Romans 3:23 vs Immaculate Conception

[Gottle_of_Geer]

I need some help reconciling Romans 3:23 “all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God” and the Immaculate Conception.

Mary was conceived without original sin - how does that jive with “all have sinned”?

This is a standard Fundamentalist Bible verse - I need some help defending the faith.

God Bless you during the Christmas Octave!

You too ​

I don’t think we need to be able to reconcile these things - no one expects physicists to reconcile the particle theory of light with the wave theory of light Both are true - even if it is not clear how they can be. Why should faith in Christ be free of facts which are both true, even though we cannot see how they can be ? The physical theory can even be an encouragement for us to allow for similar difficulties in doctrine: for the God Who created the physical world is the same God as inspired the Bible & assists His Church.

I believe it is a catastrophic error to play down or dilute so much as a word of the Bible - especially of so important a place as Romans 3. It has to be allowed its full force - otherwise, the rest of the Apostle’s argument becomes ridiculous.

Why after all should or must extemely limited, sinful, cloudy-minded, weak & frail beings like us be able to reconcile any doctrines ? If they are indeed from God, it is to be expected that they will far exceed our limited, etc. abilities to understand. On no account should we fall into the trap of treating God’s revelation as though it were something man could easily grasp; none of us would use an altar to eat our breakfasts from. God’s revelation of Himself is not ours - it’s His, and He made it.

 

[Old_Scholar]

You won’t be able to reconcile it. It can’t be done. Scripture tells us “All” have sinned and it doesn’t exclude Mary.

THEN ACCORDING TO THAT RIGID LITERAL DEFINITION, DID JESUS SIN TOO? HE IS AFTER ALL ONE OF THE “ALL” THAT WAS BORN MAN, RIGHT?

Jesus was God and God can’t sin. He was tempted but did not and could not sin.

In addition, Mary called Jesus her “Saviour.”

ACTUALLY, JESUS HADN’T BEEN SACRIFICED YET. HE WASN’T ANYBODY’S SAVIOUR UNTIL THE SACRIFICE (HIS DEATH ON THE CROSS) WAS COMPLETE.

Jesus came to earth to save sinners. That was His purpose. He was the Saviour the minute He was conceived in the womb.

Matt 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son: and thou shalt call his name JESUS. For he shall save his people from their sins.

FOR MARY TO CALL HERSELF “SAVED”, SHE COULD ONLY BE REFERRING TO THE ONLY ONE WHO COULD SAVE ANYBODY AT THAT TIME…GOD.

Are you saying Jesus was not God?

Luke 1:46-47 "Luke 1:46 And Mary said: My soul doth magnify the Lord. 47) And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.

NO WHERE IN SCRIPTURE DOES MARY SAY THAT JESUS SAVED HER…IT SHE SAYS THAT GOD SAVED HER AS GOD WAS THE ONLY ONE AT THE TIME THAT COULD FREE ANYBODY FROM SIN WHEN THAT PARTICULAR STATEMENT WAS MADE. REMEMBER, THE STATEMENT WAS MADE IN A PRESENT TENSE.

You have to go to the writings of the church leaders hundreds of years later to find where the belief that Mary was conceived without sin, in order to believe this.

You certainly won’t find it in Scripture—because it isn’t true!

JUST LIKE YOU’D HAVE TO GO TO THE CHURCH FATHERS FOR THE DOCTRINES OF SALVATION, RAPTURE, THE TRINITY…OTHER THINGS NOT FOUND IN SCRIPTURE, BUT REVEALED BY THE CHURCH.

Not true. The Trinity is taught in Scripture, as is Salvation and the Rapture.

Read a little more Scripture and a little less about the church fathers.

 

[Old_Scholar]

Paul was writing to people who probably did not care much about Mariology. Thus, he didn’t take the time to note the exception.

But of course, that doesn’t prove anything; there’s other ways to prove Mary’s sinlessness. I’m just noting why the confusion exists.

It was not necessary for Paul to make any exceptions. Jesus could not sin as He was God. Scripture tells us children cannot sin until they reach the age of accountability so we don’t need to worry about that. They are NOT born with original sin.

 

[Volodymyr_988]

You still haven’t answered the question about what sins a still born baby could have possibly committed, or a mentally handicapped person.

 

[2ndGen]

Not true. The Trinity is taught in Scripture, as is Salvation and the Rapture.

Read a little more Scripture and a little less about the church fathers.

“Not true. The Trinity is taught in Scripture, as is Salvation and the Rapture.”

A TEACHING IS DIFFERENT THAN A DOCTRINE.

DOCTRINE IS THE COLLECTION OF TEACHINGS, BUT THE TEACHINGS THEMSELVES WITHOUT BEING ORGANIZED INTO ONE GENERAL STATEMENT ARE JUST TEACHINGS.

CAN YOU FIND THE FOLLOWING WORDS FOR ME IN THE BIBLE?

1. TRINITY
2. RAPTURE
3. BIBLE

 

[Old_Scholar]

Another thing, Mary was praised by Gabriel as being found in favor with God…if she had any sin and could not be reconciled to Him without His Son’s sacrifice, how could she have favor with Him?

She couldn’t be “full of grace” and have sin simultaneously. It’s impossible. Two objects and/or definitions cannot occupy the same space.

Sin and God’s grace cannot occupy Mary. She was either a born sinner or she was (as was the Ark of the originial covenant) free of all blemish.

Unless you’re implying that God would allow His Son to pass through a sinful womb.

Besides, Jesus put it best when He said that nothing good can come out of anything that is bad. If He is good, where He came from had to be good as well.

Remember, Jesus told us to judge a tree by it’s fruit, right? A good tree produces a good fruit, a rotten tree produces a rotten fruit and cannot produce a good fruit.

Which is Jesus to you?
A good fruit or a rotten fruit?

Luke 1:42
“…Blessed art thou among women,
and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.”

You are just wishing and hoping. There is nothing to support your views. You need Scriptures to tell you what the truth is, not suppositions.

 

[Old_Scholar]

Scripture proves that NOT every human being has sinned. Luke Chapter One says of Zechariah and Elizabeth (John the Baptist’s parents) “And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord, blamelessly,” Luke 1:6.

Obviously, then, not “all” have sinned in the sense of every individual human being. Romans is stating that all, meaning all people, both Jew and gentile, have sinned. Not each individual person.

There is nothing in the Scriptures that say Zechariah and Eliazabeth did not sin. Being righteous does not imply without sin.

 

[Old_Scholar]

As defined by the Holy Catholic Church, Mary, through a singular privelege, was kept free from the stain of sin. Mary DID need to be saved, as she is only human; however, God, in His infinite mercy, gave her the gift of salvation at the time of her conception. Through perfect and full grace, Mary chose never to sin during her life.

By the way, for those “non-Catholics” who tout how they only follow Sacred Scripture, why aren’t you following LK 1:48, where Mary proclaims through the power of the Holy Spirit, “behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.”? Are you calling Mary blessed?

Where are the Scriptures that say Mary never sinned? Or that say God gave her the gift of salvation at the time of her conception? Speculation and assumption won’t do it.

And by the way, read Luke 1:47 where Mary says she needs a Saviour.

And yes, I do call Mary Blessed. She was certainly special as soon as she was chosen to bear our Lord.

 

[Old_Scholar]

Yes, exactly, Jesus had already saved Mary from the moment of her conception.

Catholics don’t think that Mary “didn’t need a savior.” Just the opposite – we believe Jesus saved Mary in a special way, from the moment of conception. If any has ever had reason to call Jesus “Savior,” it is Mary, precisely BECAUSE Jesus saved her at the moment of her conception.

Speculation won’t do it. you need more than that!

 

[Old_Scholar]

According to rigid literal interpretation of Romans 3:23, it must include Adam and Eve who must have been created with sin. We know this is not true. The senile, the mentally handicapped,must be “all” well. This is absurd.

There are other instances where “all” does not mean “every single one.”

1 Cor. 15:22 - in Adam all (“pantes”) have died, and in Christ all (“pantes”) shall live. This proves that “all” does not mean “every single one.” This is because not all have died (such as Enoch and Elijah who were taken up to heaven), and not all will go to heaven (because Jesus said so).

Rom. 5:12 - Paul says that death spread to all (Greek “pantes”) men. Again, this proves that “all” does not mean “every single one” because death did not spread to all men (as we have seen with Enoch and Elijah).

Rom. 5:19 - here Paul says “many (not all) were made sinners.” Paul uses “polloi,” not “pantes.” Is Paul contradicting what he said in Rom. 3:23? Of course not. Paul means that all are subject to original sin, but not all reject God.

Rom. 3:10-11 - Protestants also use this verse to prove that all human beings are sinful and thus Mary must be sinful. But see Psalm 14 which is the basis of the verse.

Psalm 14 - this psalm does not teach that all humans are sinful. It only teaches that, among the wicked, all are sinful. The righteous continue to seek God.

Psalm 53:1-3 - “there is none that does good” expressly refers to those who have fallen away. Those who remain faithful do good, and Jesus calls such faithful people “good.”

Luke 1:47 - Mary calls God her Savior. Some Protestants use this to denigrate Mary. Why? Of course God is Mary’s Savior! She was freed from original sin in the womb (unlike us who are freed from sin outside of the womb), but needed a Savior as much as the rest of humanity. It’s wrong to place restrictions on God’s ability to apply the grace of the cross backwards in time, and by special intervention made Mary free from original sin from the moment she was conceived. That is why Mary calls God her savior, so it’s not a problem for Catholics, we don’t limit God.

“Mary a sinner” is a new concept, foriegn even to the reformers. It blasphemes the Incarnation because it means that God and sin can co-exist. It leads to Christological heresies and it is a doctrine of demons.

quotes taken from scripturecatholic.com/blessed_virgin_mary.html#the_bvm-IX

I am sure you believe all that but you can’t support it. You are twisting the Scriptures you cited.

 

[Old_Scholar]

Supposedly, God forms us in the womb
(or the act of the quickening when we are born).

Since God formed Mary and Mary was predestined to bear Christ, wouldn’t He have formed her without sin?

Why would He form her “with” sin to then undo the sin?

Mary was formed as a human being. Human beings were created with sin. Where are the Scriptures that say she was formed without sin?

I’d say that He formed her perfect…even more so than Eve who was created from Adam, even more so than Adam. She was God’s most perfect creation…a perfect human being, obedient in every sense…incapable of sinning because she was made as those who are in Heaven are now; in perfect communion with the Creator.

Just my two cents.

That sounds really nice and it would be nice to believe it but it doesn’t work that way. We are told to “search the Scriptures” for the truth. If it ain’t there, it didn’t happen…

Besides, again, if you were going to send your kid to school during an ice storm and had a choice between the safest school bus around and a motocycle, what would you choose?

The school bus of course.

So if would choose the best option to send your kid to school, how perfect would the vessel that God uses be to send His Son to school?

He would pick the absolute best manner of transportation.

On top of allllllll of that, every cell of DNA that Jesus had came from Mary (no man contributed anything to the formation of Jesus).

If her material (skin, flesh, hair, blood, etc…)
was in anyway corrupt,so would Jesus’ body be.

I love asking Sola Scripturist Anti-Marian Purityians this:

Show the scriptures that say that Mary sinned, that she had children, that she wasn’t conceived immaculately.

To turn the tables, since you make the claim, it is incumbent upon you to show the Scriptures that say Mary was conceived immaculately and without sin. She did have an earthly mother and father you know. There is absolutely no reason to believe she was born without sin. Only Christ was!

According to them, if it “aint’” in the Bible, it can’t be believed.
So, since those instances I just mentioned are “not” in scripture, they cannot be espoused as factual.

They are for all intensive purposes, mere theories. Conjecture.

You are correct. All you say about Mary is purely conjecture.

Mary was as pure as the driven snow on a Convent’s roof!

:getholy:

 

[Old_Scholar]

Then you should be able to tell us what sin a stillborn baby has committed.

A stillborn baby has committed no sin. Only Catholics believe that. Scripture tells us otherwise.

 

[Old_Scholar]

By the way, if all have sinned and couldn’t be saved until Jesus death,hence, all that died remained dead, how then could Moses be seen with Jesus alive during the Transfiguration of Christ “beforre” Jesus could make the sacrifice that would raise the Saints in Matthew 27?

Moses is someone who was a sinner, yes, yet he is seen with someone who was known to have been assumpted to heaven…Elijah.

(When they try to say that Moses wasn’t in heaven, but Elijah was, that’s an open door for the whole Purgatory scene! LOL!)

Moses and Elijah are both in the grave. The scene where they appeared was only an apparition. Christ told us as much when he told the apostles to not tell anyone they had seen them. And the saints were not taken to heaven. They arose and were seen and then died. We know they did because John tells us that no one has gone to heaven except the Son of Man who came down from heaven and John wrote this many years after the resurrection. So it depends on whether you want to believe the Bible or what you hope happened or have been told what happened…

 

[Old_Scholar]

“Not true. The Trinity is taught in Scripture, as is Salvation and the Rapture.”

A TEACHING IS DIFFERENT THAN A DOCTRINE.

DOCTRINE IS THE COLLECTION OF TEACHINGS, BUT THE TEACHINGS THEMSELVES WITHOUT BEING ORGANIZED INTO ONE GENERAL STATEMENT ARE JUST TEACHINGS.

CAN YOU FIND THE FOLLOWING WORDS FOR ME IN THE BIBLE?

1. TRINITY
2. RAPTURE
3. BIBLE

No I can’t. Can you find purgatory, infantium Limbo, Immaculate Conception, Pope or many others I could list.

I’ll be glad to show you the Scriptures that explain the trinity, the rapture and Scripture however, since the Bible is just Scripture.

 

[MariaG]

It was not necessary for Paul to make any exceptions. Jesus could not sin as He was God. Scripture tells us children cannot sin until they reach the age of accountability so we don’t need to worry about that. They are NOT born with original sin.

Where in scripture does it tell us about the age of accountability?

Where are the Scriptures that say Mary never sinned? Or that say God gave her the gift of salvation at the time of her conception? Speculation and assumption won’t do it.

And by the way, read Luke 1:47 where Mary says she needs a Saviour.

And yes, I do call Mary Blessed. She was certainly special as soon as she was chosen to bear our Lord.

I am sure you believe all that but you can’t support it. You are twisting the Scriptures you cited.

Ask for the scripture and then dismiss it without actually discussing WHY you feel it is being twisted. Interesting way to witness to people the truth of Christ:shrug:

A stillborn baby has committed no sin. Only Catholics believe that. Scripture tells us otherwise.

Again, where in scripture?

Also, it would be helpful if you do not misstate what Catholic believe and don’t believe. We do not believe stillborn baby has COMMITTED any personal sin at all nor do we deny that Mary needed a savior.

 

[juliamajor]

No I can’t. Can you find purgatory, infantium Limbo, Immaculate Conception, Pope or many others I could list.

I’ll be glad to show you the Scriptures that explain the trinity, the rapture and Scripture however, since the Bible is just Scripture.

please do-since the are implicit and not explicit.JW’s reject trinity for the very reason it ISN’T in scripture.Since we believe in tradition which came before scripture-there really wouldn’t be much to discuss would there?As far as Immaculate Conception-is anything to great for God? or would you limit His actions to what is acceptable to you or your theology?Or is God bigger and greater and beyond what we could ever possibly conceive.his thoughts are not our thoughts and could never be.Book Of jonah is a perfect example of God not operating like his prophet expected Him to.Limits make God Not Almighty , not all knowing-not God.

 

[2ndGen]

Not true. The Trinity is taught in Scripture, as is Salvation and the Rapture.

Read a little more Scripture and a little less about the church fathers.

THEN ACCORDING TO THAT RIGID LITERAL DEFINITION, DID JESUS SIN TOO? HE IS AFTER ALL ONE OF THE “ALL” THAT WAS BORN MAN, RIGHT?

Jesus was God and God can’t sin. He was tempted but did not and could not sin.

THEN YOU AGREE THAT NOT EVERYBODY THAT WAS BORN HAVE SINNED, RIGHT?​

In addition, Mary called Jesus her “Saviour.”

ACTUALLY, JESUS HADN’T BEEN SACRIFICED YET. HE WASN’T ANYBODY’S SAVIOUR UNTIL THE SACRIFICE (HIS DEATH ON THE CROSS) WAS COMPLETE.

Jesus came to earth to save sinners. That was His purpose. He was the Saviour the minute He was conceived in the womb.

BUT NONE WERE SAVED UNTIL THE SACRIFICE WAS COMPLETE. REMEMBER WHEN THE SAINTS WERE RAISED FROM THEIR GRAVES UPON JESUS’ DEATH?

IF THEY WERE SAVED UPON HIS CONCEPTION, WHY DID THEY HAVE TO WAIT UNTIL HIS DEATH TO RISE?

DO YOU HAVE ANY SCRIPTURAL SUPPORT FOR YOUR BELIEF THAT IT’S JESUS’ CONCEPTION THAT SAVED MEN?

AND IF IT WAS HIS CONCEPTION, WHY WAS THERE A NEED FOR HIM TO BE SACRIFICED?

HIS CONCEPTION WOULD’VE BEEN GOOD ENOUGH, THUS, HE COULD’VE BEEN SPARED THE PASSION THAT HE SUFFERED. RIGHT?

Matt 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son: and thou shalt call his name JESUS. For he shall save his people from their sins.

WELL, IF THAT’S YOUR PROOF, SEE THAT HIS SAVING COMES “AFTER” MARY BROUGHT FORTH JESUS, NOT BEFORE. THIS QUOTE IN NO WAY STATES OR SHOWS THAT IT WAS JESUS’ CONCEPTION THAT SAVES.

DO YOU HAVE ANY SCRIPTURAL PROOF THAT MARY MEANT JESUS WHEN SHE SAID THAT THE LORD WAS HER SAVIOUR?

UP UNTIL THE POINT THAT SHE SAID THAT, THEY (MARY AND GABRIEL) HAD ONLY BEEN TALKING ABOUT GOD IN THE PRESENT TENSE AND SHE REFERS TO HER SALVATION IN THE PRESENT TENSE. JESUS WASN’T EVEN CONCEIVED YET, SO THERE’S NOT WAY THAT HIS CONCEPTION COULD’VE SAVED MARY IF THAT WAS TRUE.

JESUS WAS BEING SPOKEN OF IN A FUTURE TENSE.

===============================
FOR MARY TO CALL HERSELF “SAVED”, SHE COULD ONLY BE REFERRING TO THE ONLY ONE WHO COULD SAVE ANYBODY AT THAT TIME…GOD.

Are you saying Jesus was not God?

WE’RE TALKING ABOUT WHO MARY WAS REFERRING TO WHEN SHE CALLED GOD HER SAVIOR.

YOU TRIED TO CLAIM THAT SHE WAS REFERRING TO JESUS THE SON, NOT GOD THE FATHER WHEN SHE SAID THAT GOD/THE LORD SAVED HER.

DO YOU HAVE ANY SCRIPTURES WHERE JESUS IS CALLED “THE LORD” BEFORE THAT POINT?

UP UNTIL THAT POINT, ONLY GOD THE FATHER WAS CALLED “THE LORD” OR “LORD”, BUT NEVER JESUS.

==================================

You have to go to the writings of the church leaders hundreds of years later to find where the belief that Mary was conceived without sin, in order to believe this.

You certainly won’t find it in Scripture—because it isn’t true!

JUST LIKE YOU’D HAVE TO GO TO THE CHURCH FATHERS FOR THE DOCTRINES OF SALVATION, RAPTURE, THE TRINITY…OTHER THINGS NOT FOUND IN SCRIPTURE, BUT REVEALED BY THE CHURCH.

Not true. The Trinity is taught in Scripture, as is Salvation and the Rapture.

THE DOCTRINE OF THE TRINITY, SALVATION OR THE RAPTURE DO NOT EXIST IN SCRIPTURE AS DOCTRINES. ONLY THE VARIOUS TEACHINGS THAT WERE LATER USED TO COMPRISE THE DOCTRINES EXIST (BUT NOT THE DOCTRINES THEMSELVES).

=================================

Read a little more Scripture and a little less about the church fathers.

FUNNY, I’VE QUOTED NOTHING BUT SCRIPTURE THROUGHOUT THIS EXCHANGE AND NEVER QUOTED ONE OF THE CHURCH FATHERS.

I DON’T HAVE TO…I CAN BYPASS THEM AND GO DIRECTLY TO THE HOLY BIBLE (FROM WHERE THE CHURCH FATHER’S GOT THEIR DOCTRINES FROM).

PAX

 

[2ndGen]

You are just wishing and hoping. There is nothing to support your views. You need Scriptures to tell you what the truth is, not suppositions.

IT’S SCRIPTURE ITSELF THAT CALLS JESUS A BLESSED FRUIT AND DIRECTLY COMPARES JESUS TO MARY WHEN IT STATES THAT SHE IS BLESSED AND SO IS HER FRUIT.

WHICH IS JESUS, A ROTTEN FRUIT OR A GOOD FRUIT?

WHEN YOU ANSWER THAT,
YOU WILL HAVE THE ANSWER AS TO WHAT THE TREE THAT BORE THAT FRUIT IS.

 

[boppaid]

THEN ACCORDING TO THAT RIGID LITERAL DEFINITION, DID JESUS SIN TOO? HE IS AFTER ALL ONE OF THE “ALL” THAT WAS BORN MAN, RIGHT?.

Actually, the verse says “All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God”. Since Jesus IS God, obviously there does not need to be an exclusion.

 

[2ndGen]

Old_Scholar:
Why would He form her “with” sin to then undo the sin?

Mary was formed as a human being. Human beings were created with sin. Where are the Scriptures that say she was formed without sin?

YOU DIDN’T ANSWER THE QUESTION.
WHY WOULD GOD FORM HER SINFUL IN HER MOTHER’S WOMB TO THEN REMOVE ORIGINAL SIN FROM HER SO THAT SHE COULD BE CALLED “FULL OF GRACE”?

FOR HER TO BE FOUND IN HIGH FAVOR WITH GOD, SHE COULD’NT HAVE HAD ANY SIN.

GOD DOESN’T FIND SINNERS IN HIGH FAVOR.
AGAIN, THE BIBLE DOESN’T SAY THAT SHE HAD 99% GRACE AND 1% SIN, BUT THAT SHE WAS 100% GRACED BY GOD; “FULL” OF GRACE, NOT PARTLY GRACED.

========================================

I’d say that He formed her perfect…even more so than Eve who was created from Adam, even more so than Adam. She was God’s most perfect creation…a perfect human being, obedient in every sense…incapable of sinning because she was made as those who are in Heaven are now; in perfect communion with the Creator.

Just my two cents.

That sounds really nice and it would be nice to believe it but it doesn’t work that way. We are told to “search the Scriptures” for the truth. If it ain’t there, it didn’t happen…

SO, THE RAPTURE ISN’T GOING TO HAPPEN?
IT’S NOT IN THE BIBLE.

THE TRINITY DOESN’T EXIST?
IT’S NOT IN THE SCRIPTURES.

SOLA SCRIPTURA DOESN’T EXIST?
IT’S NOT IN THE SCRIPTURES.​

I love asking Sola Scripturist Anti-Marian Purityians this:

Show the scriptures that say that Mary sinned, that she had children, that she wasn’t conceived immaculately.

To turn the tables, since you make the claim, it is incumbent upon you to show the Scriptures that say Mary was conceived immaculately and without sin. She did have an earthly mother and father you know. There is absolutely no reason to believe she was born without sin. Only Christ was!

HOW CAN YOU TURN THE TABLES ON ONE WHO’S TURNED THE TABLES FIRST?

THE BURDEN OF PROOF IS NOT ON THE DEFENDANT (WHICH IN THIS CASE IS MARY AS IT IS HER HONOR THAT IS BEING DEFENDED), BUT THE BURDEN OF PROOF IS ON THE ACCUSER.