Romans 10:9

[Pax]

EA_Man:

For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. (Eph. 2:8-10)

We are saved by God’s grace, received through our faith. We are to live IN God’s grace, BY FAITH as well. And if we do, then it is UNTO GOOD WORKS. The works are the by-product of grace received and faith in Jesus Christ.

Peace

EA_Man,

You are missing something quite profound in Eph. 2:8-10. Please note that the verses speak of works two different times. The first time the word occurs, Paul is telling us that there is nothing that we can do to come into a state of justification before God. It is pure gift and by the grace of God. In the second instance, we notice that the works that we are to do after being justified are not merely the by-product of grace received. Instead the works we are to do were prepared and ordained by God beforehand. In other words the works we are to do are established even before we are justified. These works are not optional. These works are by grace and we are, therefore, nothing less than “God’s workmanship.” This is more than simply a by-product of grace. This aspect of being “God’s workmanship” encompasses both faith and works in the action of justification. If you separate them you have something other than what God intended.

This set of verses is intimately tied and related to James 2:24. Both Paul and James teach a living faith as opposed to a dead faith. In Galatians 5:6 Paul sums it all up quite beautifully by saying, “For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is of any avail, but faith working through love.” In Galatians 6:15-16 the apostle also says, "For neither circumcision counts for anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation. Peace and mercy be upon all who walk by this rule, upon the Israel of God." Again, in 1 Cor 7:19, Paul says, “For neither circumcision counts for anything nor uncircumcision, but keeping the commandments of God.”

I have supplied these quotes in conjunction with Eph 2:8-10 because Paul’s beef with the issue of works is related to the Judaizers. Paul never intends anyone to believe that the moral law is not essential to salvation. He argues, as do all of the apostles, that everything is by grace. Even our works are totally by grace and they are nothing less than the work of the Father’s hands in our hearts, minds, souls, and bodies. Just as our initial justification is a gift and by grace, so also are all of the works that were prepared before hand. Faith and works are both by grace and they are inseparable.

Paul even says that faith is a work[1Thess 1:3]. Jesus says that faith is a work[John 6:27-28] There is another place in scripture where we learn the same thing. In John’s vision in the book of Revelation, Jesus warns members of the church at Ephesus that they might be destroyed if they do not repent and return to the love they once had. This is very clear in Rev 2:4-5 where Jesus says, “But I have this against you, that you have abandoned the love you had at first. Remember then from what you have fallen, repent and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent.” Then again just before addressing the transgressions of the church at Thyatira, Jesus says in Rev 2:19 that, “I know your works, your love and faith and service and patient endurance, and that your latter works exceed the first.” These verses are significant in two ways. They show the necessity of love in the plan of salvation, and they show that both love and faith are referred to as works. We are saved by faith and works and not by faith alone.

 

[Lazerlike42]

EA_Man:

This is nonsense.

Do you mean to tell me that Paul says that the mosaic law cannot save us but he intentionally left out general works because he held them in a higher regard?

You don’t actually mean that, right?

Peace

Well, yes, he does hold laws like “thou shalt not kill” in a higher regard than he holds laws about sacrificing doves to atone for menstruation. If you read the entire section all the way from Romans 2-4, you will see he begins by talking about works of the law, and several times throughout he mentions circumcision. What Paul is concerned with is the Jewish Christians who were demanding that new Christians follow ceremonial laws. He is concerendd with the debate which was settled in Acts 15 where it was deteremined that circumcision was not required.

As a matter of fact, Paul uses the words “works of the law” throughout, which is very significant in light of the Dead Sea Scrolls. The Scrolls provide strong evidence to show that the phrase “works of the law” was a common way to refer to ceremonial laws at the time of Jesus. We have phrases today which have come to have certain meanings. For example, the phrase “boob tube” is commonly used to refer to the television. If readers 2000 years from now saw that, there’s no telling what they may think it meant, because it certainly doesn’t give any indication that it has anything to do with television. The phrase “works of the law” was a phrase that was used at the time of Christ to describe the things you had to do to follow Mosaic Law. This is something that we could extrapolate on our own, but there was arguement about it between Protestants and Catholics. However, thanks to these discoveries, when we read this phrase in the Scriptures we know exactly what it means.

Paul most certainly does mean that the Mosaic Law can’t save us. He certainly doesn’t mean works can save us either. They are, however, required.

Pretend you are going to a club. Only your money (faith) can get you in. There is no other way to get in no matter what you do. If you show up though without your ID (works), they are gonna say, “yeah we see your money but we can’t let you in without the ID.” The ID doesn’t get us into the club, the money is what actually gets us in. The ID is necessary however in that without it we can’t go in, even though it has no active role in getting us in.

 

[Lazerlike42]

EA_Man:

Your soteriology is messed up.

Listen, we don’t go to hell because we reject Jesus Christ. We are already on our way to hell and will end up there unless we come to Jesus Christ.

Peace

Right… but my point is the atheists, who are already on their way to Hell because they haven’t come to Jesus Christ, often bear wonderful fruit. If absolutely no bad tree whatsoever can bear good fruit, and absolutely no good tree whatsoever can bear bad fruit, then how do the atheists do it?

 

[Pax]

EA_Man:

Please elaborate. Please list ALL of those things that we must DO.

Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect. Matthew 5:48

Peace

What must we do? How about all of the following through the grace of God.

Luke 13:3
No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all perish as they did.

Luke 9:23
Then he said to them all, "If any want to become my followers, let them deny themselves and take up their cross daily and follow me.

Luke 10:25-37
“Teacher,” he said, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?” He said to him, “What is written in the law? What do you read there?” He answered, “You shall love the Lord your God with all all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind; and your neighbor as yourself.” And he said to him, “You have given the right answer; do this, and you will live.”

Matt 7:21
"Not everyone who says to me, "Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.

Rom 6:16
Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?

Gal 6:7-9
Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for you reap whatever you sow. If you sow to your own flesh, you will reap corruption from the flesh; but if you sow to the Spirit, you will reap eternal life from the Spirit. So let us not grow weary in doing what is right, for we will reap at harvest time, if we do not give up.

Jam 1:12-15
12 Blessed is anyone who endures temptation. Such a one has stood the test and will receive the crown of life that the Lord has promised to those who love him.

James 2:5
Has not God chosen the poor in the world to be rich in faith and to be heirs of the kingdom that he has promised to those who love him?

John 14:21
They who have my commandments and keep them are those who love me; and those who love me will be loved by my Father, and I will love them and reveal myself to them."

1John 4:20
Those who say, “I love God,” and hate their brothers or sisters, are liars; for those who do not love a brother or sister whom they have seen, cannot love God whom they have not seen.

1 John 5:1-3
By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments. For the love of God is this, that we obey his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome,

1Cor 2:9
But, as it is written, "What no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the human heart conceived, what God has prepared for those who love him"

Rom 2:6-7
For he will repay according to each one’s deeds: to those who by patiently doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;

Phil 2:12
12 Therefore, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed me, not only in my presence, but much more now in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;

Rom 8:12
12 So then, brothers and sisters, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh-for if you live according to the flesh, you will die;** but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.**

Rom 8:17
and if children, then heirs, heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ-**if, in fact, we suffer with him ** so that we may also be glorified with him.

Rom 11:22
Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness toward you,** provided ** you continue in his kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.

Col 1:21-23
And you who were once estranged and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, he has now reconciled in his fleshly body through death, so as to present you holy and blameless and irreproachable before him-provided that you continue securely established and steadfast in the faith, without shifting from the hope promised by the gospel that you heard,

Rev 22:11
Let the evildoer still do evil, and the filthy still be filthy, and the righteous still do right, and the holy still be holy."

2 Thess 7-9
when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God **and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. ** These will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, separated from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, when he comes to be glorified by his saints

Heb 5:9
and having been made perfect,** he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him**,

1 John 2:17
And the world and its desire are passing away, but those who do the will of God live forever.

 

[Pax]

EA_Man:

You are not judged by what you do! What you do is evidence of what you are. You are judged by Christ on the basis of what you are.
…

Abraham’s works justified him from the perspective that they were evidence of the type of faith he had. Works are the outworking of Christ’s presence in us, they aren’t something we do to prove faith.

…

Peace

Please compare your statements to those of the apostle James. In James 2:20-24 it says, Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, and the scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness”; and he was called the friend of God. You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone."

It does not appear that your understanding in any way corresponds to the teaching of apostle. James does not say that Abraham’s works were evidence of the type of faith he had. Instead he tells us that Abraham was justified by works. Then James tells us that Abraham’s “faith was completed by works.” Furthermore, James then goes on to say that "by this the scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness;”

There is a significant difference between your understanding and the clear words of scripture.

 

[adnauseum]

From today’s readings:

*Matthew 16:27
*
For the Son of Man will come with his angels in his Father’s glory,
and then he will repay each according to his conduct.

 

[BibleReader]

blackfish152:

lets remember the Thief on the cross!

He had faith. he didnt do much work(unless he offered up his suffering-which he prob did,)But he is the prime example of someone saved primarialy on belief, without the obedience.

But one thing is for sure, his faith would have been in vain, if he was taken off the cross, and didnt die, and was freed. to revert back to his earlier life of sin-and neglected to be odedient to the gospel.

So I think one can be saved simply by belief, but only on your death bed. In every other situation works(obedience to the teachings of the Gospel ie the Church is absolutely essential)

m.

My point was that faith converts one into a “works machine.” Becoming a “works machine” is *of the essence of *faith.

So, it is not surprising that we see the good thief engage in a good work: Even from his cross, he publicly tells the other thief to shut up and leave Christ alone!!!

Then he humbles himself before Christ: “Remember me when you are in Paradise.” In effect he was publicly declaring, “I am human garbage, not worth your spit. It will be an honor if you even think of human garbage like me!”

Now THOSE are good works!

 

[EA_Man]

Pax:

Please compare your statements to those of the apostle James. In James 2:20-24 it says, Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, and the scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness”; and he was called the friend of God. You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone."

It does not appear that your understanding in any way corresponds to the teaching of apostle. James does not say that Abraham’s works were evidence of the type of faith he had. Instead he tells us that Abraham was justified by works. Then James tells us that Abraham’s “faith was completed by works.” Furthermore, James then goes on to say that "by this the scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness;”

There is a significant difference between your understanding and the clear words of scripture.

James is not talking about REAL faith. James is not saying that if I have real faith in Jesus Christ that I cannot be justified unless I add works to my real faith. He is not contradicting Paul’s teaching that I am justified solely “by grace through faith.” Rather, James is writing to those who would SAY they have faith – and thus claim justification.

We know James isn’t talking about REAL faith because he attributes the kind of faith he is talking about to even the demons.He says, “Do you believe that there is one God? You do well.The demons also believe, and tremble.” Here we can see the vast difference between REAL faith – the kind of faith necessary for salvation – and “said faith” – the kind of faith which even the demons possess. “Said faith” is assent to the Truth. “Real faith” is surrender to the Truth.The Devil and his demons know the Truth. They know Jesus isSaviour. But knowing this, assenting to this Truth, has done nothingbut bring them further condemnation.

It is only if we surrender ourselves to the Truth we believe that we have real faith.James is saying that if you have real faith you will surrenderyourselves fully to the One in whom you trust. And he is saying thatsuch a surrender will always produce the fruit of good works. Real faith ALWAYS results in good works. No other outcome is possible.

Peace

 

[Pax]

EA_Man:

James is not talking about REAL faith. James is not saying that if I have real faith in Jesus Christ that I cannot be justified unless I add works to my real faith. He is not contradicting Paul’s teaching that I am justified solely “by grace through faith.” Rather, James is writing to those who would SAY they have faith – and thus claim justification.

We know James isn’t talking about REAL faith because he attributes the kind of faith he is talking about to even the demons.He says, “Do you believe that there is one God? You do well.The demons also believe, and tremble.” Here we can see the vast difference between REAL faith – the kind of faith necessary for salvation – and “said faith” – the kind of faith which even the demons possess. “Said faith” is assent to the Truth. “Real faith” is surrender to the Truth.The Devil and his demons know the Truth. They know Jesus isSaviour. But knowing this, assenting to this Truth, has done nothingbut bring them further condemnation.

It is only if we surrender ourselves to the Truth we believe that we have real faith.James is saying that if you have real faith you will surrenderyourselves fully to the One in whom you trust. And he is saying thatsuch a surrender will always produce the fruit of good works. Real faith ALWAYS results in good works. No other outcome is possible.

Peace

EA_Man,

You are correct in your assessment of the mental assent of the demons, but it is a mistake to attempt to suggest that this means that the rest of what James is referring to is not “REAL faith.” James uses the demons in contrast to a genuine living faith. You are ignoring the clear words of the apostle. James uses the term “justifed” and he connects this word to works. James knows what the term “justification” means. He also says, " You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works"[James 2:22]. Clearly the apostle is talking about the relationship of faith and works and how we are justified, and he makes it clear that faith was active along with works and that faith was completed by works.

Your contention that James is not talking about “REAL faith” is not at all supported by the text. The apostle would have had to say something quite different in order for your view to be correct.

You are right in that James and Paul do not contradict one another. The problem lies in your understanding of Paul.

Paul uses many provisional terms in his writings about salvation. Here are a few and they will give you a better appreciation for what the apostle is really saying:

Romans 11: 20-21
That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast only through faith. So do not become proud, but stand in awe. For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, **provided you continue ** in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off.

2 Timothy 2: 11-13
The saying is sure: If we have died with him, we shall also live with him; if we endure, we shall also reign with him; if we deny him, he also will deny us; if we are faithless, he remains faithful-- for he cannot deny himself.

Romans 2:6-8
For he will render to every man according to his works:** to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;** but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury.

1 Timothy 2:15
Yet woman will be saved through bearing children,** if she continues in faith and love and holiness, with modesty.**

Philippians 2: 12
Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, with fear and trembling;work out your own salvation

Colossians 1: 21-23
And you, who once were estranged and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and irreproachable before him, provided that you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which has been preached to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister.

Galatians 5: 19-21
Now the works of the flesh are plain: fornication, impurity, licentiousness, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, anger, selfishness, dissension, party spirit, envy, drunkenness, carousing, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

 

[Pax]

EA_Man:

James is not talking about REAL faith. James is not saying that if I have real faith in Jesus Christ that I cannot be justified unless I add works to my real faith.
…
…
Peace

Please be advised that Catholic teaching does not coincide with your expression above. I would refer you to my earlier use and explanation of Eph 2:8-10. The works that are referred to are all by grace…they are the works that God has prepared and ordained prior to our being justified. We are His “workmanship” and not our own workmanship. Perhaps, some exploration of this will help.

A person could believe in the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit and that Jesus died for our sins and that we are saved by His suffering, death, and resurrection. At the same time, that person can then either live by the Spirit or they can live in the flesh. If they live in the Spirit they will be saved, but if they live in the flesh they will die. You can read all about this in the Book of Romans.

The person that lives by the Spirit is “God’s workmanship” and that person bears fruit and lives in friendship with God. That person has been made holy, and will by the grace of God lead a holy life. The life of holiness grows through the process of sanctification which is wrought by God’s grace. Sanctification is more of God’s workmanship.

The person that believes but does not live by the Spirit is living in the flesh. Paul condemns this. Living in the flesh (our workmanship) as a form of idolatry. Our free will is such that we can reject God at anytime and choose ourselves instead. God’s grace is the great enabler. We can do nothing of ourselves. God’s grace enables, but it does not force us. It is for this reason that Paul is continually warning the Churches about back sliding, and returning to the sinful ways of their former selves.

I hope the following passages of scripture will give you a sense of the power attached to grace and what it does for us. These verses speak volumnes about what grace, justification, and sanctification are all about. God doesn’t simply want to impute righteousness. God wants us to be truly righteous and to be His “workmanship.”

Isaiah 55:11
so shall my word be that goes forth from my mouth; it shall not return to me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and prosper in the thing for which I sent it.

Psalm 94:17-19
If the LORD had not been my help, my soul would soon have lived in the land of silence. When I thought, “My foot is slipping,” your steadfast love, O LORD, held me up.

2 Cor 3:5-6
Not that we are competent of ourselves to claim anything as coming from us; our competence is from God, who has made us competent…

1 Cor 15:58
Therefore, my beloved, be steadfast, immovable, always excelling in the work of the Lord, because you know that in the Lord your labor is not in vain.

1 Cor 10:13
God is faithful, and he will not let you be tested beyond your strength, but with the testing he will also provide the way out so that you may be able to endure it.

Eph 3:16
I pray that, according to the riches of his glory, he may grant that you may be strengthened in your inner being with power through his Spirit,

Eph 3:20
Now to him who by the power at work within us is able to accomplish abundantly far more than all we can ask or imagine,

Eph 6:10-11
Finally, be strong in the Lord and in the strength of his power. Put on the whole armor of God, so that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

Phil 4:13
I can do all things through him who strengthens me.

Col 1:11
May you be made strong with all the strength that comes from his glorious power, and may you be prepared to endure everything with joy

2 Thess 1:11
To this end we always pray for you, asking that our God will make you worthy of his call and will fulfill by his power every good resolve and work of faith, so that the name of our Lord Jesus may be glorified in you, and you in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Thess 3:3
But the Lord is faithful; he will strengthen you and guard you from the evil one.

2 Tim 1:7
for God did not give us a spirit of cowardice, but rather a spirit of power and of love and of self-discipline.

2 Tim 3:2- 5
For people will be lovers of themselves, … lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, holding to the outward form of godliness but denying its power.

Heb 13:9
Do not be carried away by all kinds of strange teachings; for it is well for the heart to be strengthened by grace, not by regulations about food, which have not benefited those who observe them.

John 15:5
I am the vine, you are the branches. Those who abide in me and I in them bear much fruit, because apart from me you can do nothing.

 

[Lazerlike42]

I also like to give this example to explain why salvation is still a gift. Imagine a father (God) and his constantly misbehaving son (us) are at the toy store. The boy says, “Daddy, if I clean the kitchen will you buy me this toy?” The father replies, “No, son, you cannot earn a toy simply by doing good and by doing what you ought to be doing anyways.” The son then says, “Ok Daddy, but will you give it to me as a gift for my birthday?” The father says to the son, “Yes, son, I will, but only if you keep your room clean and behave and do what I tell you.” The boy does so, and the father gives him the gift on his birthday. It’s still a gift, but if the boy had not done what he was supposed to, he would not have gotten it.

 

[EA_Man]

Lazerlike42:

Well, yes, he does hold laws like “thou shalt not kill” in a higher regard than he holds laws about sacrificing doves to atone for menstruation. If you read the entire section all the way from Romans 2-4, you will see he begins by talking about works of the law, and several times throughout he mentions circumcision. What Paul is concerned with is the Jewish Christians who were demanding that new Christians follow ceremonial laws. He is concerendd with the debate which was settled in Acts 15 where it was deteremined that circumcision was not required.

As a matter of fact, Paul uses the words “works of the law” throughout, which is very significant in light of the Dead Sea Scrolls. The Scrolls provide strong evidence to show that the phrase “works of the law” was a common way to refer to ceremonial laws at the time of Jesus. We have phrases today which have come to have certain meanings. For example, the phrase “boob tube” is commonly used to refer to the television. If readers 2000 years from now saw that, there’s no telling what they may think it meant, because it certainly doesn’t give any indication that it has anything to do with television. The phrase “works of the law” was a phrase that was used at the time of Christ to describe the things you had to do to follow Mosaic Law. This is something that we could extrapolate on our own, but there was arguement about it between Protestants and Catholics. However, thanks to these discoveries, when we read this phrase in the Scriptures we know exactly what it means.

Paul most certainly does mean that the Mosaic Law can’t save us. He certainly doesn’t mean works can save us either. They are, however, required.

Pretend you are going to a club. Only your money (faith) can get you in. There is no other way to get in no matter what you do. If you show up though without your ID (works), they are gonna say, “yeah we see your money but we can’t let you in without the ID.” The ID doesn’t get us into the club, the money is what actually gets us in. The ID is necessary however in that without it we can’t go in, even though it has no active role in getting us in.

 

[Dan_Blake]

So many words . . . so little understanding. Don’t any of you guys work for a living? I guess I must be getting old. In tears gone by I would have jumped in the middle of this with both feet, but it is all so futile. Anymore, I pretty much hold my peace unless I sense there is someone who really wants to understand.

Ha, ha, ha! I just proof read what I wrote above. I meant to say, “In years gone by.” The laugh is that many tears have also gone by.

 

[TOME]

To take one verse or part of a verse and develop a whle theology of salvation is not the best thing to do, especially if your interpretation is wrong in the beginning.

If you really want to get an understanding of what Paul is say I would advise to first read the whole letter. Also, read and study his letters to the Corinthian, and Galatians and Ephesians.

In these three works, you will find that Paul faced the constant challenge to the Church’s he helped to establish, from those Christians who were originally jews and who not only saw no difference between Judahism and Christianity but insisted all christians follow the Mosaic Law ( not very popular with the gentile christians - especially the circumscision part).

When Paul writes about “Works” (or at least the way he is quoted by many) his “Works” are actually the works done inorder to adhear to the Mosaic Law. It had nothing to do with works of Christian Charity demanded by Jesus and Paul completely concurs and demands that from his people who he had converted.

Briefly, start by reading the whole letter and the other letters mentioned as well.