah. Well, if it’s just about praxis that might be one thing. There are, after all, some very reverent and "o"rthodox liturgies to be found among the Catholic churches (in addition to some less-than-stellar, which I will not provide an example of out of respect). I was thinking more about the recent thread that appeared on this forum regarding non-Chalcedonian Catholics. Apparently such a thing doesn’t (possibly can’t?) exist, according to the replies, which tells me that, in terms of traditional spirituality or truly “mirroring” their ancient Orthodox counterparts, these Uniate churches are not able to live up to their supposed raison d’etre (to be Orthodox in all things, other than union with Rome).
At least theoretically…
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Yes.
" Granted, they are East Syrians, not West Syrian, but since you’re not interested in the Maronites, and want to be Catholic and not Orthodox, you haven’t left yourself a lot of options."
Click to expand...
How different are both Traditions, one from the other ? I know Chaldeans are East Syrian, as are those of the Assyrian Church of the East (Nestorians…), so I wonder about the differences. Do you, or anyone else know ?
Click to expand...
Without knowing the specifics as they relate to Catholic (not Orthodox) usage, I can’t really say. I have a few books and such on the West Syrian liturgy as it is celebrated by the Malankara Orthodox, but nothing on these “Malankara Catholics” (who, as you can see in the post above, I was not aware of). They are not listed in Attwater’s classic “Eastern Catholic Worship” (1945), though the Malabar are. Speaking in generalities, however, the East Syrians/Nestorians and West Syrians/Syriacs have very different histories (geographical, political, ecclesiastical, etc.), to the point of having different councils, liturgies, saints, positions on iconography (to the Nestorians, this has been disallowed for centuries), vastly different Christologies (West Syrian Orthodox being, well, Orthodox, Nestorians very much not so), etc. I personally would not patronize the East Syrians if you paid me, but I know Rome has a softer view these days. (The Chaldeans, it should be noted, are from the ACoE originally, the division between them and the Nestorians being ecclesiastical rather than strictly historical prior to the union; after the union, of course, we began to see things like grammars of “Chaldean” published by European Orientalist linguists, documenting what until then would’ve been considered the local dialect around Alqosh, and a sort of “parallel nationalism” has developed out of this parallel history given to the Chaldeans. Pretty interesting, in a way. Also kind of sad.)
As to the Maronites, it’s not that I wouldn’t entertain being Maronite (I would…), rather it’s what has become of the Maronite Tradiiton, liturgy, praxis, etc. throughout the centuries. They have the opportunity to reestablish their Tradition vis a vis the Western Syriacs of Eastern Iraq, yet most don’t (Save for perhaps a few in Lebanon.). In so far as my local community, I was informed that they won’t be changing anytime soon. Sigh*
Click to expand...
Yes, I figured as much.
I read through a text called ‘The Syriac Fathers on Prayer, and the Spiritual Life’, and found myself intuitively understanding every point they were expressing. It was as if, they were speaking particularly to me whilst reading it.
Click to expand...
Ah, is that the Brock collection? I think I’ve seen that title on Amazon of all places, but haven’t looked into it myself. I’m sure it’s great.
 
East02West said:
  1. Does anyone by chance have an accurate address for St.George’s Syriac Orthodox Church, or St.Mary’s Syro Malankara in Brooklyn ?
  2. What texts are available from within the Syriac Catholic Tradition (Eastern, or Western), that speak to the truths of the Catholic Faith, whilst discoursing through the language of the Syriac Fathers ?
Both were in there with their supplied context.
Click to expand...
Syro Malankara Catholic
syromalankarausa.org/content/st-basil-queens-church-history

7200 Douglaston Parkway
Douglaston, NY 11362

287 Hamilton Street
Rahway, NJ 07065

1500 De Paul Street
Elmont , NY 11003
 
malphono said:
Here’s my unsolicited :twocents:

The SCC diocese (Our Lady of Deliverance) is in Hudson County. The Cathedral was in Union City but I’ve heard they’ve moved to Bayonne. They no longer seem to have a valid website, so perhaps it would be best to give them a call (201) 583-1067) for specifics. It’s not clear exactly where you’re located, but Hudson County is accessible via public transit from NYC (PATH to Jersey City and then the Light Rail or bus). Although the distance is rather short, it could, however, be a rather time-consuming trip.

As for the Maronites, sadly it’s true that the effects of the on-going and never-ending Novus Ordo-inspired neo-latinization are a major problem. And yes, most unfortunately, it appears (much to my own chagrin) that things aren’t going to improve any time soon. 😦
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You’re right, it’s the journey over that would qualify as a time-consuming trip. Namely in that if memory serves, if one has to travel more than an hour’s worth of time to attend Mass/Liturgy, one’s obligation if lifted (IIRC). In my case, I have plenty of Churches (Melkite, Maronite, Coptic (My borough actually has a Coptic Catholic Church.), Ukrainian, Russian, etc.) at my disposal that are in communion with Rome, and thus not really an excuse in my case. The other thing is, when transferring, the goal is to live in community. That is to say, be a part of the Parish itself. I’m not sure a Sunday commuter can really accomplish that. I’m in Brooklyn NY.

As to Romanizations (I prefer to use that term as opposed to Latinizations, as it’s only fair to the other non-Roman Latin Rites.), I agree with you on that, but the trend goes back far longer than V-II, if anything V-II meant for the Maronites to liberate themselves from such. :-/ Not really sure what else can be said, or done, aside from the people in the pews (Which would probably have to go… ) requesting such, or a direct order from the Pope. Oh what irony…

What can you tell me about Traditional Syriac Maronitism ?
 
dzheremi said:
Ah. Well, if it’s just about praxis that might be one thing. There are, after all, some very reverent and "o"rthodox liturgies to be found among the Catholic churches (in addition to some less-than-stellar, which I will not provide an example of out of respect). I was thinking more about the recent thread that appeared on this forum regarding non-Chalcedonian Catholics. Apparently such a thing doesn’t (possibly can’t?) exist, according to the replies, which tells me that, in terms of traditional spirituality or truly “mirroring” their ancient Orthodox counterparts, these Uniate churches are not able to live up to their supposed raison d’etre (to be Orthodox in all things, other than union with Rome).

Yes.

Without knowing the specifics as they relate to Catholic (not Orthodox) usage, I can’t really say. I have a few books and such on the West Syrian liturgy as it is celebrated by the Malankara Orthodox, but nothing on these “Malankara Catholics” (who, as you can see in the post above, I was not aware of). They are not listed in Attwater’s classic “Eastern Catholic Worship” (1945), though the Malabar are. Speaking in generalities, however, the East Syrians/Nestorians and West Syrians/Syriacs have very different histories (geographical, political, ecclesiastical, etc.), to the point of having different councils, liturgies, saints, positions on iconography (to the Nestorians, this has been disallowed for centuries), vastly different Christologies (West Syrian Orthodox being, well, Orthodox, Nestorians very much not so), etc. I personally would not patronize the East Syrians if you paid me, but I know Rome has a softer view these days. (The Chaldeans, it should be noted, are from the ACoE originally, the division between them and the Nestorians being ecclesiastical rather than strictly historical prior to the union; after the union, of course, we began to see things like grammars of “Chaldean” published by European Orientalist linguists, documenting what until then would’ve been considered the local dialect around Alqosh, and a sort of “parallel nationalism” has developed out of this parallel history given to the Chaldeans. Pretty interesting, in a way. Also kind of sad.)

Yes, I figured as much.

Ah, is that the Brock collection? I think I’ve seen that title on Amazon of all places, but haven’t looked into it myself. I’m sure it’s great.
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Indeed.

I’m quite new to Eastern/Oriental Ecclesiology myself, and thus I am still learning about the various Churches within them.

Essentially it breaks down as follows:

Syriac/Syrian Church of Antioch:

Western
-Western Syriac
—Maronite (…)
  • Syro Malankara
Eastern
-Chaldean (Assyrian Church of the East (Nestorian))
-Syro Malabar

I’m simplifying of course, but that is how I understand it.

I actually am a bit spoiled in terms of the liturgical variety I have at my disposal locally. I have Maronites, Coptics, Mellkites, Greeks, Russians, Ukrainians etc. all within reach. I believe the Ethiopian Catholics are in an outer borough, with a few others. The only community that seems to be missing are the Syriac Catholic Churches (East, and West). I also have a TRL (Traditional Roman Liturgy) in my borough that I used to attend for about 2 1/2 years. I wish them well.

Indeed, it is the text put out by Brock, it is a most EXCELLENT read if I do say so myself. So many things made sense, and it reflected the phronema I was seeking to cultivate unbeknownst to me.
 
@Malphono:

Just curious, how easy/difficult is it for a person from outside the traditional culture from whence the Syriac/Maronite Tradition stems forth from to integrate into a given community. Namely one who has been raised Roman, and is from a culture well outside the Levant ? Just curious is all.

I would imagine it varies by community, but a general outlook would be appreciated.

@dzheremi:

I’ve actually had the pleasure of praying, and worshiping with Coptic Catholics. A most memorable Liturgy indeed. I will never forget the aroma of the incense (Which I might add, is said to be derived from that employed in the Temple. Hhhmmm… I wonder if St.Mark had anything to do with that (He was of the Tribe of Levi) ? BTW, Happy feast !), and how it was the first time that the continuity between the liturgy of the synagogue, and temple registered within their liturgy. I’ll always been indebted to them for that. The Melkites as well in furthering my interests in Antioch, and the Latin Mass for my thirst for Tradition.
 
Sorry, I put the wrong links up for the Chaldean Tradition, rather than the Antiocene Tradition.
 
Here is an interesting observation a friend of mine made, concerning a query someone on my Facebook network had relating to a video I posted on the Liturgy of the Assyrian Church of the East (Nestorians):

“The Nestorians hold to the formulas that in the Trinity there is one kyana, three qnoma, three parsopa and in Christ there are two qnoma. The Greco-Roman tradition looked with suspicion on the “two qnoma in Christ” formula mistakenly thinking that Nestorians believe that Christ is of two “parsopa.” The semantic boundaries that “physis”, “hypostasis” and “qnoma” all respectively govern are similar but different enough that direct translations between different metaphysical systems can sometimes result in one group anathematising the other for not making a sharp enough distinction or for making too sharp a distinction. Contrary to popular opinion, however, the Church of Persia did not split away from everyone at Ephesus - they hadn’t even sent delegates to Ephesus because they had convened a synod and self-declared themselves independent of all other Churches a few decades before Nicaea; they would from henceforth only look to the Catholicos of Seleuca-Ctesiphon. For them, it was bizarre that they should send delegates to Ephesus and be forced to accept it because it was a Roman imperial council trying to smooth out affairs about the Roman state religion. What did Persian Christians have to do with what went on inside the Roman Empire? This attitude is an interesting testament to the ecclesiological beliefs and practices of the early Church. coughUnlikeWhatSomeCatholicsBelievecough Chalcedon, I believe, is a whole different ball game because most of the metaphysics being debated was carried out by Greek-speaking hierarchs and theologians.”
 
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