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Valtiel
Guest
is the pivatal passage for the faith alone doctrine, how do I handle this???
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E.E.N.S
Guest
9 “Thou shalt be saved”… To confess the Lord Jesus, and to call upon the name of the Lord (ver. 13) is not barely the professing a belief in the person of Christ; but moreover, implies a belief of his whole doctrine, and an obedience to his law; without which, the calling him Lord will save no man. St. Matt. 7. 21.
Plus about 3 dozen other verses in the Bible stating opposingly toward ‘faith alone.’
Plus about 3 dozen other verses in the Bible stating opposingly toward ‘faith alone.’
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Lazerlike42
Guest
Steven D. Greydanus:
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Dan-Man916
Guest
1 verse does not make an entire theology.
Respond with these verses and you will begin a nice game of Scripture Ping Pong:
Matt 7:21 not everyone who says Lord Lord will be saved, only those who…
James 2:24,26 Faith without works is dead. We are not justified by faith alone
Phil 2:12 Continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling
Hebrews 5:9 Christ is the source of salvation to all those who obey him.
Rom 1:5; 16:26 Obedience comes from faith
Gal 5:6 the only thing that counts is faith expressed through love
1Cor. 9:27 Paul warns against a misleading assurance
1John 1:9 any one who claims to be in the light and hates is still in darkness
1John 4:20 If one says, “I love God,” yet hates his brother, he is a liar.
The free will to reject the gift of eternal life:
2Thess 1:8-9 He will punish those who do not obey the gospel
1Cor 6:9-10 those doing wicked deeds will not inherit the kingdom of God
Gal 5:19-21 I warn you, those who live like this will not inherit the Kingdom
1John 5:16-17 There is a mortal sin that leads to death.
Matt 12:31,32 anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be saved
2 Peter 2:20-22 if they come to know the Lord and are then entangled in sin, they are worse off then they were as unbeleivers
Remaining “In Christ”
John 15:4-6 Remain in me, and I will remain in you (notice the order)
Heb 9:27 We are judged after our death.
Heb 10:18 Once forgiven there is no further sacrifice for sin
Heb 10:26 If we keep on sinning after coming to knowledge….
Luke 10:16 Establishes the authority of the apostles as condition for acceptance or rejection of Christ
Respond with these verses and you will begin a nice game of Scripture Ping Pong:
Matt 7:21 not everyone who says Lord Lord will be saved, only those who…
James 2:24,26 Faith without works is dead. We are not justified by faith alone
Phil 2:12 Continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling
Hebrews 5:9 Christ is the source of salvation to all those who obey him.
Rom 1:5; 16:26 Obedience comes from faith
Gal 5:6 the only thing that counts is faith expressed through love
1Cor. 9:27 Paul warns against a misleading assurance
1John 1:9 any one who claims to be in the light and hates is still in darkness
1John 4:20 If one says, “I love God,” yet hates his brother, he is a liar.
The free will to reject the gift of eternal life:
2Thess 1:8-9 He will punish those who do not obey the gospel
1Cor 6:9-10 those doing wicked deeds will not inherit the kingdom of God
Gal 5:19-21 I warn you, those who live like this will not inherit the Kingdom
1John 5:16-17 There is a mortal sin that leads to death.
Matt 12:31,32 anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be saved
2 Peter 2:20-22 if they come to know the Lord and are then entangled in sin, they are worse off then they were as unbeleivers
Remaining “In Christ”
John 15:4-6 Remain in me, and I will remain in you (notice the order)
Heb 9:27 We are judged after our death.
Heb 10:18 Once forgiven there is no further sacrifice for sin
Heb 10:26 If we keep on sinning after coming to knowledge….
Luke 10:16 Establishes the authority of the apostles as condition for acceptance or rejection of Christ
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Lazerlike42
Guest
This is the most important one, since it directly refutes the interpretation they are providing:
“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord!’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of My Father in heaven.” (Matthew 7:21)
“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord!’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of My Father in heaven.” (Matthew 7:21)
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BibleReader
Guest
Simple: God despises “faith alone.” Proof: The Parable of the Good Samaritan. A robber leaves a robbery victim in critical condition in the gutter. A priest passes by, making a wide circle around the victim in the gutter. *He *represents “faith without works.” A Levite (of the priestly tribe) passes by, making a wide circle around the victim in the gutter. *He too *represents “faith without works.”
Finally, a Samaritan, regarded by Jesus’ Jewish listeners as “not having faith,” by definition, passes by. He stops, bandages the guy up, takes him to an inn, pays for his room and board, leaves extra money, and makes plans to pay more money. *He *represents “works without faith (sort of).”
*Clearly, *who does Jesus prefer? “Mr. Faith-Alone #1”? “Mr. Faith-Alone #2”? Or “Mr. Works-Without-Faith (Sort Of)”?
See the answer in Luke 10:30-37.
Now, was Paul stupid? No. The answer is that Paul emphasizes different things at different times, and we have to be careful to not mindlessly enslave ourselves to that emphasis.
If Paul was really a Lutheran, why does he write what he writes at 1 Corinthians 13:13?
So, relax! Salvation is NOT “by faith alone.” God really does despise “faith alone.”
Instead, faith is INHERENTLY a “works machine.”
In effect, if we symbolize a “works machine” with this…
cartoonclipart.com/pages/steamshovel.html
…then this is what “faith” looks like…
cartoonclipart.com/pages/steamshovel.html.
Never, not once in the history of salvation, did the Holy Spirit give out a grace of faith which is dead to works. It never happened.
“Faith alone” does not really exist.
Proof: In the Parable of the Good Samaritan, which of the three would Jesus say had “faith”? “Mr. Faith-Alone #1”? “Mr. Faith-Alone #2”? Or “Mr. Works-Without-Faith (Sort Of)”?
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EA_Man
Guest
Works are evidence of faith. They do not add to nor do they maintain salvation. They are the product of a right relationship with Jesus Christ. They do not enable faith, they do not confer grace.
Peace
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Lazerlike42
Guest
If they are but a product and evidence, then why does James speak of them as a seperate entity which works in union with faith?
“You see that faith was active together with his works, and by works, faith was perfected.”
Also, if they are evidence, why are we judged by them? (Romans 2:6-8, Revelation 20:13-14) Wouldn’t we be judged simply by our faith? Can’t God read our heart? Does He really need evidence to know if we have true faith?
I’m very confused…
Why didn’t He justify Abram when he had faith in Genesis 12, but instead wait until Abraham performed works and “sacrificed” his son in Genesis 22? Why does James tell us that it was Abraham’s works that justified him, instead of saying it was his faith that justified him but that his works proved it? Why does God tell Abraham that He will bless him “because [he] has done this thing” (Genesis 22:16)?
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EA_Man
Guest
For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. (Eph. 2:8-10)
We are saved by God’s grace, received through our faith. We are to live IN God’s grace, BY FAITH as well. And if we do, then it is UNTO GOOD WORKS. The works are the by-product of grace received and faith in Jesus Christ.
Peace
We are saved by God’s grace, received through our faith. We are to live IN God’s grace, BY FAITH as well. And if we do, then it is UNTO GOOD WORKS. The works are the by-product of grace received and faith in Jesus Christ.
Peace
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E.E.N.S
Guest
True we are saved by grace through faith working in love…it is the grace that saves us - through our faith, BUT one cannot have faith without works (well we can, but it is a DEAD faith!)
Faith and works go hand and hand…and we will be judged by our works like Paul tell us.
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On_my_way
Guest
Works are not a by-product of faith. Faith and works go hand in hand. They stand side by side. You can have all the Faith and grace in the world, but if you turn your back on someone who is in need of help then your Faith is dead. Again why did the Apostles go out and do the work of Jesus? They already had all the Faith in the world. We should all look at what all the Apostles did and follow in there footsteps. Faith and Grace is dead if all you do is sit on it. Faith and Grace requires us to extend our hands and move our feet, not stand in one place and wait just because you have Faith and grace. People who believe that they don’t have to do any works because belief and Faith is all you need are already dead.
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Lazerlike42
Guest
But you just provided another verse… you didn’t answer my questions.
Please, can you?
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adnauseum
Guest
I was thinking the very same thing.But you just provided another verse… you didn’t answer my questions.
I am really impressed with the Catholic apologists in this thread. Awesome replies. Convinces me beyond doubt the Church has always had the truth.
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BibleReader
Guest
Nah, I disagree.
Faith and works are not ultimately philosophically distinguishable. Works are “faith in motion.” Faith is a work. If one has “faith,” one has “works will.” Proof: No one in the history of the world has ever had just “faith,” dead to works, generated by the Grace of Faith.
Faith and “works” are not so fundamentally distinguishable that works are mere “evidence of” faith. Sorry, but saying that I have “faith alone,” so that I am saved, is like saying, “I have bread, but without the grain.”
The error of Luther is assuming that there is a fundamental distinction between the two.
There is not.
As JPII simply put it, “Salvation is not by faith alone.”
“Faith alone” is a unicorn. It never existed.
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BibleReader
Guest
Additionally, re-read the Parable of the Good Samaritan. Clearly, both of the two men having “faith alone” were being implicitly condemned.
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EA_Man
Guest
You are not judged by what you do! What you do is evidence of what you are. You are judged by Christ on the basis of what you are. The fruit you bear is evidence of the type of tree you are. A bad tree cannot bring forth good fruit…If they are but a product and evidence, then why does James speak of them as a seperate entity which works in union with faith?
“You see that faith was active together with his works, and by works, faith was perfected.”
Also, if they are evidence, why are we judged by them? (Romans 2:6-8, Revelation 20:13-14) Wouldn’t we be judged simply by our faith? Can’t God read our heart? Does He really need evidence to know if we have true faith?
I’m very confused…
Abraham’s works justified him from the perspective that they were evidence of the type of faith he had. Works are the outworking of Christ’s presence in us, they aren’t something we do to prove faith.
Legalism is attempting to prove our righteousness to God through our works.
Peace
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On_my_way
Guest
So what if a tree is good but still can’t bare fruit? Isn’t that tree a dead tree. I say that because not all good trees give fruit.
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Lazerlike42
Guest
But Revelation says specifically that the dead will be judged based on their deeds. Also, I know a lot of atheists who do lots of wonderful things, but they’re bad trees… dead trees in fact. If we are judged by what we are, then why does John tell us differently in Revelation, and why does Paul say that we will be rewarded based on out works, and then go on to say it is a matter of salvation in Romans 2?
Why does James say specifically that his works justified him and not say anything about evidence or perspectives or anything like that? Also, can you show me a Bible verse which explains how Abraham’s justification was about perspective and evidence?
I agree with that completely, but I never though they were. I asked why James and God said that Abraham was justified by his works and why it didn’t say that his works were only a proof of his faith. You’re the one that seemed to say that works only prove faith. I was asking why the Bible doesn’t say that.
But I’ve been told that Catholics don’t try to prove righteousness to God through works, and that they know their works only come from God’s Grace. Also, where does it say this about legalism in the Bible?
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EA_Man
Guest
On my way:
Even so every good tree brings forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree brings forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that brings not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. (Matt. 7:17-20)
Your fruit does not determine what kind of tree you are. The kind of tree you are determines what kind of fruit you produce. A good tree can produce only good fruit. A bad tree can produce only bad fruit. The fruit, rather than determine the kind of tree, exposes the tree for what kind it already is.
Peace
It doesn’t work that way. Let’s look at what Jesus is saying here:
Even so every good tree brings forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree brings forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that brings not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. (Matt. 7:17-20)
Your fruit does not determine what kind of tree you are. The kind of tree you are determines what kind of fruit you produce. A good tree can produce only good fruit. A bad tree can produce only bad fruit. The fruit, rather than determine the kind of tree, exposes the tree for what kind it already is.
Peace
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E.E.N.S
Guest
In verses such as Eph 2:8-9 and Rom 3:28 St. Paul teaches that Christians are not required to perform the works (Greek: ergon) of the Jewish faith to be saved (e.g., circumcision, dietary regulations, purification rituals, etc.)
Elsewhere in Scripture Christians are commanded to perform works (Greek: ergon) of charity to give an external, tangible expression of their interior faith and commitment to Christ: James 2:14-26; James 5:20; 1 Cor 13:2; Gal 6:9; Rev 22:12; Rom 2:5-7, Gal 5:6; Matt 25:31-46; 2 Cor 5:10; Rev 14:13; Rev 20:12-13; 1 Cor 15:58; Heb 6:10; Matt 7:21; Matt 19:16-21; Phil 2:12-13; 1 John 3:7, 1 John 3:21-22.
The phrase “faith alone” appears only once in the Bible: “See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone” (James 2:24)
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