romans 4:5

[heisenburg]

Help…

THis verse says soemthing to the effect of a man who does not work but beleives is justified…

How do I counter this with respect to Faith Aloners…

Thanks in advance

 

[RobNY]

heisenburg:

Help…

THis verse says soemthing to the effect of a man who does not work but beleives is justified…

How do I counter this with respect to Faith Aloners…

Thanks in advance

1. Contrast it with James’ epistle which claims how Abraham was justified by works. James 2: 14-26
2. Try Romans 2: 5-6

5By your stubbornness and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God, 6 who will repay everyone according to his works: 3

(Which is a reference of Paul to Psalm 62:12 and Proverb 24:12.)

Those are good places to start.

Also note that in specific circumstances where Paul denounces ‘works,’ he is denoucing works of the Law, not works of love. Most specifically, he is denouncing those who would say circumcision was necessary-- circumcision being the defining work of the Law that initiated the Jew.

 

[Steven_Merten]

heisenburg:

Help…

THis verse says soemthing to the effect of a man who does not work but beleives is justified…

How do I counter this with respect to Faith Aloners…

Thanks in advance

Hello heisenburg,

Have them biblically define God’s word “believe”.

Please visit Believe

NAB WIS 12:2

**Therefore you rebuke offenders little by little, warn them, and remind them of the sins they are committing, that they may abandon their wickedness and believe in you, O LORD!**NAB JOH 3:36

Whoever believes in the Son has life eternal. Whoever disobeys the Son will not see life, but must endure the wrath of God.NAB LUK 8:13

13: Those on the rocky ground are the ones who, when they hear the word, receive it with joy. They have no root; **they believe **for a while, but fall away in time of temptation. **(MAT 13:20)**INT PSA 78:32

In spite of all this, they kept on sinning; in spite of his wonders, they did not believe.
NAB JOH 12:44

Jesus proclaimed aloud: “Whoever puts faith in me believes not so much in me as in him who sent me; and whoever looks on me is seeing him who sent me. I have come to the world as its light, to keep anyone who **believes **in me from remaining in the dark. If anyone hears my words and does not keep them, I am not the one to condemn him, for I did not come to condemn the world but to save it. Whoever rejects me and does not accept my words already has his judge, namely, the word I have spoken it is that which will condemn him on the last day. For I have not spoken on my own; no, the Father who sent me has commanded me what to say and how to speak. Since I know that his commandment means eternal life, whatever I say is spoken just as he instructed me.”
NAB JAM 2:14

My brothers, what good is it to profess faith without practicing it? Such faith has no power to save one, has it? If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and no food for the day, and you say to them, “Good-bye and good luck! Keep warm and well fed,” but do not meet their bodily needs, what good is that? so it is with the faith that does nothing in practice. It is thoroughly lifeless.

To such a person one might say, You have faith and I have works is that it? Show me your faith without works, and I will show you the faith that underlies my works! Do you believe that God is one? you are quite right. The demons believe that, and shudder.

NAB LUK 4:33

(Demons believe Jesus is Lord.)

In the synagogue there was a man with an unclean spirit, who shrieked in a loud voice: Leave us alone! What do you want of us, Jesus of Nazareth? Have you come to destroy us? I know who you are: the Holy One of God. (LUK 4:41)​

NAB MAT 7:21

"None of those who cry out, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of God but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.

NAB LUK 6:43

Why do you call me ‘Lord, Lord’ and not put into practice what I teach you?"
NAB MAT 21:28 Parable of the Two Sons.

“What do you think of this case? There was a man who had two sons. He approached the elder and said, ‘Son, go out and work in the vineyard today.’ The son replied, ‘I am on my way, sir’ ; but he never went. Then the man came to his second son and said the same thing. This son said in reply, ‘No, I will not’; but afterward he regretted it and went. Which of the two did what the father wanted?” They said, “The second.” Jesus said to them, “I assure you that tax collectors and prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God before you. **When John came preaching a way of holiness, you put no faith **in him; but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did believe in him. Yet even when you saw that, you did not repent and believe in him.”

 

[heisenburg]

Thank you for your replies…

I ahve tried using these forms of logic thus far, but it hasnt seemed to help in our debate. (mind you it has been a vey peaceful debate)

While I agree wiht what each of you say, what is it that this particular verse is saying. He continues to return to this verse as his backbone.

What is actualy meant then by that verse if it doesnt mean we are not justified by our works… I feel it is out of place with respct to other statemnts in the bible (invalid statement true) and do not know how to counter it…

Thanks guys

 

[mercygate]

Since there are dozens of places where Scripture insists that works are critical to justification and to life in Christ, you have to show how Paul’s statement is only half of the equation and how it fits into the full context of the subject, and how the fullness of faith is love lived out.

True, we cannot be held to more “works” than we are capable of accomplishing, but “hearing” the word of God means obedience. The very word “obedience” means “to hear intensely.” Hearing and doing are one. When dealing with faith misunderstood as mere assent, I connect the dots to James 2:20-22:

Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, and the scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness”; and he was called the friend of God. You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Luke 12:48: Every one to whommuch is given, of him willmuch be required.

Faith is, indeed, very much.

 

[johnshelby]

heisenburg:

Thank you for your replies…

I ahve tried using these forms of logic thus far, but it hasnt seemed to help in our debate. (mind you it has been a vey peaceful debate)

While I agree wiht what each of you say, what is it that this particular verse is saying. He continues to return to this verse as his backbone.

What is actualy meant then by that verse if it doesnt mean we are not justified by our works… I feel it is out of place with respct to other statemnts in the bible (invalid statement true) and do not know how to counter it…

Thanks guys

basically, this seems to me simply to be saying something like,
“works without faith is dead”, much as James said, “faith without
works is dead”…

neither statement negates the other …

 

[rwoehmke]

Faith alone is like the young man who loved his lady from afar, but never did anything to let her know or to show the depth of his love. She will marry another who not only loves her but performs “works” which are the proof of that love. If we have Faith and truly love God then we will do works as he inspires us. Faith without works is an empty sham, all words and no action. On the other hand without Faith works are of little use because we cannot on our own earn our way into heaven which Jesus has won for us. Its like the proverbial horse and a carriage you can’t have one without the other. One verse alone from scripture proves nothing, but only has validity in light of all else God has revealed in scripture. All that being said what you tell these folks will not hit them like a bolt of lightening and change them overnight. Some will eventually get it and others will remain obstinate in their error. Only God can change their hearts in his own time. After all apoligetics is not about winning the arguement, but tilling the soil and planting the seed.

 

[heisenburg]

“After all apoligetics is not about winning the arguement, but tilling the soil and planting the seed.”

Very good point … something I will try and keep in mind

 

[Steven_Merten]

Hello heisenburg,

In the following scriptures, can you see a difference between the law (circumcision and Pharisee created laws) and God’s commandments? The Protestants are missuseing St. Paul’s admonishments toward circumcision and Pharisee created laws, implying he was speaking of God’s commandments. Obviously St. Paul would not directly counter Jesus’ teachings which constantly tell us to obey God if we wish to go to heaven.

NAB ACT 15:1

Some men came down to Antioch from Judea and began to teach the brothers, “Unless you are circumcised according to Mosaic practice, you cannot be saved.” This created dissension and much controversy between them and Paul and Barnabas.NAB ACT 21:20

“You see, brother, how many thousands of Jews have come to believe, all of them staunch defenders of the law. Yet they have been informed that you teach the Jews who live among the Gentiles to abandon Moses, to give up the circumcision of their children, and to renounce their customs.” **NAB PHI 3:5 **(St. Paul is speaking.)

I was circumcised on the eighth day, being of the stock of Israel and the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrew origins; in legal observance I was a Pharisee, and so zealous that I persecuted the church. I was above reproach when it came to justice based on the law. (GAL 6:13)**NAB 1CO 7:19 **(St. Paul is speaking.)

Circumcision counts for nothing, and its lack makes no difference either. **What matters is keeping God’s commandments.****NAB ROM 2:13 **(St. Paul is speaking.)

For it is not those who hear the law who are just in the sight of God; it is those who keep it who will be declared just. When Gentiles who do not have the law keep it as by instinct, these men although without the law serve as a law for themselves. They show that the demands of the law are written in their hearts. Their conscience bears witness together with that law, and their thoughts will accuse or defend them on the day when, in accordance with the gospel I preach, God will pass judgment on the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.**NAB COL 2:20 **(St. Paul is speaking.)

If with Christ you have died to cosmic forces, why should you be bound by rules that say, “Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!” as though you were still living a life bounded by this world? Such prescriptions deal with things that perish in their use. They are based on merely human precepts and doctrines. While these make a certain show of wisdom in their affected piety, humility, and bodily austerity, their chief effect is that they indulge men’s pride.**NAB MAR 7:9 **(Jesus destroys the law to uphold the Law.)

He went on to say: **“You have made a fine art of setting aside God’s commandment in the interests of keeping your traditions! **For example, Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and in another place, ‘Whoever curses father or mother shall be put to death.’ Yet you declare, ‘If a person says to his father or mother, Any support you might have had from me is korban’ (that is, dedicated to God), you allow him to do nothing more for his father or mother. **That is the way you nullify God’s word in favor of the traditions you have handed on.” **(MAT 15:7-20) (MAR 7:18-23)NAB 2PE 3:14 Preparation for the Coming.

So, beloved, while waiting for this, make every effort to be found without stain or defilement, and at peace in his sight. Consider that our Lord’s patience is directed toward salvation. Paul, our beloved brother, wrote you this in the spirit of wisdom that is his, dealing with these matters as he does in all his letters. There are certain passages in them hard to understand. The ignorant and the unstable distort them (just as they do the rest of Scripture) to their own ruin. You are forewarned, beloved brothers. Be on your guard lest you be led astray by the error of the wicked, and forfeit the security you enjoy.

 

[fwon2638]

Dear heisenburg,

The point is Romans 4 is to show that Abraham was justified by his faith and not by the fact that he was circumcised. If you look at Romans 3 (in general), you will see that St. Paul had tried to argue that we (both Jews and Gentile alike), are justified by faith in Christ not by “work of the laws” (referring to Jewish law, in particular- circumcision) cf: Romans 4:9-12.

Speaking of Romans, have you read Chapter 2?

Francis

 

[Sherlock]

heisenburg:

Thank you for your replies…

I ahve tried using these forms of logic thus far, but it hasnt seemed to help in our debate. (mind you it has been a vey peaceful debate)

While I agree wiht what each of you say, what is it that this particular verse is saying. He continues to return to this verse as his backbone.

What is actualy meant then by that verse if it doesnt mean we are not justified by our works… I feel it is out of place with respct to other statemnts in the bible (invalid statement true) and do not know how to counter it…

Thanks guys

You might want to point out that the Bible is to be taken as a WHOLE, not by snippets. Ask him how he accounts for the apparent contradiction in James—if he gives you an interpretation of James that suits his theology, then ask him if it wouldn’t be just as valid for someone to do the same from the “other” side, so to speak: where in the Bible do you find the Bible giving you the “right” interpretation of those those verses? What makes his interpretation valid, and another’s false?

 

[volzcpa]

If you look at the context of the entire letter to the Romans, it can be seen that Paul was writing against the teachings of the Judahizers who taught that to be saved one not only had to believe in Jesus but also must be subject to the old law including circumcision. Paul distinguishes between the old law and the law of Christ in 1Cor 9:20-21. Throughout Romans Paul is condemning the need to do works of the law (meaning the old ceremonial and judicial law, not the 10 commandments, that was replaced by the new covenant – Rom 10:3-4) which the Judahizers were professing. Paul often uses the term “credited” as the accounting term (he was a businessman, a tent maker) and the term is also used in the Old Testament. Therefore, to be credited as righteousness is merely identifying something as going in the plus column versus the minus column. So being “credited” is to the good i.e. moving toward righteousness but not necessarily the completion of righteousness.

Righteousness is an ongoing process – *Rom 5:1-2 “Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have gained access (by faith) to this grace in which we stand, and we boast in hope of the glory of God.” * Notice we are “in hope of the glory of God” which indicates an ongoing process (see also Gal 5:1-5). The process involves faith and works – Rom 2:5-7 *"By your stubbornness and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God, who will repay everyone according to his works: eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works…” * The importance of works is also seen in Rom 2:5-7.

I hope this helps. Good luck.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

heisenburg:

Help…

THis verse says soemthing to the effect of a man who does not work but beleives is justified…

How do I counter this with respect to Faith Aloners…
Thanks in advance

Here is what I use taking that same chapter:3 For what does the scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.” 4 Now to one who works, his wages are not reckoned as a gift but as his due. 5 And to one who does not work but trusts him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness. … 9 Is this blessing pronounced only upon the circumcised, or also upon the uncircumcised? We say that faith was reckoned to Abraham as righteousness. 10 How then was it reckoned to him? Was it before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after, but before he was circumcised. 11 He received circumcision as a sign or seal of the righteousness which he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. The purpose was to make him the father of all who believe without being circumcised and who thus have righteousness reckoned to them 12 and likewise the father of the circumcised who are not merely circumcised but also follow the example of the faith which our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.It is clearly talking about works of the Law, hence terms like “circumcised”, not the good works Christ commanded. If you keep reading it explains more the distinction of why its not works of the Law, but thats not really the issue here. Towards the end of this chapter Paul explains this “faith” a bit more, the most important part:
18 In hope he believed against hope, that he should become the father of many nations; as he had been told, “So shall your descendants be.” 19 He did not weaken in faith when he considered his own body, which was as good as dead because he was about a hundred years old, or when he considered the barrenness of Sarah’s womb. 20 No distrust made him waver concerning the promise of God, but he grew strong in his faith as he gave glory to God, 21 fully convinced that God was able to do what he had promised. 22 That is why his faith was "reckoned to him as righteousness."
We see here that faith can “weaken”, “waver” and “grow”. There was not a sudden and complete justification the way protestants claim. The way faith weakens, wavers, or grows is due to how someone ACTS. The promise made here that Paul is referencing is from Genesis 15, BUT we see the PREVIOUS 3 chapters showing Abraham in FULL compliance with everything God commanded of him. In otherwords Abraham had clearly proven himself over time before “faith was reckoned to him as righteousnes”. Protestants mistakenly think Abraham appeared one day and decided to believe in God and poof he was justified, no! There was a long history of obedience, ie Gen12-14 before this happened, not to mention he had to continue in this obedience the rest of his life. Also see Hebrews Ch11 for more on this.

 

[trustmc]

heisenburg:

While I agree wiht what each of you say, what is it that this particular verse is saying. He continues to return to this verse as his backbone.

What is actualy meant then by that verse if it doesnt mean we are not justified by our works… I feel it is out of place with respct to other statemnts in the bible (invalid statement true) and do not know how to counter it…

You may want to point out that justification and salvation are two different things. You can do this by asking them the following:

“Do you believe that your faith earns your place in heaven?”

They should say “No,” if they believe that nothing can earn a sinner’s place in heaven. Once they’ve conceeded this point, you can then point out to them that their “justification by faith alone” doctrine, then, should be no different than our “justification by faith and works” doctrine in that the elements that justify us could never earn our place in heaven. We are no more saved by faith than we are by faith and works. Eph 2:8-9 clearly states that we are saved by grace, through faith, and not by faith, or works for that matter “lest any man should boast.”

From there, you can launch into how the Church has always and continues to teach that we are saved by grace alone, not faith and works. Faith and works only justify us before God, but are not the grounds for our salvation. Again, only grace can save us.

Once you make this distinction between salvation and justification, they may be more open to the correct reading of James 2:24.

Mike

 

[bene7]

Catholic Dude:

It is clearly talking about works of the Law, hence terms like “circumcised”, not the good works Christ commanded. If you keep reading it explains more the distinction of why its not works of the Law, but thats not really the issue here.

It’s not at all about the “works of the Law.” Abraham was born, and Abraham believed long before the Law came into existence. “Abraham believed God and it was reckoned to him as righteousness” (Rom. 4:4). “…being justified AS A GIFT by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus” (Rom . 3:24).

God freely justifies (forever) all who put their faith in the Person and work of His beloved Son. Paul is VERY clear in chapters three and four of Romans.

God Bless,
Bene

 

[bones_IV]

Romans 4:5 And to onewho does not work but trusts him who justifies the ungodly, his faith reckoned as righteousness.

The Council of Trent says “this act of faith moves the person to recognize and repent of his sins; to put his trust in God’s mercy and to love him above all things; and to desire the sacraments and resolve to live a holy life”, (De iustificatione). “His faith is righteous ness” is another way of saying that justification renders works good and meritorious of eternal life. God reckons faith as righteousness and this is something to be rewarded. For faith is the first step towards obtaining justification (=salvation).

 

[bones_IV]

bene7:

It’s not at all about the “works of the Law.” Abraham was born, and Abraham believed long before the Law came into existence. “Abraham believed God and it was reckoned to him as righteousness” (Rom. 4:4). “…being justified AS A GIFT by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus” (Rom . 3:24).

God freely justifies (forever) all who put their faith in the Person and work of His beloved Son. Paul is VERY clear in chapters three and four of Romans.

God Bless,
Bene

Jesus said that even demons themeselves have faith.

 

[Pax]

Saved by faith alone? Give your friend this verse to think about.

Romans 8:24

“For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?”

 

[Catholic_Dude]

bene7:

It’s not at all about the “works of the Law.” Abraham was born, and Abraham believed long before the Law came into existence. “Abraham believed God and it was reckoned to him as righteousness” (Rom. 4:4). “…being justified AS A GIFT by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus” (Rom. 3:24).

God freely justifies (forever) all who put their faith in the Person and work of His beloved Son. Paul is VERY clear in chapters three and four of Romans.

God Bless,
Bene

You missed what Ch3 was talking about then, its all about jew vs gentile. (also dont forget he wasnt even known as “Abraham” yet when “his faith was reckoned”, his name was still Abram)

Here is how the last part of chapter 3 and 4 connect, (remember that these chapter divisions were not part of the original text):
26 it was to prove at the present time that he himself is righteous and that he justifies him who has faith in Jesus. 27 Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On the principle of works? No, but on the principle of faith.28 For we hold that a man is justified by faith apart from works of law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30 since God is one; and he will justify the circumcised on the ground of their faith and the uncircumcised through their faith. 31 Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law. 1 What then shall we say about Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.” 4 Now to one who works, his wages are not reckoned as a gift but as his due. 5 And to one who does not work but trusts him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness.
This was an issue concerning the Gentiles of whether or not the Jews had some kind of special pass because they were Jews. Paul goes back in time to where this started and showed that Abraham was not circumcised before he had found favor. Dont forget that this “faith” Abraham displayed was not some one time act, he was faithful long before and long after through deed after deed, ieGen12-17.
In Ch15 it says:
1 After these things the word of the LORD came to Abram in a vision, “Fear not, Abram, I am your shield; your reward shall be very great.” 2 But Abram said, “O Lord GOD, what wilt thou give me, for I continue childless, and the heir of my house is Elie’zer of Damascus?” 3 And Abram said, “Behold, thou hast given me no offspring; and a slave born in my house will be my heir.” 4 And behold, the word of the LORD came to him … and said, “Look toward heaven, and number the stars, if you are able to number them.” Then he said to him, “So shall your descendants be.” 6 And he believed the LORD; and he reckoned it to him as righteousness.
“After these things” is talking about Abraham doing** everything** God commanded, including leaving his home and going to a foreign land. God says clearly Abraham “your reward” indicating merits on Abraham’s part.

 

[Elzee]

See if you can get ahold of the book ‘How Can I Get to Heaven’ by Robert Sungenis. It’s an excellent book, laid out well, and easy to read. It goes into this verse in detail and does an excellent job. Unfortunately, it has been a while since I’ve read it and don’t trust myself to summarize it adequately. Many of the posts here touch on what Sungenis says. I loaned the book out, but if I can get it back I’ll re-read the chapter and summarize.