Romans 3:23

[GaryTaylor]

God the Father, from whom comes every perfect gift and every grace being the Author of Grace, himself gave Mary every grace when he gave her his Son. When the angel Gabrielle first came to her, he said: “Hail full of grace!”. This means that her soul was filled with every grace that it was capable of being filled with at that time. She herself confesses: “My soul magnifies the Lord … the Almighty has done great things for me!” (Luke 1:47-49) St. Bernard says, “the specific will of God for Mary was manifested to her in Jesus himself.”

In the new dispensation of grace to the world through Christ, God also chose Mary to be the treasurer, the administrator and the dispenser of all his graces. The sanctifying grace which brings about our spiritual adoption as children of God, passes to us through her soul as through a crystal clear channel. Thus, everyone who is a member of the mystical Body of Christ is spiritually born both of God and of Mary - just as Jesus was. Through Christ, the salvation and grace of God is available to all men. Man’s personal response of faith establishes his spiritual adoption and life in God. But, the sanctifying of graces of God gained by the sacrifice of Christ, come to us through the spiritual mediation of Mary. This is why the Church calls her the “Mediatrix of Grace.” It all comes to this: we must discover a simple means to consistently obtain the greatest graces from God, which are needed to enable us to become truly holy. You must discover the secret of Mary if you would consistently obtain the greatest graces from God. “St Louis de Montfort”

God chose to come to mankind through the BVM in His Son Jesus Christ. So to then the reverse is true for mankind.

God Bless, Gary

 

[Richard_Kastner]

In the specific wording used (see more here)

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=667791&postcount=10

and the fact that it is an Angelic being addressing Mary this way

ewtn.com/library/mary/sttomhmy.htm

It does convey that she must have remained sinless by the fullness of grace.

The above is just one interpretation of the evidence. I am sure you have your own too. You just need a little imagination and some creativity and one can come up with their own. I’ve in-fact heard some pretty imaginative explanations that have been presented by Protestant Apologist. But the question to ask is which one is correct? YOU or the CHURCH?

For a Christian, the only reasonable way to know God’s truths is to give full assent to the Church. So out of the many interpretations you probably have, we choose the one that the Church tells us as correct. NOT the one that you privately pray about and think is right.

Now since I see that your religious affiliation is mentioned as Protestant, this might not sit well with you. But that is a different issue for another thread.

All that has to be done in this thread is show that there are reasonable grounds to think that Mary remained sinless. Now, it has been shown that there is support for such claim in Tradition and Scripture of St. Luke’s Gospel, hence it is REASONABLE.

God Bless

Could you give a definition of what you think grace is?

God the Father, from whom comes every perfect gift and every grace being the Author of Grace, himself gave Mary every grace when he gave her his Son. When the angel Gabrielle first came to her, he said: “Hail full of grace!”. This means that her soul was filled with every grace that it was capable of being filled with at that time. She herself confesses: “My soul magnifies the Lord … the Almighty has done great things for me!” (Luke 1:47-49) St. Bernard says, “the specific will of God for Mary was manifested to her in Jesus himself.”

In the new dispensation of grace to the world through Christ, God also chose Mary to be the treasurer, the administrator and the dispenser of all his graces. The sanctifying grace which brings about our spiritual adoption as children of God, passes to us through her soul as through a crystal clear channel. Thus, everyone who is a member of the mystical Body of Christ is spiritually born both of God and of Mary - just as Jesus was. Through Christ, the salvation and grace of God is available to all men. Man’s personal response of faith establishes his spiritual adoption and life in God. But, the sanctifying of graces of God gained by the sacrifice of Christ, come to us through the spiritual mediation of Mary. This is why the Church calls her the “Mediatrix of Grace.” It all comes to this: we must discover a simple means to consistently obtain the greatest graces from God, which are needed to enable us to become truly holy. You must discover the secret of Mary if you would consistently obtain the greatest graces from God. “St Louis de Montfort”

God chose to come to mankind through the BVM in His Son Jesus Christ. So to then the reverse is true for mankind.

God Bless, Gary

So you are saying that Mary mediates the grace of God to us, right?

 

[ddarko]

Could you give a definition of what you think grace is?

I don’t know how this is going to help you. This should give you and idea of how I view Grace.

newadvent.org/cathen/06689a.htm

At best, you can tell me now that “aha, that’s not my definition Grace”.

Well sure, but as I said before, I am really not concerned with your private interpretation/formulation of Grace. As far as I am concerned, your whole process lacks any reason to justify belief in any of your conclusions.

Why should I trust your private formulation of what Grace must be and how to interpret something over the Church’s interpretation?

If you can answer me that question convincingly, I would be happy to concede my position.

God Bless

 

[rinnie]

Roman 3:23 “For all have fell short of the Glory of God” NOW, I do believe Mary was Sinless, I know what Luke 1 says so you dont have to give me the whole run around about Luke 1. But, its kind of hard to work around Romans 3:23…cause its like…Contradicting itself o.0 Sort of…can you please help me with this. Protestants believe she was sinful, but Luke 1 says she isn’t, Catholics believe she was sinless, but Roman 3:23 says she isn’t. How would Catholics work around Romans 3:23 to make it coincide with there belief on Mary?

Because thats what happens when you take scripture out of context. Remember if you have scripture contradicting scripture you are taking scripture out of Context.

That is why we do not define scirpture on our own. The bible itself tells you we do not have the mind of Christ so don’t even try to understand what he is saying or teaching on your own.

The Church is the Pilar of all truth,no humans and human interpretations.

 

[GaryTaylor]

So you are saying that Mary mediates the grace of God to us, right?

Sure the Holy Spirit espoused BVM and created His greatest work the Incarnate Word, in Her, by Her and through Her.

The postion of intercession She has been given through God whom the Saints agree upon. Richard were you not Catholic for decades? So you are still Catholic. You are only distracted. Our Lady may well be “your” Saving Grace!

Yes I often revert to St Louis de Montfort since Pope Pius did also with his ex-cathedra dogma and so did Blessed JP-II and St Padre Pio.

What truth did you find elsewhere which wasn’t given to you in the CC?

 

[rinnie]

Are you saying that “full of gace” means that the person spoken of never sinned?

Well Richard you tell me. Scripture says you have found favor with God. That means God saved her from sin.

Now by the Grace given to her by God and her own free will, she used the Grace of God and never sinned. Now what is it about Gods grace that you feel it is lacking that if a person if filled with it, that sin can enter that person then?

 

[rinnie]

Could you give a definition of what you think grace is?

So you are saying that Mary mediates the grace of God to us, right?

Richard no one ever said that. You continue to not only take scripture out of context you do it to us too

There is only ONE mediator between God and Man and that is Jesus Christ. But the Blessed Mother can pray for us and what makes you feel that your prayers can be heard and hers can’t?

 

[Michael19682]

Maybe ‘sinless’ simply means she had no original sin, since she was conceived without sin. Just a guess.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

I don’t know how this is going to help you. This should give you and idea of how I view Grace.

newadvent.org/cathen/06689a.htm

At best, you can tell me now that “aha, that’s not my definition Grace”.

Well sure, but as I said before, I am really not concerned with your private interpretation/formulation of Grace. As far as I am concerned, your whole process lacks any reason to justify belief in any of your conclusions.

Why should I trust your private formulation of what Grace must be and how to interpret something over the Church’s interpretation?

If you can answer me that question convincingly, I would be happy to concede my position.

God Bless

Wow, you sure get a lot out of a simple question. This from the link you provide.

“Grace (gratia, Charis), in general, is a supernatural gift of God to intellectual creatures (men, angels) for their eternal salvation, whether the latter be furthered and attained through salutary acts or a state of holiness.”

Notice this definition says that grace is a SUPERNATURAL GIFT OF GOD and this GIFT is given to men and angels for their eternal salvation Is this saying that Satan and his minions will be saved? Notice further that this GIFT is “furthered and attained” through salutary acts or basically good deeds. In other words grace this GIFT is purchased by our good deeds which makes it not a gift at all but something that is owed to us. Or by “a state of holiness” Isn’t the whole purpose of grace to MAKE US HOLY. How can we be holy before we recieve grace?

Also

“Among the three fundamental ideas — sin, redemption, and grace — grace plays the part of the means, indispensable and Divinely ordained, to effect the redemption from sin through Christ and to lead men to their eternal destiny in heaven.”

Here again grace is given “to effect the redemption from sin through Christ and to lead men to their eternal destiny in heaven.” I couldn’t agree more. However above it includes angels. The angels that have not sinned are obviously not in need of God’s salvation. So again is this saying that it is possible for Satan and his fallen angels to be saved?

 

[GaryTaylor]

Here’s a link for Our Lady Mediatrix which is Dogma of the Church. The Father explains it well. As does St Louis de Montfort which his work could be read on-line. Careful though you may come upon a profound truth.

search.yahoo.com/r/_ylt=A0oG7nICzDJOq3kAEfRXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTE1MTZxZmViBHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDNQRjb2xvA2FjMgR2dGlkA01TWTAwOV8xNjM-/SIG=1220phm9d/EXP=1311973474/**http%3a//www.ewtn.com/faith/teachings/marya4.htm

Just click “here”

St. Bernardine of Siena : “Every grace that is communicated to this world has a threefold course. For by excellent order, it is dispensed from God to Christ, from Christ to the Virgin, from the Virgin to us.”

Peace

 

[GaryTaylor]

In other words grace this GIFT is purchased by our good deeds which makes it not a gift at all but something that is owed to us. Or by “a state of holiness” Isn’t the whole purpose of grace to MAKE US HOLY. How can we be holy before we recieve grace?

“Protestant theology, tends to speak of grace merely as favor, and some say grace is not a thing given. But that would imply Pelagianism, the heresy that says that we can be saved by our own power. For if God merely sits there and smiles at me, and gives me nothing, that would mean that I had to do it by my own power. We do not purchase Grace through our own Good Deeds. Grace is given by the Lord.” Fr William G. Most

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Here’s a link for Our Lady Mediatrix which is Dogma of the Church. The Father explains it well. As does St Louis de Montfort which his work could be read on-line. Careful though you may come upon a profound truth.

search.yahoo.com/r/_ylt=A0oG7nICzDJOq3kAEfRXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTE1MTZxZmViBHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDNQRjb2xvA2FjMgR2dGlkA01TWTAwOV8xNjM-/SIG=1220phm9d/EXP=1311973474/**http%3a//www.ewtn.com/faith/teachings/marya4.htm

Just click “here”

St. Bernardine of Siena : “Every grace that is communicated to this world has a threefold course. For by excellent order, it is dispensed from God to Christ, from Christ to the Virgin, from the Virgin to us.”

Peace

Here’s a quote from your link.

"The Second Vatican Council (Lumen gentium ## 61-62), said:

… in suffering with Him as He died on the cross, she cooperated in the work of the Savior, in an altogether singular way, by obedience, faith, hope, and burning love, to restore supernatural life to souls. As a result she is our Mother in the order of grace.

I don’t see how Mary’s cooperation in the work of the Savior makes Mary our mother in the order of grace. Isn’t cooperating with Jesus in His work of salvation, the way we all obtain grace or the GIFT of Salvation

This motherhood of Mary in the economy of grace lasts without interruption, from the consent which she gave in faith at the annunciation, and which she unhesitatingly bore with under the cross, even to the perpetual consummation of all the elect. For after being assumed into heaven, she has not put aside this saving function, but by her manifold intercession, she continues to win the gifts of eternal salvation for us."

First of all I see no evidence from scripture that Mary was “assumed”. And what is the “saving function” of Mary. Mary does NOT win eternal salvation for us. It is a GIFT of the Father in His Son.

Jn.3
16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

"Protestant theology, tends to speak of grace merely as favor, and some say grace is not a thing given.

I don’t know where you get your information from, but it’s wrong. Grace is the unmerited gift of Salvation in Jesus Christ.

But that would imply Pelagianism, the heresy that says that we can be saved by our own power. For if God merely sits there and smiles at me, and gives me nothing, that would mean that I had to do it by my own power. We do not purchase Grace through our own Good Deeds. Grace is given by the Lord." Fr William G. Most

Gary this quote “Grace (gratia, Charis), in general, is a supernatural gift of God to intellectual creatures (men, angels) for their eternal salvation, whether the latter be furthered and attained through salutary acts or a state of holiness.” is from the link that you provided and clearly says that grace is “furthered and attained through salutary acts or a state of holiness” Salutary acts are good deeds, so YOUR LINK is saying that grace is obtained by works NOT ME.

 

[ddarko]

Wow, you sure get a lot out of a simple question. This from the link you provide.

“Grace (gratia, Charis), in general, is a supernatural gift of God to intellectual creatures (men, angels) for their eternal salvation, whether the latter be furthered and attained through salutary acts or a state of holiness.”

Notice this definition says that grace is a SUPERNATURAL GIFT OF GOD and this GIFT is given to men and angels for their eternal salvation Is this saying that Satan and his minions will be saved? Notice further that this GIFT is “furthered and attained” through salutary acts or basically good deeds. In other words grace this GIFT is purchased by our good deeds which makes it not a gift at all but something that is owed to us. Or by “a state of holiness” Isn’t the whole purpose of grace to MAKE US HOLY. How can we be holy before we recieve grace?

Also

“Among the three fundamental ideas — sin, redemption, and grace — grace plays the part of the means, indispensable and Divinely ordained, to effect the redemption from sin through Christ and to lead men to their eternal destiny in heaven.”

Here again grace is given “to effect the redemption from sin through Christ and to lead men to their eternal destiny in heaven.” I couldn’t agree more. However above it includes angels. The angels that have not sinned are obviously not in need of God’s salvation. So again is this saying that it is possible for Satan and his fallen angels to be saved?

Are you just trolling or something?

What exactly are you trying to say here? That Catholic teaching on Grace is inconsistent?

First, your interpretation is absurd. When it says given to angels, it would mean at the time they made the choice to align with God or against him at the moment of their creation. So why you made the salvation of an angel an ongoing thing is … a … jump in to a false conclusion.

So no, fallen angels cannot be saved and nowhere does it suggest that it must be the case.

Oh about the works, why don’t you humor me. Let us say we do works apart from God’s grace (obviously false in Catholic Theology). What makes you think I am wrong? Is it your private little interpretation of a certain Scripture verse? Or private interpretation of couple of Scripture quotes perhaps? In the end, why should I give assent to your teaching? As far as I am concerned, you are just giving me one “Private interpretation” and the church is giving it’s private interpretation. Why would I accept yours over the Church?

In other words, if apostles appointed by st. Peter and other apostles are teaching me something, why on earth would I believe in what a certain Richard Kastner has to say which contradicts them?

Please, don’t dodge the question. Answer me.

God Bless

 

[rinnie]

Here’s a quote from your link.

First of all I see no evidence from scripture that Mary was “assumed”. And what is the “saving function” of Mary. Mary does NOT win eternal salvation for us. It is a GIFT of the Father in His Son.

Jn.3
16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Its a teaching of the Church. Where does the Church or has the early fathers of the CHurch ever teaching that all scripture is in the bible.

Here we go again Richard read it again Remember all they we have taught you either by word of mouth or written. Remember Richard word of Mouth Sacred Tradiition OF GOD, not Men RIchard before you get the wheels on the bus rolling again. Because I know you can still not separate Tradtion of Man from Traditon of God.

 

[rinnie]

Are you just trolling or something?

What exactly are you trying to say here? That Catholic teaching on Grace is inconsistent?

First, your interpretation is absurd. When it says given to angels, it would mean at the time they made the choice to align with God or against him at the moment of their creation. So why you made the salvation of an angel an ongoing thing is … a … jump in to a false conclusion.

So no, fallen angels cannot be saved and nowhere does it suggest that it must be the case.

Oh about the works, why don’t you humor me. Let us say we do works apart from God’s grace (obviously false in Catholic Theology). What makes you think I am wrong? Is it your private little interpretation of a certain Scripture verse? Or private interpretation of couple of Scripture quotes perhaps? In the end, why should I give assent to your teaching? As far as I am concerned, you are just giving me one “Private interpretation” and the church is giving it’s private interpretation. Why would I accept yours over the Church?

In other words, if apostles appointed by st. Peter and other apostles are teaching me something, why on earth would I believe in what a certain Richard Kastner has to say which contradicts them?

Please, don’t dodge the question. Answer me.

God Bless

You have to forgive Richard he feels that if we use the Grace given to us by God to do good works we are somehow earning our own salvaton and doing it on our own, without the grace of God to do the good works. I know Go Figure.

 

[ddarko]

I don’t know where you get your information from, but it’s wrong. Grace is the unmerited gift of Salvation in Jesus Christ.

Putting aside the truth or falsity of that statement, how do you know?

According to who? Is it according to your little private bible study? Or is it according to someone who agrees with your view in the past?

Gary this quote “Grace (gratia, Charis), in general, is a supernatural gift of God to intellectual creatures (men, angels) for their eternal salvation, whether the latter be furthered and attained through salutary acts or a state of holiness.” is from the link that you provided and clearly says that grace is “furthered and attained through salutary acts or a state of holiness” Salutary acts are good deeds, so YOUR LINK is saying that grace is obtained by works NOT ME.

You really need to learn how to read.

It says the following in the article Actual Grace:-

“Taking into account, then, all the elements so far considered, we may define actual grace as a supernatural help of God for salutary acts granted in consideration of the merits of Christ.”

Then, it also says the following (the one you are having problems reading:-

“Grace (gratia, Charis), in general, is a supernatural gift of God to intellectual creatures (men, angels) for their eternal salvation, whether the latter be furthered and attained through salutary acts or a state of holiness.”

Now I don’t know your English, but the first reference here is Grace and the 2nd reference here is Eternal Salvation in the sentence. When someone says “latter”, they mean the reference closest to the use of the word i.e. Eternal Salvation.

So Grace is a gift by God to achieve eternal salvation through Good WORKS or State of Holiness.

Nothing here says that GRACE is EARNED.

Again, if you are having difficulty with a written article like this, you are going to have tons of trouble when you do your private interpretation of Scripture. Might want to be careful. Just saying.

God Bless

 

[ddarko]

You have to forgive Richard he feels that if we use the Grace given to us by God to do good works we are somehow earning our own salvaton and doing it on our own, without the grace of God to do the good works. I know Go Figure.

I think he misinterpreted what was written here:-

“Grace (gratia, Charis), in general, is a supernatural gift of God to intellectual creatures (men, angels) for their eternal salvation, whether the latter be furthered and attained through salutary acts or a state of holiness.”

to mean that ‘Grace is furthered and attained through salutary acts or state of holiness’.
What the sentence was actually saying was ‘goal for Eternal Salvation is furthered and attained through salutary acts or state of holiness’ that one is able to perform through God’s Grace.
A good indicator of the fallibility of a private interpretations

But yea, I think he just didn’t know how the word “latter” is used in a sentence.

God Bless

 

[rinnie]

ddarko Richard believe that we are saved by the cross once and for all. He has no comcept of Original sin or actual sin. And he does not believe that we are given grace from God do good works or we can refuse that grace and lose that grace and not do good works.

Richard believes that once we are saved thats it we are getting in. I just call it Richardology

 

[rinnie]

I think he misinterpreted what was written here:-

“Grace (gratia, Charis), in general, is a supernatural gift of God to intellectual creatures (men, angels) for their eternal salvation, whether the latter be furthered and attained through salutary acts or a state of holiness.”

to mean that ‘Grace is furthered and attained through salutary acts or state of holiness’.
What the sentence was actually saying was ‘goal for Eternal Salvation is furthered and attained through salutary acts or state of holiness’ that one is able to perform through God’s Grace.
A good indicator of the fallibility of a private interpretations

But yea, I think he just didn’t know how the word “latter” is used in a sentence.

God Bless

No he is the once saved always saved kind of Guy. Richard cannot comprehend that while Jesus did everything possible for us to be saved we have to do our part also.

He thinks if we USE the Grace given to us by God we are doing good works to earn our own salvation. Richard is a good guy, he just does not make any sense.