Romanian Orphans argument against pro-life?

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How to respond to friends who criticize recent anti-abortion law passed in Alabama pointing to 100k orphans in Romania as direct result of mandates by Romanian dictator, Nicolae Ceausescu ? I don’t believe the fate of orphans were caused by anti-abortion law in Romania, but rather by forcing women to have 4 or later 5 children and promoting state-run orphanages (giving one child to orphanage). Nothing like this happens in Poland, where abortion ban is probably 20 years old (Abortion Tourism is not massive there too). What do you think ?
 
Well, you can start of with that.

But also, the quality of life doesn’t determine whether a life should be killed or not. It’s whether we believe an unborn life is just as valuable as a born human being. That’s the main point that they’re deflecting. Otherwise, they would be in favour of killing orphans because they’re suffering.

Also, pro life people are donating. They will say that pro lifers stop caring after birth but pro life pregnancy centers and christian/Catholic charities are prominent. In fact, pro choicers have been attacking these centers recently. Of course, we should also admit that we should always donate and help out more.
 
Romania was a very poor Comunist nation. The US has more people who want to adopt than abortions each year. Moreover, no one is talking about outlawing birth control here.

Overall, I think that the argument is like comparing apples to.orangatangs.
 
I don’t believe the fate of orphans were caused by anti-abortion law in Romania, but rather by forcing women to have 4 or later 5 children
It wasn’t just a ban on abortion & sterilisation for women with less than four children, but also a ban on contraception (which is something that the church also would favour).
 
No matter what the example is, the response is the same. Perceived quality of life should not determine whether or not someone else gets to live or die. There is never a just reason to take away an innocent life.

As to Romania, the problem is not anti-abortion laws. The problem is the government.
 
Alabama is not mandating a ban on contraception. Alabama is criminalizing the murder of the innocent unborn.
With respect to children in orphanages, this comes as a result of a lack of foster care. I think if the people who work in the orphanages treat the children with love and affection that while the life is not an ideal situation, the children could grow up ok. And who knows? One of those orphans could be the one to discover an inexxpensive cure for cancer, or maybe he could figure out a way to bring peace to the mid-east.
 
Then she should be for killing those orphans and if she isn’t then it is because being alive and being an orphan is better than being dead. In that case, being an orphan is the better alternative.
 
Comparing Romanian orphans to babies in the womb is like comparing apples and oranges. They are two fundamentally different things.
 
Wouldn’t it make sense to use a source as well?
 
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I am looking for the source of the number.

In the meantime, in the US there is a difference between those who want to adopt an infant and those willing to take on the potential difficulties of children who have been involved in the foster care system.
 
So, why did Ceausescu want to increase his population?

He was installed by the Soviets to run Romania under Stalinist principles, but was perceived as being free-thinking and independent. I wasn’t paying attention in the 1970’s to have my own opinion about him. 😉 He was president for 15 years.

He wanted Romania to become a major European power, so he decided oil was the way to do that. He borrowed in order to build all his refineries-- but they didn’t produce the profits he was looking for. So suddenly, Romania has about $10B in 1981 dollars in debt. Plus, at the same time, they were suffering from crop failures and earthquake damage.

So, as frequently happens in Communist/Stalinist regimes, the birthrate was declining. Ceausescu wanted to reverse that, and increase the population for 25M to 30M. But even though he was trying to increase the population, the conditions were generally impoverished, while he and his inner circle had palaces, expensive cars, other luxury items, and helped themselves to the public treasury. (Which also happens in Communist/Stalinist regimes.) So eventually, a revolution happened, they were captured, given a show trial, and were executed. The end.

So, looking up state orphanages and Decree 770
Ceaușescu borrowed the 1930s Stalinist dogma that population growth would fuel economic growth and fused this idea with the conservatism of his rural childhood. In the first year of his rule, his government issued Decree 770, which outlawed abortion for women under 40 with fewer than four children. “The foetus is the property of the entire society,” Ceaușescu announced. “Anyone who avoids having children is a deserter who abandons the laws of national continuity.”
(The birth rate doubled, all childless persons regardless of sex or marital status were required to pay a fine, all women with fewer than 4 children were banned from abortions, motherhood became a state duty, women were examined four times per year for signs of pregnancy and were punished if they failed to give birth.)
This policy, coupled with Romania’s poverty, meant that more and more unwanted children were abandoned to state care. No one knows how many. Estimates for the number of children in orphanages in 1989 start at 100,000 and go up from there. Since the second world war, there had been a system of state institutions for children. But after 1982, when Ceaușescu redirected most of the budget to paying off the national debt, the economy tanked and conditions in the orphanages suffered. Electricity and heat were often intermittent, there were not enough staff, there was not enough food. Physical needs were assessed, emotional needs were ignored. Doctors and professionals were denied access to foreign periodicals and research, nurses were woefully undertrained (many orphans contracted HIV because hypodermic needles were seldom sterilised) and developmental delays were routinely diagnosed as mental disability. Institutional abuse flourished unchecked. While some caretakers did their best, others stole food from the orphanage kitchens and drugged their charges into docility.
 
So, I’m seeing more “communism is bad” than “protecting life is bad.” Ceausescu tried social engineering, and like most social engineers, failed badly. What he did— forcing fertility on people and penalizing people for not reproducing according to his preferences-- is what we do with livestock, not with fellow humans.

In the case of Alabama and the other states, however, rather than forcing people to conceive against their will, we’re looking at people who have already conceived-- whether they intended to or not-- and we’re saying, “Congratulations. Now step up and be responsible for the life you created.” Rather than reproducing-- and then deciding not to be responsible for their actions-- and thereby violating someone else’s human rights in the process.
 
Simply put, there is no argument that would justify an abortion. God gives life and God is the only one who can justifiably take a life.
 
And I mentioned that situation above in my second reply to Cecelia.

First, a lot of first-time parents, who frequently have little exposure to raising children, want babies because they are unsure about handling a child who potentially has problems.

Second, the long-standing (but possibly not current) policies of family reunification and placing children with foster or adoptive parents of the same ethnicity each has contributed to a back-log in the foster care system in the US.
 
But you said that the US had more wannabe adopters than aborted babes.
Since we were talking about babies, I did not qualify the that the people who want to adopt are trying to adopt babies rather than older children.
 
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As you seem to be passionate about pro-life issues, knowing that the care of children is a very important pro life issue, you might want to brush up on the current policies, etc.

Honestly, I know dozens of foster and foster to adopt families. The ethnicity of children, parents, siblings has never been an issue for either foster or foster to adopt since I have been involved in the pro life movement. Cannot count the number of newborns that my friends have carried home from the hospital who went on to be adopted.

They are just kids, kids who need a loving family.

If one family from every congregation in the US, inclusive of all denominations, just one family in that congregation took in one child there would be no children languishing in the foster care system. Imagine that, every child would have a loving home.

Before people ask, it was our life goal to be foster/adoptive parents. If my husband had not developed a fatal health condition, I’d be a foster mom now. So, I work to spread light about adoption.

I’ve sat down with a regional Planned Parenthood Director and worked together to try to educate the public about adoption, to erase some of the cobwebby mythology that has taken root in the US.
 
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