Romans 3:23

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Wow! Let me explain, hopefully clear as crystal.
And if you and I are “filled” with The Holy Spirit, we are sinless?
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  1. I never said anybody who is filled with the Spirit is sinless!
    I was trying to prove that if the Spirit can be in a sinner, or sinners, John’s parents, the Son of God can also be in a sinner, Mary.
  2. Jesus is fully God, always was, always will be.
  3. Jesus wasn’t a man, in time, until His body was in the womb and then born. (sorry, not sure of the words to explain the virgin birth) So yes, Jesus is fully God and fully man.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
-Jesus is the Word
  1. Mary is not the mother, with a capital M, of God. He’s always existed. Mary was not sinless, she isn’t to be prayed to, and all the other things that Rome says. She was blessed to have borne the Messiah.
  2. No, Jesus did not have a fallen sin nature because He wasn’t conceived the usual way, was He? How else would you explain the need for a virgin birth? That doesn’t mean Mary had to be perfect.
    So, in Rom 3:23 when it says “all have sinned,” Mary is included.
 
Xenos8 said:
Wow! Let me explain, hopefully clear as crystal.
  1. I never said anybody who is filled with the Spirit is sinless!
    I was trying to prove that if the Spirit can be in a sinner, or sinners, John’s parents, the Son of God can also be in a sinner, Mary.
  2. Jesus is fully God, always was, always will be.
  3. Jesus wasn’t a man, in time, until His body was in the womb and then born. (sorry, not sure of the words to explain the virgin birth) So yes, Jesus is fully God and fully man.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
-Jesus is the Word
  1. Mary is not the mother, with a capital M, of God. He’s always existed. Mary was not sinless, she isn’t to be prayed to, and all the other things that Rome says. She was blessed to have borne the Messiah.
  2. No, Jesus did not have a fallen sin nature because He wasn’t conceived the usual way, was He? How else would you explain the need for a virgin birth? That doesn’t mean Mary had to be perfect.
    So, in Rom 3:23 when it says “all have sinned,” Mary is included.
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Of Course Jesus Is eternal. Being the Second Person of the
Blessed Trinity. He is outside of time.

But the Blessed Trinity Created time so Jesus can become man
to redeemn us.

Jesus will always be true God and True Man. Thus Jesus will
always have the Blessed Virgin Mary as her mother.
Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever.

With regards to Rom 3:23 our catholic faith does not teach
that Jesus has a fallen nature. This is a heresy.

The Virgin birth has nothing to do with Jesus perfection.
but rather He was concieved by the power of the Holy Spirit.

The ultimate reason for the Immaculate Conception is
because God who is Holy and Pure will not allow His
Son to dwell even for a moment to a womb occupied
by sin.

Mary is not in competition with Jesus for our worship.
but rather She leads us to him. Praying to her is simply asking her to pray for us.
We have no problem honoring athletes,heroes, celebrities etc
who cannot help us attain our salvation.

Why should we have an issue to Honor Mother Mary who
constantly love us. and care about us.
 
Xenos8 said:
So, in Rom 3:23 when it says “all have sinned,” Mary is included.
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Please explain how these humans have sinned:
A baby who dies 3 days old?
Down syndrom children who die?
The 45 million aborted babies?

Thanks. God bless.
 
Please explain how these humans have sinned:
A baby who dies 3 days old?
Down syndrom children who die?
The 45 million aborted babies?
Click to expand...
I would say in the first part of Romans, Paul is explaining the human condition and explaining the need for salvation. As you see, it talks about both Jews and Gentiles. I don’t think it would include little babies.
And of course, as I explained above, Mary is included in the sinners. She wasn’t a baby. Obviously, Jesus never sinned.
You shouldn’t pray to Mary. How could she hear you? And if she could, how could she help? Wouldn’t she have to be God to do so?
Consider this: from catholic.org/prayers/prayer.php?p=1131

Ancient Prayer to the Virgin Mary

We turn to you for protection,
holy Mother of God.

Listen to our prayers
and help us in our needs.

Save us from every danger,
glorious and blessed Virgin.

How could she “Save us from every danger,” without being omnipresent, omnipotent, and omniscient?
 
Xenos8 said:
I would say in the first part of Romans, Paul is explaining the human condition and explaining the need for salvation. As you see, it talks about both Jews and Gentiles. I don’t think it would include little babies.
And of course, as I explained above, Mary is included in the sinners. She wasn’t a baby. Obviously, Jesus never sinned.
You shouldn’t pray to Mary. How could she hear you? And if she could, how could she help? Wouldn’t she have to be God to do so?
Consider this: from catholic.org/prayers/prayer.php?p=1131

Ancient Prayer to the Virgin Mary

We turn to you for protection,
holy Mother of God.

Listen to our prayers
and help us in our needs.

Save us from every danger,
glorious and blessed Virgin.

How could she “Save us from every danger,” without being omnipresent, omnipotent, and omniscient?
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Mary can help us through her powerful intercession. The prayer of a righteous person
is very effective (James 5:16) All souls in heaven
are perfect thats why they see God as He is.
Ther are more than righteous.

No, She does not have to be Omnipresent,Omnipotent or Omniscient to hear
us. God is the medium of Communication. It s
through his power that all the Saints can hear us and help us.

Death cannot seperate us From God or one another
Rom 8:35-39 and we are one body in Christ (Cor 12:(12-24) and individually parts of each other Rom:12:5) and finally consider Rev. 5:8 and Rev 8
which clearly states that the Saints can hear us and
intercede for us before the throne of God.
 
How about some comparitive uses of the word “all” and “none,” both out of Romans?
“There is none that does seeks after God” I seek after God, so that menas that in this case “none” is not absolute.

“Death passes to all men for all have sinned” Elijah didn’t die. Neither did Enoch. So not all men have died, also inferring that “all” in this part of Romans is not absolute. It is a generalization, to which there are exceptions. Mary was one such exception.
 
The prayer is addressed directly to Mary. There’s no mention of her intercession.
 
Xenos8 said:
I would say in the first part of Romans, Paul is explaining the human condition and explaining the need for salvation. As you see, it talks about both Jews and Gentiles. I don’t think it would include little babies.
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I agree. If babies have not sinned, this means that “all have sinned” does not mean “all.” Therefore, this verse cannot be used to prove Mary did not sin because “all” does not mean “all” humans.
Xenos8 said:
You shouldn’t pray to Mary. How could she hear you? And if she could, how could she help? Wouldn’t she have to be God to do so?
Click to expand...
The saints can help because they can pray for us and they don’t have to be God to pray for us.
Mary and the saints can pray for us because they are not dead. Proof of this can be seen in the transfiguration. Elijah and Moses are not dead because they are speaking with Jesus.
God bless.
 
Well, this is getting pretty far off topic. Shame on me for adding to it.
No, Jesus did not have a fallen sin nature because He wasn’t conceived the usual way, was He? How else would you explain the need for a virgin birth? That doesn’t mean Mary had to be perfect.
Click to expand...
Xenos, does this mean you believe that original sin is inherited only from the father? That is proved wrong in Gen. 3:16-19.

Do you believe that original sin is inherited from Adam and Eve?

Do you believe that Jesus is fully God and fully Man?

Do you believe that His human body came from being born of Mary?

If your answer to these questions is “yes,” then …

If Jesus was fully man, he would have inherited original sin. We know that is not true. Mary had to have been made pure. God did this at the moment she received her soul. In this way she was “saved;” and the Lord was her Savior.

You can see the contrast between her purity and the rest of mankind in Luke 1. Both she and Zechariah had angels appear to them. Both were troubled by this.

Zechariah reacted with fear. Mary reacted with contemplation.

Both questioned the angel about how such a miracle could happen.

Zechariah reacted to the answer with disbelief, and was punished for it. Mary’s reaction was, “Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord.”

So you can see that we base the Immaculate Conception on more than just Luke 1:28.

None of this means she was equal to Jesus. She was not. We do not pray to her as if she were God. We pray to her as a powerful intercessor. (We do not believe in “soul sleep.”)

If God had not done this, she would have been a “normal” sinner like the rest of us. So would Jesus! The hypostatic union could not have been complete.

God bless you,

Ruthie
 
Back to the OP.

To take “all have sinned and fallen short…” out of the surrounding passage is “proof-texting.” A close reading proves that Paul is talking about the Jews and Gentiles who have become Christians. The sentence this proof-text is taken from is this (emphasis mine): “For there is no distinction; ****since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as an expiation by his blood, to be received by faith.”

Distinction between whom? Between the Jews and the Gentiles. Clearly, “all” applies to these two groups.

Of course, there is also the spiritual meaning, and in that case, it does apply to all of us - but in the sense that we should exclude no one, nor “grade” people according to their background and the number of their sins.

P.S. My proof-text against proof-texting is “There is no God,” which appears 12 times in the KJV OT.

YSIC,

Ruthie
 
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