Romans 3:23 vs Immaculate Conception

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Old_Scholar said:
No I can’t. Can you find purgatory, infantium Limbo, Immaculate Conception, Pope or many others I could list.

I’ll be glad to show you the Scriptures that explain the trinity, the rapture and Scripture however, since the Bible is just Scripture.
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No I can’t.

THEN SINCE THEY EXIST (TRINITY, BIBLE, ETC…) AND WE KNOW THAT THEY DO, THE FACT THAT THEIR NOT IN THE SCRIPTURE LITERALLY ARE NOT AUTOMATIC GROUNDS FOR THEIR BEING DISQUALIFIED.

SO DOES IT GO WITH THE REST OF THE DOCTRINES THAT 80% OF CHRISTIANITY HAS BELIEVED FOR THE PAST 2,000 YEARS.

YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THAT FOR AS MUCH AS IT IS BLASTED THAT THE IMMACULATE CONCEPTION WASN’T REVEALED UNTIL THE 4TH CENTURY OR SO, THE DOCTRINE THAT THE IMMACULATE CONCEPTION ISN’T TRUE WASN’T CREATED UNTIL THE 16TH CENTURY. IF THE FACT THAT 500 YEARS AFTER THE DEATH OF CHRIST IS ENOUGH TO DISCOUNT THE IMMACULATE CONCEPTION, WHAT DOES THAT SAY FOR THE 1,700 YEAR SPAN FROM THE DEATH OF CHRIST?

TIME ALONE DOESN’T DISQUALIFY OR QUALIFY A DOCTRINE. ONLY THE CHURCH THAT CREATED THE DOCTRINE CAN DO THAT.

===========================

Can you find purgatory,

MACCABEES

infantium Limbo,

MATTHEW

Immaculate Conception,

LUKE

Pope or many others I could list.

THE WORD POPE APPEARS HUNDREDS OF TIMES IN THE NEW TESTAMENT. POPE IN GREEK IS “FATHER”. WHENEVER YOU SEE THE WORD FATHER IN THE BIBLE, IF YOU WERE TO READ THAT SCRIPTURE IN GREEK, YOU’D BE READING THE WORD “POPE”.

😃

I’ll be glad to show you the Scriptures that explain the trinity, the rapture and Scripture however, since the Bible is just Scripture.

SEE WHAT YOU WROTE THERE?
“explain”?

WE COULD SHOW YOU THE SCRIPTURES THAT EXPLAIN CHRISTIAN DOCTRINES, BUT BECAUSE YOUR FAITH IS BASED ON “PROTESTING” OUR FAITH (AND “NOT” FOUNDED BY ONE OF THE APOSTLES), YOU WILL NEVER ACCEPT WHAT WE SHOW YOU.

THAT IS THE VERY FOUNDATION OF YOUR FAITH: PROTESTING UNIVERSAL CHRISTIANITY.

I CAN’T TELL YOU WHAT PROTESTANT DOCTRINE IS. JUST LIKE I CAN’T TELL A MUSLIM OR A JEW OR A BUDDHIST WHAT TO BELIEVE. YOUR FAITH IS YOUR INDIVIDUAL FAITH.

CATHOLICS (UNIVERSAL CHRISTIANS) DON’T “PROTEST” ANYBODY. WE DON’T HAVE TO.

WE ARE THE PROTESTEES.

🤷
 
Old_Scholar said:
A stillborn baby has committed no sin. Only Catholics believe that. Scripture tells us otherwise.
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WHAT ABOUT THE ALL HAVE SINNED SCRIPTURE?

DIDN’T YOU SAY THAT MARY WAS CONCEIVED WITH SIN?

WAS IT ONLY MARY THEN WHO WAS CONCEIVED WITH SIN, AND STILL BORN BABIES WEREN’T?

HOW CONVENIENT FOR YOU TO APPLY THAT PARTICULAR BELIEF (THE HANDING OUT OF SIN TITLES) AS YOU SEE FIT OUTSIDE OF SCRIPTURE.
 
Old_Scholar said:
Moses and Elijah are both in the grave. The scene where they or what you hope happened or have been told what happened…
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Moses and Elijah are both in the grave.

WRONG. MOSES’ BODY WAS WRESTLED FROM SATAN AND TAKEN BY THE ARCHANGEL MICHAEL. THIS IS HOW HE WAS SEEN WITH JESUS IN THE TRANSFIGURATION.

Jude 1:9
Yet Michael the archangel,
when contending with the devil
he disputed about the body of Moses,
durst not bring against him a railing accusation,
but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

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The scene where they appeared was only an apparition.

SO, THE APPARITION OF A DEAD AND BURIED MAN WAS SEEN BY THE APOSTLES AND JESUS?

THEN ACCORDING TO YOU, JESUS TALKS TO THE DEAD (YET, DOESN’T SCRIPTURE TELL US THAT GOD IS THE GOD OF MOSES AND IS “NOT” THE GOD OF THE DEAD?)

LUKE 20:
37Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.

38For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.​

And the saints were not taken to heaven.

SO WHAT HAPPENED TO THE SAINTS THAT WERE RAISED FROM THEIR GRAVES IN MATTHEW 27:

52And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

53And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

AND WHO ARE THESE SAINTS IN HEAVEN PRAYING?

REV 5:8/8:3?

8And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

3And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
They arose and were seen and then died.

COULD YOU PLEASE PRODUCE THE SCRIPTURE THAT STATES THAT THEY DIED?
We know they did because John tells us that no one has gone to heaven except the Son of Man who came down from heaven and John wrote this many years after the resurrection.

BUT IN JOHN’S LAST BOOK, HE WROTE THAT THE SAINTS WERE IN HEAVEN PRAYING.

AND JOHN NEVER SAID THAT THE SAINTS NEVER WENT TO HEAVEN, BUT THAT NO ONE HAS GONE TO HEAVEN AND RETURNED BACK TO EARTH BUTJESUS. THAT IS, IF YOU USE THE WHOLE PASSAGE AND NOT JUST THE ONE VERSE YOU CHOSE TO USE:

HE WAS REFERRING TO WHO IT WAS THAT COULD DESCRIBE HEAVENLY THINGS. THE SUBJECT OF THAT STATEMENT WASN’T ON WHO DID OR DIDN’T GO TO HEAVEN, BUT IT WAS ON WHO COULD SPEAK OF WHAT THEY SAW “IN” HEAVEN (ONLY THOSE WHO’VE BEEN THERE).

ANGELS ARE IN HEAVEN AND THEY’VE COME TO EARTH, RIGHT? SO THEY COULD SPEAK ON WHAT’S IN HEAVEN.

SO JOHN WAS REFERRING DIRECTLY TO LIVING HUMAN BEINGS.

12"If I told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?

13"No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man."

SEE THAT? JOHN’S 13TH VERSE WAS ANSWERING HIS OWN RHETORICAL QUESTION IN VERSE 12.
 
boppaid said:
Actually, the verse says “All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God”. Since Jesus IS God, obviously there does not need to be an exclusion.
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GREAT POINT. AND THAT’S A GREAT POINT FROM WHICH TO DEBATE, BUT REMEMBER, JESUS SAID THAT HE WASN’T IN HIS FATHER’S GLORY YET, SO HE TO WAS SHORT OF THE GLORY OF GOD.

RIGHT?

MAT 16:27
For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

IT IS STATED THAT JESUS WILL COME IN HIS FATHER’S GLORY (NOT HIS OWN), SO HIS GLORY IS SEPARATED FROM HIS FATHER’S SO JESUS AS MAN DOESN’T HAVE HIS OWN GLORY. THIS MAKES HIM ONE OF THE “ALL”.

AGAIN, THAT’S “IF” WE’RE GOING TO BE LITERAL ABOUT THAT LINE.

AND THAT LINE (ROMANS 3) TAKEN IN CONTEXT IS REFERRING TO ONE’S JUSTIFICATION, NOT SIN/ORIGINAL SIN.
 
Old_Scholar said:
A stillborn baby has committed no sin. Only Catholics believe that. Scripture tells us otherwise.
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Then “all have sinned” does not mean all have sinned. That was easy.

Oh, BTW, Catholics don’t believe a stillborn baby has sinned. Where did you get that odd notion about our faith?
 
Old_Scholar said:
A stillborn baby has committed no sin. Only Catholics believe that. Scripture tells us otherwise.
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You wrote that “ALL” have sinned, that includes still born babies and those who die right after birth.
 
Old_Scholar said:
Moses and Elijah are both in the grave. The scene where they appeared was only an apparition. Christ told us as much when he told the apostles to not tell anyone they had seen them. And the saints were not taken to heaven. They arose and were seen and then died. We know they did because John tells us that no one has gone to heaven except the Son of Man who came down from heaven and John wrote this many years after the resurrection. So it depends on whether you want to believe the Bible or what you hope happened or have been told what happened…
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If Elijah is in the grave, why was he taken into heaven by the fiery chariot? What about Enoch?
 
Old_Scholar said:
No I can’t. Can you find purgatory, infantium Limbo, Immaculate Conception, Pope or many others I could list.

I’ll be glad to show you the Scriptures that explain the trinity, the rapture and Scripture however, since the Bible is just Scripture.
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Show me what Scriptures tell us which books are supposed to be in the Bible.
 
John tells us that no one has gone to heaven except the Son of Man who came down from heaven and John wrote this many years after the resurrection.
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Wrong! Jesus said that no man has ASCENDED into Heaven. He said nothing about being ASSUMED, like Mary, Elijah and Enoch were.
 
No I can’t. Can you find purgatory, infantium Limbo, Immaculate Conception, Pope or many others I could list.
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Purgatory: 1 Corinthians 3:10-15

Limbo was never an official church teaching, it was a hypothetical doctrine.

Immaculate Conception: Exodus 25:10; Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant, and the word “setim” means “incorruptible”

Pope: Matthew 16:18-19
 
Old_Scholar said:
Moses and Elijah are both in the grave. The scene where they appeared was only an apparition.
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“And as they still went on and talked, behold, a chariot of fire and horses of fire separated the two of them. And Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.” 2 Kings 2:11.

“But when the archangel Michael, contending with the devil, disputed about the body of Moses, he did not presume to pronounce a reviling judgment upon him, but said, ‘The Lord rebuke you,’” Jude 9.
 
Old_Scholar said:
And the saints were not taken to heaven. They arose and were seen and then died. We know they did because John tells us that no one has gone to heaven except the Son of Man who came down from heaven and John wrote this many years after the resurrection. So it depends on whether you want to believe the Bible or what you hope happened or have been told what happened…
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No, John says no such thing. John said nobody “ASCENDED” into heaven. Assumption is not the same phenomenon as Ascension. Ascension is rising under one’s own power. Jesus alone “ascended” into heaven by His own power, “No one has ascended into heaven but he who descended from heaven, the Son of man,” John 3:13. Assumption is the passive event of being taken by God. Scripture shows that Enoch, Elijah, and Moses were “assumed” or taken bodily into heaven, which is what Catholics believe happened also to Mary.
 
Old_Scholar said:
There is nothing in the Scriptures that say Zechariah and Eliazabeth did not sin. Being righteous does not imply without sin.
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Wrong. Zechariah and Elizabeth walked “in ALL the commandments and ordinances of the Lord, BLAMELESSLY,” Luke 1:6.

Anyone who sins is blameworthy. These two were BLAMELESS. Therefore they never sinned.
 
Old_Scholar said:
Where are the Scriptures that say Mary never sinned? Or that say God gave her the gift of salvation at the time of her conception? Speculation and assumption won’t do it.
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Luke 1:28. – Mary is “full of grace” before Jesus is even born.

Gen 3:14-15 – “enmity” between the Savior’s mother and Satan precludes the possibility of Jesus’ mother having any sin.
Old_Scholar said:
And by the way, read Luke 1:47 where Mary says she needs a Saviour.
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No, she doesn’t. She calls God her Savior. “… my spirit rejoices in God my savior,” Luke 1:47. She doesn’t say that she “needs” a savior (present tense), as you claim, but rather, says refers to God as ALREADY BEING her Savior. That’s exactly what Catholics believe.
Old_Scholar said:
And yes, I do call Mary Blessed. She was certainly special as soon as she was chosen to bear our Lord.
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How often do you “call” Mary blessed?
 
Thanks to everyone for your thoughts on the subject - I have a little more ammunition…

I especially want to thank the protestants for joining in.

May God Bless each of you this Blessed Christmas Season!
 
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