romans 4:5

[bene7]

thistle:

Wrong! Salvation is not assured just because you believe in Christ.
Even Satan believes in God but he is not saved!

There is no redemption program for Satan and his fallen angels. They cannot believe in Christ for salvation - redemption through faith in Him is reserved only for the descendants of Adam.

"…and after he brought them out he said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” And they said, “Believe *in the Lord Jesus Christ * and you shall be saved, you and your household” (Acts 16:30-31).

“You and your household” means if his family members also believe they too will be saved.

Blessing,
Bene

 

[bene7]

volzcpa:

Since this is the word of God, let’s pray to him to tell us what he meant.

Yes, always go to the Word of God unbiasedly and prayerfully.

Blessings,
Bene

 

[dcdurel]

bene7:

But we have been bought with the price of Christ’s shed blood - we belong to Him (1 Cor. 6:20; 7:23; 1Pet. 1:18-21). There are works that God will do through us during our walk by faith, and these “works” will be rewarded accordingly (see 1 Cor. 3:11-15), but our redemption was already PAID FOR IN FULL by Another (Jesus Christ) so that our salvation and our justification are bestowed on us gift-wise - to His glory - “*that no man should boast.” *
Bene

Incorrect.
Jesus redeemed all men. That simply means He died for all men and merited the grace of salvation. But, all men have not received that grace. Even Protestants believe they don’t receive that grace until they believe. From that point they differ. Some believe they receive that grace and are saved the very moment they believe, others when they say the sinners prayer, others when they are baptized, etc.
The Church has handed down the teaching received from the apostles, that adults are saved when they are believe EVERYTHING Jesus has revealed through His Church and are baptized and repent, etc, rejecting sin.
But, that is only the beginning. We also must obey God. Jesus said, “if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments”. St. Paul said the same thing. When we do so, we receive more of that grace of salvation. We receive more of the grace that Jesus merited by His death on the cross. We receive more of the grace that justifies us. That is why James says we are justified by works “obeying the commandments” and not by faith alone.
Thus, we are not working on their own to earn heaven, Jesus already did that, but when we obey God, we receive the grace that He earned on the cross.
The place that mixes up protestants is that they think St. Paul is referring to OBEYING GOD, when he refers to “works”, or “keeping the law”.
He is not. As someone pointed out earlier, the Judiazers said that believing in Jesus and obeying Jesus were not enough. They said Christians also had to keep the law of Moses, especially circumcision and the Jewish feast days.
But, when a Jew becomes a Christian, he is no longer under the law of Moses. He is now ONLY under the law of Christ. He must still keep the commandments, but he is no longer under the Jewish Ceremonial laws. Just as when someone moves from Russia to the US and becomes a citizen, he is no longer under the laws of Russia. The laws of Russia still exist and are not done away with, but now he is no longer bound by them. They have no authority over him. He still cannot murder, steal, etc. for the US also has laws against murder, etc. but other laws changed. He no longer has to pay Russian taxes, for example etc.
Thus Christians are not under the law of Moses. When the Judiazers said the Christians had to follow the law of Moses, to be saved, they knew, and ST. Paul knew and everyone knew that if they did follow these laws they were NOT obeying Jesus. For Jesus had no such requirement. They were doing something in addition to what God required. They were now “earning” their salvation. **In other words, they were doing something on their own, they were not obeying God, they were adding to what God required. **
Now keeping the law of Moses, out of faith, was necessary for Jews to stay out of hell. But, of course, it could not give them the right to heaven, (save them) because Jesus had not died and merited the grace of salvation.
ST. Paul pointed out that if following the law of Moses could not save anyone, (make them a child of God and give them the right to heaven), since if it could then Jesus died for nothing, then following the law of Moses could not save them after Jesus died and merited the grace of salvation. And since circumcision made one a Jew and bound by the whole law of Moses, then St. Paul said they would have to follow the whole law of Moses.
Thus, in deciding they had to follow the law of Moses, they were putting their faith in men, in man’s opinion, not in Jesus and His teachings. They were not doing so out of faith in Jesus, for Jesus had no such requirement.
Thus, “works of the law” referred to following the ceremonial requirements of the law of Moses. It dos NOT refer to obeying God as Protestants think, because God never required Christians to follow the law of Moses. This is why there are apparent contradictions. Some places St. Paul says we must obey God to enter heaven, (keep the commandments) and other places he says we don’t have to follow “the law” (because that is NOT obeying God). If we keep in mind that “the law” referred to the law of Moses, (which Christians don’t have to obey) and not the law of Christ (law of the Gospel, moral law taught by the Church) then all his writings make sense. If we don’t know that St. Paul is referring ONLY to the law of Moses when referring to “works” and if we don’t know that he is NOT referring obeying God, then all this brings confusion.

 

[bene7]

cddurel:

Originally Posted by bene7
But we have been bought with the price of Christ’s shed blood - we belong to Him (1 Cor. 6:20; 7:23; 1Pet. 1:18-21). There are works that God will do through us during our walk by faith, and these “works” will be rewarded accordingly (see 1 Cor. 3:11-15), but our redemption was already PAID FOR IN FULL by Another (Jesus Christ) so that our salvation and our justification are bestowed on us gift-wise - to His glory - “that no man should boast.”
Bene

Incorrect.
Jesus redeemed all men. That simply means He died for all men and merited the grace of salvation. But, all men have not received that grace. Even Protestants believe they don’t receive that grace until they believe.

Everything I stated above was in context of those who HAVE believed in Christ. ALL who personally believe in Christ are numbered with the redeemed, those who belong to Christ, bought (purchased) with the blood He shed on the cross. You might want to re-read the verses I supplied to back up my statements.

Some believe they receive that grace and are saved the very moment they believe, others when they say the sinners prayer, others when they are baptized, etc.

Well, Evangelicals believe, based on Biblical revelation, that they are redeemed, in full, the moment of belief in Christ. I don’t know of any Protestants who teach people can be saved only if they pray “the sinner’s prayer.” That’s a Campus Crusade evangelistic tool, not a requirement for salvation.

The Church has handed down the teaching received from the apostles, that adults are saved when they are believe EVERYTHING Jesus has revealed through His Church and are baptized and repent, etc, rejecting sin.

Well, what you’re actually saying here is that men are saved/justified by avoiding sin. So the message of the Gospel should read, “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever gets baptized, acts out penance and keeps from sinning, should not perish, but have eternal life.” Now the true Apostolic teaching on salvation is vastly different than what you say your church has handed down to you:

“For by GRACE your have been saved THROUGH FAITH; and that NOT of yourselves (i.e., self-effort, self-works), it is a GIFT of God; NOT as a result of works, that no one should boast” (Eph. 2:8-9).

Paul’s Apostolic teaching is consistent throughout his Epistles.

“For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified AS A GIFT by His grace THROUGH the redemption which is in Christ Jesus” (Rom. 3:23-24).

“Now to the one who works, his wage is not reckoned as a favor, but as what is due:”

Now if my justification is based on me being baptized, penance, and my effort to successfully avoid sins throughout my life (especially so-called “mortal”), then it (salvation/justification) must be awarded to me as a WAGE due tome: I earned it. But that’s not the Apostolic message preserved for all generations in Holy Spirit inspired writings. Divine writings by which the teachings of all men, no matter how high their religious position or authority, must be tested. The Apostle concludes with:

“But to the one who does not work, but BELIEVES IN HIM who justifies the UNGODLY (not the so-called “godly”), his FAITH (not baptism, repentance or efforts to avoid sins) is reckoned (by God) as righteousness” (Rom. 4:5).

Paul points out that Abraham was reckoned righteous (justified) by God through faith before the Law was given to the Jews, and David, a Jew born under the Law, was justified by God through faith while under the Law, even having personally violated that Law he was under.

The Apostolic teaching on salvation and justification is made very clear in Scripture: Gifts of grace through faith alone. Especially in the Apostle Paul’s letter to the Romans. The church at Rome (its hierarchy, its Magesterium) actually needs to adjust its teachings to reflect that which the Holy Spirit *preserved in writing/] (for all generations) to that church through the Apostle. Don’t you think?

Blessing,
Bene*

 

[Pax]

Bene,

I have waited patiently and have checked this thread everyday to see if you would give an adequate response to my posts #96 and 97. So far nothing has been forthcoming.

In post # 96, I gave you many quotes from Paul showing the “provisional” nature of our salvation. You responded to only one quotation and that was Romans 11:20-22 which reads as follows:
“For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off.”

You then responded with "This is NOT addressed to individual believers during this Church age. It’s a warning to “Gentiledom” in general:…" My response was that your take on this was nonsense and that I wouldn’t go any further until you rendered something that had merit. It appears obvious that my waiting was a waste of time, and I will therefore comment on what you did say, and I again challenge you to produce something to refute the obviously conditional phrases used by Paul.

I said that your response was “utter nonsense” because it is not a proper biblical view and because your argument is pure sophistry. Please note that the context of Romans does not allow for you position. Everything in the letter has application to individuals. Looking at this, initially, from your own faith alone position, it becomes clear that any individual Jew that is a believer is “saved,” and that any individual Jew that is not a believer is a branch that is broken off and is not saved. So also with any individual gentile. The gentile is grafted in if a believer, but those individual gentiles that do not believe will not be grafted in. Moreover, those individual gentiles that are grafted in will remain so provided they continue in his[God’s] kindness. All of this business about groups and nations is a dodge.

When Paul writes a letter to a local church he doesn’t send a personalized custom copy to each member. Instead, he writes a general letter that would be similar to a sermon should he be preaching. The message is not just to a group as if a group had no members. The message is to individuals within the group or it has no meaning.

When Paul condemns fornication, idolatry, murder, etc and warns the believers that those that do these things will not enter heaven he is addressing a group of individuals. Individuals can go to hell. They can do so one at a time, or they can do it in a group setting should they all die at once. Why warn a group if it meant nothing to the individuals?

You cannot explain away these kinds of verses in the NT. “Once saved always saved” is a dangerous non-biblical doctrine. This teaching is in no way explicitly stated in scripture. Because of the nature and significance of this teaching, if it were true, it would be explicitly stated in scripture. From our perspective it isn’t even implicitly stated. It appears to us that efforts to scripturally support the teaching are such an extreme stretch that large portions of scripture have to be completely ignored to allow the few that remain to be twisted around to support it.

Another thing that you might keep in mind is that only a relatively small minority of Christians worldwide accept this doctrine which was never even heard of until the Reformation. It’s simply an error and a very serious one at that.

 

[Pax]

Bene,

Let’s take another look at your “once saved always saved” doctrine from some other parts of scripture.

Please note that scripture talks about the names of the saved being written in “The Book of Life.” In Revelation 13:8 we read, “and all who dwell on earth will worship it, every one whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that was slain.”

Now, take note that the names written in the book of life of the Lamb that was slain are are the names of the saved and have been written in the book since before the foundation of the world. Not everybody’s name is written in the book of life. Moreover, it’s pretty clear from scripture that some people’s names couldn’t be written in the book of life because they never believed in Jesus as their Savior. All of this should be consistent with your teaching unless you are prepared to take another twist and turn to escape what comes next.

According to scripture a person’s name can be in the book of life, but once there it can also be blotted out. This is evidenced by Revelation 3:4-5 where it says, “Yet you have still a few persons in Sardis who have not soiled their clothes; they will walk with me, dressed in white, for they are worthy. If you conquer, you will be clothed like them in white robes, and I will not blot your name out of the book of life; I will confess your name before my Father and before his angels.” This is also evidenced in Psalm 69:28 where it says, "Let them be blotted out of the book of the living; let them not be enrolled among the righteous."

Now, if a person’s name is in the book of life they are saved. If their name is blotted out they have lost their salvation. Note, they are saved and then they are no longer saved. Once again, “once saved always saved” doesn’t meet the scriptural test.

Now let’s take another look at Revelation 3:4-5. It says, “Yet you have still a few persons in Sardis who have not soiled their clothes; they will walk with me, dressed in white, for they are worthy. If you conquer, you will be clothed like them in white robes, and I will not blot your name out of the book of life; I will confess your name before my Father and before his angels.”

Take note that these people are worthy for they have not soiled their clothes[they are not sinners]. And also note that it says “If you conquer” I will not blot your name out of the book of life. These poeple obviously have something that “they must do”. They must not sin and they must conquer.

Jesus also talks about the person who conquers in Rev 2:7 where he says, “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who conquers I will grant to eat of the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.”

Then again in Rev. 2:11 Jesus says, “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who conquers shall not be hurt by the second death.”

Then again in Rev. 2:17 Jesus says, “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who conquers I will give some of the hidden manna, and I will give him a white stone, with a new name written on the stone which no one knows except him who receives it.”

Then again in Rev 2:26-28 “He who conquers and who keeps my works until the end, I will give him power over the nations, and he shall rule them with a rod of iron, as when earthen pots are broken in pieces, even as I myself have received power from my Father; and I will give him the morning star.”

And finally Jesus says it again in Rev 3:12, “He who conquers, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God; never shall he go out of it, and I will write on him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem which comes down from my God out of heaven, and my own new name.”

But wait, Jesus says it again in Rev 3:21-22 “He who conquers, I will grant him to sit with me on my throne, as I myself conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’”

And just when we thought it wouldn’t be said again, we find in Rev 21:7-8 another interesting statement that says, " He who conquers shall have this heritage, and I will be his God and he shall be my son. But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the polluted, as for murderers, fornicators, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their lot shall be in the lake that burns with fire and sulphur, which is the second death."

And look what happens to the cowardly, the faithless, the polluted, the murderers, fornicators, sorcerers, idolater, and all the liars.

The truth is staring you in the face from another part of scripture. Just accept the truth. It is Jesus, Himself, that has said these things. It could not be more clear.

 

[Pax]

bene7:

Everything I stated above was in context of those who HAVE believed in Christ. ALL who personally believe in Christ are numbered with the redeemed, those who belong to Christ, bought (purchased) with the blood He shed on the cross. You might want to re-read the verses I supplied to back up my statements.Well, Evangelicals believe, based on Biblical revelation, that they are redeemed, in full, the moment of belief in Christ. …
…
…
The Apostolic teaching on salvation and justification is made very clear in Scripture: Gifts of grace through faith alone. Especially in the Apostle Paul’s letter to the Romans. The church at Rome (its hierarchy, its Magesterium) actually needs to adjust its teachings to reflect that which the Holy Spirit *preserved in writing/] (for all generations) to that church through the Apostle. Don’t you think?

Blessing,
Bene*

Bene,

Has it occurred to you that we have been quoting extensively from scripture and not from the Catechism of the Catholic Church or from Magesterial documents. You keep relying solely on a few “hand picked” and “out of context” passages written by Paul and ignore everything else.

If baptism is so meaningless for salvation please refute the following passages concerning baptism:

ACTS 2:38
And Peter said to them, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

ACTS 10:48
And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to remain for some days.

ACTS 19:1-7
While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul passed through the upper country and came to Ephesus. There he found some disciples. And he said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” And they said, “No, we have never even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.” And he said, “Into what then were you baptized?” They said, “Into John’s baptism.” And Paul said, “John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in the one who was to come after him, that is, Jesus.” On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them; and they spoke with tongues and prophesied. There were about twelve of them in all.

ACTS 22:16
And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name.’

MATTHEW 28:19
Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

JOHN 3:5
Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

MARK 16:16
He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

ROMANS 6: 3-4
Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.

GALATIANS 3:27
For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

COLOSSIANS 2:11-12
In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of flesh in the circumcision of Christ; and you were buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead

EPHESIANS 4:5
one Lord, one faith, one baptism,

TITUS 3:4-8
but when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit,

1 PETER 3:21
Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

What you need to do

 

[gusano]

heisenburg:

Help…

THis verse says soemthing to the effect of a man who does not work but** beleives is justified… **

How do I counter this with respect to Faith Aloners…

Thanks in advance

hi heisenburg,
Romans does not actually; **"…believes is justified".

“But when a man does nothing, yet BELIEVES in him who justifies the sinful, his faith is CREDITED to him as justice.”**

**'BELIEVE" God ** = Thoroughly Love God.
that is with our
Whole heart,
Whole Soul,
Whole mind,
Whole strength.
…different than mentally perceiving something.

**“CREDITED” to him as an act of justice. **(Gen. 15: 6)
“Credited” here is the same as when you buy a new car with nothing down and no payments until Jan / '07.
You are not the owner (yet) but if your Faith is good,
eventually you will be.

God did not
"DECLARE WITH AN OATH to Abraham His Promise of future Inheritance and confirm his “act of righteousness” until AFTER Abraham had PROVED his loyalty and Obedience in Gen. 22: 15- 18.

Where reformers fall short is by not including Romans 4: 21…
"…fully persuaded that God could do what he had promised.
Thus his faith was credited to him as justice."

Which is equivalent to;
Jesus can produce His flesh and blood for us to eat and drink …as he promised for the forgiveness of our sins.

If one has this kind of Faith,
This Faith is credited to one as justice.
Better yet, if one Eats and drinks that bread and wine … BELIEVING IT IS, WHAT JESUS SAYS IT IS…
That is not only justice, but ETERNAL LIFE.

god bless,

gusano

 

[gusano]

bene7:

No, not at all. My emphasis was on the point that the words were to be concealed and sealed up until the last days when the prophetic events revealed in the Book of Daniel were about to accur. This against your point that my eschatological position is a “recent one” and was not held historically by the Church. But you need to understand that, contrary to Biblical revelation, the Church eventually adopted Replacement Theology (the idea that the Church replaced national Israel - it bacame the “new Israel”), and that erroneous act in itself prevented (blinded) men from understanding Biblical prophecy. And today it’s not that you can’t understand these things, but that you simply refuse to accept them because your Church has provided you with its own, official position, and you have been taught that the “Magesterium” is infallible in those areas.
** Also, Protestantism came out of Catholicism, bringing Catholic eschatology with it.**
But once the issue of justification by faith alone was finally settled, men again began to explore the Scriptures for all that they had to reveal, and Premillennialism was re-discovered. Understanding that the Church is not the Kingdom, and the Kingdom is not the Church.

That “understanding”… is not from God.

The Pre-trib. view was born out of Premillennialism, by consistently taking the prophetic Scripturs literally.
My eschatology is “recent” only in that men have only recently gone back to the Scriptues and studied them, literally, for their prophetic content.

God Bless,
Bene

P.S. Believers are never called "the wicked" in Scripture. That designation is reserved only for unbelievers. And if unbelievers don’t accept soteriololgical truths concerning Christ and the cross, how could they possibly understand eschatological truths?

How can you trust the Scriptures, since they come to us from The Carholic Church ?

do you believe you are JUSTIFIED by studying the scriptures ?

gusano