Romance vs. Practicality in Marriage

[Nadq]

Now, that is a HUGE issue.
In the US, we have Dave Ramsey’s Financial Peace University.

Thanks, I had a look at this, it looks very useful. Fortunately neither of us has any dept, I actually also have some savings, but they will translate to much less to Australian standards. I think I am much better at planning, I managed to finance my MBA program, help my parents, travel and save money aside. The question is how receptive he would be to tutoring…

 

[Nadq]

So, has your boyfriend looked into the academic job market for his field? You should be able to do a little research on your own and be able to assess if his plans are realistic. It is REALLY sad to find yourself a 40-something with a doctorate and discover that there are no jobs for you. At that age, it’s progressively harder to start a new life.

I think he is very good academically, now he has a full scholarship in a very selective master program for architecture, it is quite probable that he manages well even to a PHD level. And the problem with the part-time jobs is that he only started studying his BA at the age of 28, he wasted 10 years in traveling around the world and working different jobs, but none of them long-term or career building.

But you ask a very valid question, what if he can’t adapt to the job market after graduating, that is not a small risk.

 

[Xantippe]

Thanks, I had a look at this, it looks very useful. Fortunately neither of us has any dept, I actually also have some savings, but they will translate to much less to Australian standards. I think I am much better at planning, I managed to finance my MBA program, help my parents, travel and save money aside. The question is how receptive he would be to tutoring…

Well, if he’s not, that would be a problem. Fortunately, that is an area that you can work out well in advance of marriage.

Money is traditionally one of the biggest areas of conflict in marriage, and if you are able to have an effective decision-making process, you can greatly increase the chances of having a successful marriage. Dave Ramsey is VERY good on the question of marriage and money.

Minimally, it’s important to do a monthly budget meeting where it’s decided how much money will be spent. Any significant changes in the budget need to be approved by the other spouse. An envelope system could be very helpful for somebody like your boyfriend. He would get an envelope at the beginning of the month with the amount of money you had budgeted for his spending money (lunches, coffees, video games, whatever). And when that money is gone, he needs to stop spending. (And you get discretionary money, too.)

Good luck!

 

[Nadq]

I am just wondering why you would be the one giving up your job and family and home to be with this guy…

Why is he not moving to you?

I would be concerned about you going forward with this on so many levels if I were your mother. Your biological clock may be pushing you into thinking this is a good thing when really, you know hardly anything about this guy, and as 1ke said: he does not seem like husband material.

Because he has just got a scholarship for a master degree at prestigious university, and that is his chance for a future career and to change the status quo, which obviously he also is not content with. Also he does not speak my language and I do speak English.

No, the biological clock could never be a sufficient reason for me, I would rather stay alone, than be with the wrong partner. I just don’t want to turn away a good person, and someone, who has a strong and deep faith. Almost everything else is fixable in life or can be subject to a compromise, and many things we take as a given can be lost - wealth, career, good health… I think the most important, which remains and which defines us is the foundation of fate, our values and the moral choices that we make. After all this is what we would be asked about on the Last Judgment - not how famous we have become and what status we had in society.

 

[Xantippe]

Because he has just got a scholarship for a master degree at prestigious university, and that is his chance for a future career and to change the status quo, which obviously he also is not content with. Also he does not speak my language and I do speak English.

No, the biological clock could never be a sufficient reason for me, I would rather stay alone, than be with the wrong partner. I just don’t want to turn away a good person, and someone, who has a strong and deep faith. Almost everything else is fixable in life or can be subject to a compromise, and many things we take as a given can be lost - wealth, career, good health… I think the most important, which remains and which defines us is the foundation of fate, our values and the moral choices that we make. After all this is what we would be asked about on the Last Judgment - not how famous we have become and what status we had in society.

If not having sex with you before marriage represents a major sacrifice for him, how deep and strong is that faith? Or, if it is deep and strong, is it compatible with yours?

 

[1ke]

The sum total of everything you’ve written here is that he is not the guy for you.

You and he do not share the same outlook on money, work, responsibility, relationship with/dependence on parents, family, or faith.

You are trying very hard to overlook all the things that are wrong here. That will come back and bite you HARD if you move forward with going to this guy’s country or marrying him.

MOVE ON.

 

[Nadq]

If not having sex with you before marriage represents a major sacrifice for him, how deep and strong is that faith? Or, if it is deep and strong, is it compatible with yours?

Yes, we will have a discussion about this one. I thought that it was obvious and self-explainable what kind of relationship we would have, but I felt that he was somewhat surprised. I need to dig deeper in this.

 

[Xantippe]

I also wonder if he’s ready for the sacrifices that will be involved in marriage and (especially) parenthood.

What I always say on CAF is that you have to be prepared to lose 90% of your free time and 90% of your discretionary spending money once you have children.

Up to now, your boyfriend has been able to spend 100+% of his income on what he personally wants. It can be very shocking for person used to that lifestyle to discover that the time and money available for recreation and hobbies have suddenly disappeared.

If you both follow your dreams and he pursues a doctorate and you have a baby as soon as possible, here’s how it will probably work if it works at all. Money will be very tight. He will be getting a small stipend while working long hours and you will probably be working in some sort of lower-paying entry level job. Baby will almost certainly have to go to daycare and it will cost a substantial fraction of one of your salaries.

au.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090517200503AAwcVR6

You’ll also need housing big enough for a couple with a baby, which will be far more expensive than your boyfriend’s current roommate set-up.

There won’t be any money or time available for the stuff your boyfriend used to do for fun, and he may get very crabby about it. The reason he currently sees it as romance vs. practicality is that he does not understand the sacrifices that he personally will have to make if your future family is going to survive.

It is worth thinking about the question (and talking to boyfriend about it)–if he needs all of his money (plus some of his parents’) now just for his expenses, how on earth will he cope with a wife and a kid (or kids).

(On the bright side, immigrants sometimes do unexpectedly well. One of my relatives came from Eastern Europe to Canada with nothing but her education when she was about 30 and now makes (or used to make) about a quarter million Canadian dollars a year.)

It’s not impossible, but there are some obvious pitfalls.

Best wishes!

 

[pianistclare]

I’m struck by the tendency of the OP to acknowledge the positive posts, and not comment on the ones pointing that are not encouraging.

Everyone wants to think that the time they “invested” in someone will make things work out.
But sometimes we just have to look very clearly…

 

[Nadq]

I’m struck by the tendency of the OP to acknowledge the positive posts, and not comment on the ones pointing that are not encouraging.

Everyone wants to think that the time they “invested” in someone will make things work out.
But sometimes we just have to look very clearly…

Hi Pianistclare,

I am very grateful for your protectionist attitude and I appreciate that all responses are well meant, but something I can not accept as a Christian is to define people as “material”. I think this does not show respect to the human dignity and sounds very uncharitable. One of our politicians used this term just once, recklessly, and he was literary torn apart by the media. My friend is not reading this forum, but I would never say anything about him, that I would not say into his face, or anything that I would be ashamed in the light of Christ to say in front of all people, and this would naturally exclude all judgmental statements. What if Christ dismissed us all as unworthy material, which we have well deserved through all sins?

Also to be sorry for the time one has invested does not truly reflect the selfless nature of love, it sounds very egocentric if we start counting our time, cost and other sacrifices we make- love gives without measure. So far we are building a very solid friendship with my friend, we feel for each other and are supporting each other in some difficult and sad experiences in our lives, that is worth a lot to both of us and that will last, even if we decide that the circumstances are too hostile and do not allow us for the opportunity to start a family. I have very deep respect for him as a person in terms of loyalty, compassion, gentleness and the more I get to know him, the more I see in depth the beauty of his soul. He might have been very impractical so far, but that does not stop me from appreciating him as a person and does not diminish his value in my eyes. Each of us is imperfect, the main point for me is to find someone, whose imperfections I can live with and can be compatible to mine, with whom I don’t have to make compromises with my values and with whom we take a firm decision to grow together in faith and closer to God. Different people look for different things to make them happy, for a marriage that is completely sufficient for me, I can live with or without the rest.

Pls. have in mind that I am speaking from a position of a child of divorced parents and I am completely capable of appreciating what was missing, in spite of the fact, that all normal conditions for a good lifestyle have been present and there were no significant hurdles in life at all.

 

[pianistclare]

Hi Pianistclare,

I am very grateful for your protectionist attitude and I appreciate that all responses are well meant, but something I can not accept as a Christian is to define people as “material”. I think this does not show respect to the human dignity and sounds very uncharitable. One of our politicians used this term just once, recklessly, and he was literary torn apart by the media. My friend is not reading this forum, but I would never say anything about him, that I would not say into his face, or anything that I would be ashamed in the light of Christ to say in front of all people, and this would naturally exclude all judgmental statements. What if Christ dismissed us all as unworthy material, which we have well deserved through all sins?

Also to be sorry for the time one has invested does not truly reflect the selfless nature of love, it sounds very egocentric if we start counting our time, cost and other sacrifices we make- love gives without measure. So far we are building a very solid friendship with my friend, we feel for each other and are supporting each other in some difficult and sad experiences in our lives, that is worth a lot to both of us and that will last, even if we decide that the circumstances are too hostile and do not allow us for the opportunity to start a family. I have very deep respect for him as a person in terms of loyalty, compassion, gentleness and the more I get to know him, the more I see in depth the beauty of his soul. He might have been very impractical so far, but that does not stop me from appreciating him as a person and does not diminish his value in my eyes. Each of us is imperfect, the main point for me is to find someone, whose imperfections I can live with and can be compatible to mine, with whom I don’t have to make compromises with my values and with whom we take a firm decision to grow together in faith and closer to God. Different people look for different things to make them happy, for a marriage that is completely sufficient for me, I can live with or without the rest.

Pls. have in mind that I am speaking from a position of a child of divorced parents and I am completely capable of appreciating what was missing, in spite of the fact, that all normal conditions for a good lifestyle have been present and there were no significant hurdles in life at all.

I just looked back at my posts…and I do not see where I said he was not husband material. I don’t think I used the word material, but if you can find it

Anyway, being a Christian does not mean to say we are doormats.
A Christian is not called to suffer needlessly, or to experience things that would damage our soul for the sake of trying to be Christian.
Indeed, staying in a harmful situation would do just that.
This is what happens when people come here with a huge problem, an when presented with the opinions of others (what the forum is about) there is a big about-face.
I wish you well.
Clearly you have made up your mind and don’t need any (name removed by moderator)ut.
God bless.

 

[Nadq]

I just looked back at my posts…and I do not see where I said he was not husband material. I don’t think I used the word material, but if you can find it

Anyway, being a Christian does not mean to say we are doormats.
A Christian is not called to suffer needlessly, or to experience things that would damage our soul for the sake of trying to be Christian.
Indeed, staying in a harmful situation would do just that.
This is what happens when people come here with a huge problem, an when presented with the opinions of others (what the forum is about) there is a big about-face.
I wish you well.
Clearly you have made up your mind and don’t need any (name removed by moderator)ut.
God bless.

Hi Pianistclare,

Apologies if I was not clear, I meant that this is the reason, that I am disregarding some of the negative opinions, because you asked me this question.

Apologies also if I have offended you, I did not mean to do that, I appreciate all (name removed by moderator)ut and diversity in opinions. I have not made up my mind about a commitment to him, that is why I am posting the question, but most probably I would decide to invest some more time to explore the situation. What my opinion is firm about is that he should be treated with respect, from our interactions so far I assure you that he clearly deserves that, and I have feelings for him and will not regret these even if nothing works out.

I fully agree about the doormat situation, no one should tolerate or be encouraged to stay in such abusive relationship, but in my case - this is the last thing I could associate even in the slighted degree with him.

 

[Xantippe]

I just looked back at my posts…and I do not see where I said he was not husband material. I don’t think I used the word material, but if you can find it

**I remember somebody else saying that.

The idiom about “husband material” doesn’t sound evil to the American ear–it’s just an idiom. Some people just aren’t ready to put other people first (or at least equal).

And it’s easy to seem like the incarnation of all the virtues via electronic media. You don’t know his character until you have been living there and know him in day-to-day life.

I’m just very concerned that you will hit some sort of immigration problem and decide you “have to” get married on some sort of accelerated schedule that does not meet the needs of your relationship.
**

Anyway, being a Christian does not mean to say we are doormats.
A Christian is not called to suffer needlessly, or to experience things that would damage our soul for the sake of trying to be Christian.
Indeed, staying in a harmful situation would do just that.
This is what happens when people come here with a huge problem, an when presented with the opinions of others (what the forum is about) there is a big about-face.
I wish you well.
Clearly you have made up your mind and don’t need any (name removed by moderator)ut.
God bless.

 

[Nadq]

Xantippe:
OK, apologies again if I somebody meant it in a different way. Still, for me it has a negative connotation and I would not imagine anybody not getting offended, if they are told in the face that they are not the “husband material” I agree, a certain degree of selflessness in action is necessary for a marriage and a selfish person would make both one’s partner and children unhappy in marriage.

I am trying to read some more inexplicit clues in how he is treating people around him, rather than what he is saying about himself, although he is not trying to present himself in an idealistic light and at the very start admitted his mistakes from the past (in an almost confessional manner) and asked me if I could accept him despite his past. But I agree, nothing can replace the personal interactions, the internet communication can not provide me with a complete picture.

He is trying to rush the relationship, but I am putting the brakes, I have not even pronounced the words “I love you” yet, because for me it is a kind of commitment and might create false expectations. My goal is not immigration, so I would not let any benefits to lure me and override my sane judgement on how and when, and if things should develop to the next stage.

 

[Xantippe]

OK, apologies again if I somebody meant it in a different way. Still, for me it has a negative connotation and I would not imagine anybody not getting offended, if they are told in the face that they are not the “husband material” I agree, a certain degree of selflessness in action is necessary for a marriage and a selfish person would make both one’s partner and children unhappy in marriage.

I am trying to read some more inexplicit clues in how he is treating people around him, rather than what he is saying about himself, although he is not trying to present himself in an idealistic light and at the very start admitted his mistakes from the past (in an almost confessional manner) and asked me if I could accept him despite his past. But I agree, nothing can replace the personal interactions, the internet communication can not provide me with a complete picture.

He is trying to rush the relationship, but I am putting the brakes, I have not even pronounced the words “I love you” yet, because for me it is a kind of commitment and might create false expectations. My goal is not immigration, so I would not let any benefits to lure me and override my sane judgement on how and when, and if things should develop to the next stage.

Very good!

Don’t let external forces (like stupid immigration rules) marry at a pace that wouldn’t otherwise seem like a good idea.

 

[smichhertz]

OK, apologies again

It’s really okay. Things easily get lost in translation on the internet. Don’t let it bother you!

I am trying to read some more inexplicit clues in how he is treating people around him, rather than what he is saying about himself, although he is not trying to present himself in an idealistic light and at the very start admitted his mistakes from the past (in an almost confessional manner) and asked me if I could accept him despite his past. But I agree, nothing can replace the personal interactions, the internet communication can not provide me with a complete picture.

That’s good he appears to be honest, but you really don’t know until you get to know him in person. So you’re right that nothing can replace the personal interactions.

He is trying to rush the relationship

Already!?! Didn’t you say you’ve only been communicating for a few days? :bigyikes:

, but I am putting the brakes, I have not even pronounced the words “I love you” yet, because for me it is a kind of commitment and might create false expectations. My goal is not immigration, so I would not let any benefits to lure me and override my sane judgement on how and when, and if things should develop to the next stage.

Yes - I would never use those words unless we’ve dated in person for AT LEAST 6 months, more likely a year.

I don’t mean to scare you, but I’d like to share a quick story - I have a friend. She’s a single mother. She had been pretty adverse to commitment most of her life. She then realized she was getting up there in years and should probably learn to trust people. She then met a guy and he seemed nice. As they got to know each other he pushed a relationship pretty quickly and after 6 months, marriage. She agreed because she felt like her reluctance had caused her to get grow older single and she needed to beat her issues by making a commitment with this guy. Within months, she was pregnant and excited to have her first child. The husband, however, insisted on abortion. This shocked her as he had always been pro-life. She soon began to discover he’d been lying about a lot. He had serious issues, he was an alocholic, he had money stashed away in account that he hadn’t told her about,etc. etc. When she stuck to her guns and refused to have an abortion, he became very abusive (both psychologically and physically). Eventually, she left after he threatened repeatedly (and very calmly) to kill her and the child.

After 8 years of being separate this guy continues to stalk her trying to find her. She can’t have a facebook account, she can’t be very public, she can’t tell many people about her past, she had to cut off all her friends because he told them all manipulative lies, she is constantly worried about her daughter and her own safety. She can’t even have lots of friends over because she’s worried about her address spreading around. He caught wind of where she lived and immediately moved to the area and is now constantly looking for her. She’s changed her name and moved several times, but he keeps persuing her. She can’t even date, because she was so terrified of him finding her, she didn’t get an annulment (she’s since started the process after many MANY assurances of secrecy).

I could go on, but I’ll stop there to be polite and keep the story concise. Please understand, I’m not trying to scare you, but caution you. You absolutely CANNOT allow yourself to lose your head. Get to know him. Set a two year minimum of in person contact before marriage. At least one year before engagement. Usually, things aren’t as bad as the story above if you rush it, but you can still get yourself in a lot of trouble.

Be careful and be safe! God bless you!

 

[Xantippe]

It’s really okay. Things easily get lost in translation on the internet. Don’t let it bother you!

That’s good he appears to be honest, but you really don’t know until you get to know him in person. So you’re right that nothing can replace the personal interactions.

Already!?! Didn’t you say you’ve only been communicating for a few days? :bigyikes:

Yes - I would never use those words unless we’ve dated in person for AT LEAST 6 months, more likely a year.

I don’t mean to scare you, but I like to share a quick story - I have a friend. She’s a single mother. She had been pretty adverse to commitment most of her life. She then realized she was getting up there in years and should probably learn to trust people. She then met a guy and he seemed nice. As they got to know each other he pushed a relationship pretty quickly and after 6 months, marriage. She agree because she felt like her reluctance had caused her to get up there in years and she needed to beat her issues by making a commitment with this guy. Within months, she was pregnant and excited to have her first child. The husband, however, insisted on abortion. This shocked her as he had always been pro-life. She soon began to discover he’d been lying about a lot. He had serious issues, he was an alocholic, he had money stashed away in account that he hadn’t told her about,etc. etc. When she stuck to her guns and refused to have an abortion, he became very abusive (both psychologically and physically). Eventually, she left after he threatened repeatedly (and very calmly) to kill her and the child.

After 8 years of being separate this guy continues to stalk her trying to find her. She can’t have a facebook account, she can’t be very public, she can’t tell many people about her past, she had to cut off all her friends because he told them all manipulative lies, she is constantly worried about her daughter and her own safety. She can’t even have lots of friends over because she’s worried about her address spreading around. He caught wind of where she lived and immediately moved to the area and is now constantly looking for her. She’s changed her name and moved several times, but he keeps persuing her.

I could go on, but I’ll stop there to be polite and keep the story concise. Please understand, I’m not trying to scare you, but caution you. You absolutely CANNOT allow yourself to lose your head. Get to know him. Set a two year minimum of in person contact before marriage. At least one year before engagement. Usually, things aren’t as bad as the story above if you rush it, but you can still get yourself in a lot of trouble.

Be careful and be safe! God bless you!

She’s only seen him for four days, but they’ve been in communication longer.

Two years is kind of a lot for a 34-year-old lady, but lots of in-person time is good. Maybe one year in person plus six month engagement before marriage? At least in the US, that’s how much time parishes want before letting you have a Catholic wedding–I don’t know about Australia. I have to fess up to having gotten married way faster than that, but I was very lucky, and I know a lot of women aren’t so lucky.

As we discussed upthread, “let’s-get-married-quick-so-I-can-stop-being-nice-to-you” is unfortunately a thing.

Being disarmingly frank about past misdeeds is also not necessarily a good sign–if he continues to do many of the same bad things to the present day. There should be a strong track record of good behavior.

Best wishes!

 

[Nadq]

You absolutely CANNOT allow yourself to lose your head. Get to know him.

Thanks for the caution and the wise advice, I will keep my eyes open. Actually I consider this one of the advantages of relationships later in life, one is less blinded by emotions and more experienced to judge a person for what they truly are and not just appear to be.

This might be quite an exception, I realize this, but in spite of my age, I have always had a firm resolution to rather stay single than marry the wrong guy and this has not changed. My parents divorced and it was a pretty awful marriage before that, it caused me a lot of suffering as a child and even later, because one’s family remains one’s family even when you are an adult, but I also had the luxury to learn from the mistake of the others instead of my own.

 

[Nadq]

There should be a strong track record of good behavior.

Yes, there is He is also very passionate about faith and asks himself constantly the question how everything he is doing is contributing to the greater good and how it serves God.

Also my impressions about the support from his family seem to have been a bit exaggerated, he has fully supported himself during his study so far. Only he did not save anything - since he focused on study and that’s why had part-time jobs only, and before that had a few jobs oversees, which were not requiring much qualification. After all, that was just my part of the story and my impressions.

---

Here I would like to close this thread.

Thank you all for the very useful, sincere and well-meant advices, I take the point to take things slowly and get to know him personally.

God bless you and support you with all your good plans and intentions as well!

 

[Nadq]

OK, I need to revive this thread, because there are some new circumstances and I need some external advice, because I am too much into the situation and can not evaluate it rationally right now (I admit it).

He was open enough to share that he has also some student loan and another loan (no shocking amounts though, may be an annual low salary income), and I came to understand that he might find a way to offer me accommodation for a few months, but then subtly hinted that he expects me to take over and support him for the rest of this study and he can get some unemployment benefits, etc.

I am struggling between my feelings - because he is really invested in faith and is fully on board with the idea of chastity before marriage, NFP, etc. and treats me so well, that even when he makes some hints to justly criticize me he does not hurt me or judge me, just makes me feel ashamed of myself.

But the issue is that I have been in a situation, when I was used for money, a guy pleaded to my mercy with the pretense that his mother was ill and I was too young to recognize the deceit and gave him all of savings (equal to 2 salaries), my current BF on the other hand has been in relationship of convenience before he got so serious about faith, and I can’t help feeling used in the whole thing. I understand that even in marriage one might have an issue with money and the other one supports or even both can get in trouble and it should not distort the relationship, but to start like that - I found it somewhat ridiculous that a foreigner, and a woman should support a local in his own country.

I would even go as far as to propose to him to come to my country, I am OK with being the provider, as long as he is kind, and loving and he will get all the due respect from me. And I would be even able to buy an apartment without any credit in a couple of years.
Or even may be I might consider to wait until he graduates… and then we can decide together what is best for a future family.

Just for me it is too much of a responsibility for me as a foreigner to find a job and do well enough to support a student and possibly a child and I am afraid I might not be able to do so well.

What are your thoughts on that?

P.S.: So far, because I am really ambitious I have only been in a circle of fairly successful men, but I don’t think from a Christian point of view this is supposed to be the leading criteria for choosing a husband, it should evolve more around common values.