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Lazerlike42
Guest
Given this total depravity view of humanity, how do atheists bear good fruit? My best friend for years was an atheist and he did more good works than I ever have!
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E.E.N.S
Guest
However humans can and do often vary in their actions, one day they are doing great works of mercy out of love of God and love of neighbor, then the next day they are committing grave sin. This is why Paul tells us to work out our salvation with fear and trembling.
EA_Man, your thought process is close, but backwards…what we do determines who we are. The more virtues we practice, the closer to perfection we will become…kind of like excercizing; you don’t lift more weight because your muscles are bigger (though this is true), but because of your working out, your muscles get bigger and then you can lift more weight.
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EA_Man
Guest
quote=Lazerlike42hy does Paul say that we will be rewarded based on out works, and then go on to say it is a matter of salvation in Romans 2?
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Paul is not admonishing us to start performing all sorts of works. He is saying that we will rewarded according to our works absolutely. But WHY is he telling us that?
If we want to be rewarded according to our works, then we have to include ALL of our works in the equation – not just the ones we are most proud of. We have to consider every thought, every word, every attitude, and every action we do which is less than perfect.
All of these must subtract from our reward if we expect that our good works are going to add to it.
Are works which you know are not good enough to save you, nevertheless good enough to earn you a greater reward? – or any
reward at all for that matter?
Peace
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Paul is not admonishing us to start performing all sorts of works. He is saying that we will rewarded according to our works absolutely. But WHY is he telling us that?
If we want to be rewarded according to our works, then we have to include ALL of our works in the equation – not just the ones we are most proud of. We have to consider every thought, every word, every attitude, and every action we do which is less than perfect.
All of these must subtract from our reward if we expect that our good works are going to add to it.
Are works which you know are not good enough to save you, nevertheless good enough to earn you a greater reward? – or any
reward at all for that matter?
Peace
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Lazerlike42
Guest
So what does Paul mean when he tells us that we will be rewarded with eternal life or damnation based on if our works were good or bad?
Also, where does it say anything like “All of these must subtract from our reward if we expect that our good works are going to add to it” in the Bible?
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E.E.N.S
Guest
“Every tree that does not bring forth good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire…”
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EA_Man
Guest
Man is still a moral creature even in his unregenerate state.
Atheists can be perfectly splendid people. Paul states in Romans that even the unsaved have the law of God engraved on their heart.
“Which of you fathers, if your son asks for a fish, will give him a snake instead? Or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!” Luke 11:11-13
Peace
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EA_Man
Guest
E.E.N.S. said:
The question is WHY?
Jesus says that you know the kind of tree by the fruit it bears.
Those trees thrown into the fire are thrown in because they were BAD trees. Not because they were good trees that didn’t bear fruit. Leave the passage in context, don’t lift it out to suit your purposes.
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Lazerlike42
Guest
But the worst tree of all is that with no faith, like the fig tree that wouldn’t listen to Jesus and bear fruit. Atheists are the worst trees of all, yet they bear good fruit.
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EA_Man
Guest
Are you Sola Scriptura now?
Read all of Romans in context. What is Paul saying? Is he saying that anything you can do adds to or contributes to your salvation?
Peace
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Lazerlike42
Guest
Read in context it says that works of the mosaic law can’t save us, but nothing whatsoever about general works.
Goto the thread “what did paul mean by that we are saved by faith” or something like that and read my posts #52-55.
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E.E.N.S
Guest
I needed you you to read and respond…in context and out of context they mean one in the same thing - you cannot seperate faith and works - faith without works is dead - and we will be judged by our works…the merit come from Christ sacrifice, not our works, however if we want to be with Christ he tells us what we must DO (e.g., pick up your cross and follow after me, etc.)
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EA_Man
Guest
Your soteriology is messed up.
Listen, we don’t go to hell because we reject Jesus Christ. We are already on our way to hell and will end up there unless we come to Jesus Christ.
Peace
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EA_Man
Guest
This is nonsense.
Do you mean to tell me that Paul says that the mosaic law cannot save us but he intentionally left out general works because he held them in a higher regard?
You don’t actually mean that, right?
Peace
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E.E.N.S
Guest
EA_Man, you also forget a very important part of what Christ did. Jesus established a Church (which Scripture calls His “Body” (cf. Eph 1:22-23), His “Bride” (cf. Eph 5:25-32), and the “pillar and foundation of truth” (cf. 1 Tim 3:15). Jesus chose to found the Church so that His followers could be spiritually guided, nourished and reconciled throughout their earthly lives in preparation to spend eternal life with God in heaven.
When there are disputes (such as this one) we should turn to the Church for guidance.
When there are disputes (such as this one) we should turn to the Church for guidance.
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EA_Man
Guest
E.E.N.S.:
Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect. Matthew 5:48
Peace
Please elaborate. Please list ALL of those things that we must DO.
Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect. Matthew 5:48
Peace
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EA_Man
Guest
E.E.N.S.:
Peace
So do you want to call for an Ecumenical Council or should I?
Peace
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E.E.N.S
Guest
Go for it! I will use the resources that Holy Mother Church has already provided for me; one such example being the Catechism.
Let me know when you get that council ready.
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blackfish152
Guest
lets remember the Thief on the cross!
He had faith. he didnt do much work(unless he offered up his suffering-which he prob did,)But he is the prime example of someone saved primarialy on belief, without the obedience.
But one thing is for sure, his faith would have been in vain, if he was taken off the cross, and didnt die, and was freed. to revert back to his earlier life of sin-and neglected to be odedient to the gospel.
So I think one can be saved simply by belief, but only on your death bed. In every other situation works(obedience to the teachings of the Gospel ie the Church is absolutely essential)
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On_my_way
Guest
Sounds to me that alot of posters want the easy way to Heaven. Just believe and you are in. They don’t want the labor that comes with Faith and Grace. Thats just an observation of mine. 
Not just on this issue but on the whole CAforum.
Not just on this issue but on the whole CAforum.
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E.E.N.S
Guest
Ahh yes, the Church is truly the beautiful Bride of Christ (Eph 5:25-32)
From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
**2001 **The preparation of man for the reception of grace is already a work of grace. This latter is needed to arouse and sustain our collaboration in justification through faith, and in sanctification through charity. God brings to completion in us what he has begun, “since he who completes his work by cooperating with our will began by working so that we might will it:”
Indeed we also work, but we are only collaborating with God who works, for his mercy has gone before us. It has gone before us so that we may be healed, and follows us so that once healed, we may be given life; it goes before us so that we may be called, and follows us so that we may be glorified; it goes before us so that we may live devoutly, and follows us so that we may always live with God: for without him we can do nothing.
(Amen!
)- Status