C
Catholic_Dude
Guest
Good question.Where’s Pax and Sycarl?
God Bless,
Michael
- Status
P
Pax
Guest
I was keeping close tabs on this thread until a few days ago. Upon my return I discovered some extraordinary and lengthy discussion that took me quite a long time to wade through. That includes the excellent article linked by CD that was written by the convert from Calvinism.
I must say, that you guys don’t need my help. I have been blown away by the thorough and detailed attention given to Romans 9, and I have learned a great deal.
Thanks and keep up the good work.
I must say, that you guys don’t need my help. I have been blown away by the thorough and detailed attention given to Romans 9, and I have learned a great deal.
Thanks and keep up the good work.
O
Odell
Guest
waiting on Sycarl I recon it want hurt to wait one more day
O
Odell
Guest
**Chapter 10
1
Brothers, my heart’s desire and prayer to God on their behalf is for salvation.
2
I testify with regard to them that they have zeal for God, but it is not discerning.
3
For, in their unawareness of the righteousness that comes from God and their attempt to establish their own (righteousness), they did not submit to the righteousness of God.
4
For Christ is the end of the law for the justification of everyone who has faith.
5
Moses writes about the righteousness that comes from (the) law, “The one who does these things will live by them.”
6
But the righteousness that comes from faith says, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will go up into heaven?’ (that is, to bring Christ down)
7
or ‘Who will go down into the abyss?’ (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).”
8
But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we preach),
9
for, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
10
For one believes with the heart and so is justified, and one confesses with the mouth and so is saved.
11
For the scripture says, “No one who believes in him will be put to shame.”
12
For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; the same Lord is Lord of all, enriching all who call upon him.
13
For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
14
But how can they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how can they believe in him of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone to preach?
15
And how can people preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring (the) good news!”
16
But not everyone has heeded the good news; for Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what was heard from us?”
17
Thus faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes through the word of Christ.
18
But I ask, did they not hear? Certainly they did; for “Their voice has gone forth to all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world.”
19
But I ask, did not Israel understand? First Moses says: “I will make you jealous of those who are not a nation; with a senseless nation I will make you angry.”
20
Then Isaiah speaks boldly and says: “I was found (by) those who were not seeking me; I revealed myself to those who were not asking for me.”
21
But regarding Israel he says, “All day long I stretched out my hands to a disobedient and contentious people.” **
1
Brothers, my heart’s desire and prayer to God on their behalf is for salvation.
2
I testify with regard to them that they have zeal for God, but it is not discerning.
3
For, in their unawareness of the righteousness that comes from God and their attempt to establish their own (righteousness), they did not submit to the righteousness of God.
4
For Christ is the end of the law for the justification of everyone who has faith.
5
Moses writes about the righteousness that comes from (the) law, “The one who does these things will live by them.”
6
But the righteousness that comes from faith says, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will go up into heaven?’ (that is, to bring Christ down)
7
or ‘Who will go down into the abyss?’ (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).”
8
But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we preach),
9
for, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
10
For one believes with the heart and so is justified, and one confesses with the mouth and so is saved.
11
For the scripture says, “No one who believes in him will be put to shame.”
12
For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; the same Lord is Lord of all, enriching all who call upon him.
13
For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
14
But how can they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how can they believe in him of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone to preach?
15
And how can people preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring (the) good news!”
16
But not everyone has heeded the good news; for Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what was heard from us?”
17
Thus faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes through the word of Christ.
18
But I ask, did they not hear? Certainly they did; for “Their voice has gone forth to all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world.”
19
But I ask, did not Israel understand? First Moses says: “I will make you jealous of those who are not a nation; with a senseless nation I will make you angry.”
20
Then Isaiah speaks boldly and says: “I was found (by) those who were not seeking me; I revealed myself to those who were not asking for me.”
21
But regarding Israel he says, “All day long I stretched out my hands to a disobedient and contentious people.” **
C
Catholic_Dude
Guest
As I said earlier, I believe Rom 9-11 must be taken as a whole and I made some comments already about Rom 10, but I think I should make a few more when I get the chance.
Specifically 10:1-4 (“righteousness of God”) and v21.
Specifically 10:1-4 (“righteousness of God”) and v21.
P
Pax
Guest
CD,
I agree with you. The righteousness of God is a biggie in this chapter. The OT Law had over 600 regulations. The Jews desired the Law and God gave them more and more of it. The Law has no power and God showed the Jews by giving them more of what they wanted even to the point of making it overwhelmingly defeating.
The righteousness of God does not come through the OT Law. Jesus is the end and fulfillment of the OT Law and it is through Him that we will be justified. God will justify us and we will be righteous.
I agree with you. The righteousness of God is a biggie in this chapter. The OT Law had over 600 regulations. The Jews desired the Law and God gave them more and more of it. The Law has no power and God showed the Jews by giving them more of what they wanted even to the point of making it overwhelmingly defeating.
The righteousness of God does not come through the OT Law. Jesus is the end and fulfillment of the OT Law and it is through Him that we will be justified. God will justify us and we will be righteous.
C
christmary4ever
Guest
Thank You.
My baptist friend state that Faith alone is
necessary for salvation. He backed this up by
mentioning that the criminal on the cross was not
even baptized.
Code:
He further claim that the good work that the criminal have done by rebuking the other thiefof faith. that faith always brings about good works
and hence w/o faith good works is impossible and
therefore Faith is the one that saves.
How are we to explain the fallacy of this doctrine.?
P
Pax
Guest
christmary4ever,
Send me a pm and an email address and I’ll send you some helpful material. Also follow this thread carefully and you will have plenty of ammunition.
D
D_M
Guest
Hi,
Paul doesn’t want the jews to go to hell or find eternal damnation. He loves his kinsmen and holds out hope and prays that they may yet find salvation.
This is an excellent example for us. We also need to love our enemies, and should pray and hold out hope for their salvation, no matter who they are or how much they may hate us.
He says kind words about them ‘as they have a zeal for God’, but notes that it is not enlightened. Grace comes from God alone, and it is only through faith in Him that a person can be righteous. The jews were ignorant of this righteousness, and faithlessly did not submit to God in true faith, but instead established their own righteousness (which is impossible, since a person without faith cannot be righteous as grace comes from God alone), and so we remember Jesus in the gospels criticizing these jews who had disregarded true obedience to God and were zealous for a corrupted teaching.
They just didn’t get it:
Matthew 9:13 Go and learn what this means, ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.’ For I came not call the righetous, but sinners."
Paul writes that Christ is the ‘end of the law’… that is a very important statement, as we understand that Christ is the summation or the fulfillment of all the law and the prophets. It also follows, that a person who rejects Christ has also ultimately rejected the law, the prophets, the promises to Abraham and God Himself.
But if we have righteous faith in Christ, who is the end of the law, we shall be justified. If we have such faith, and accept Christ, we have also accepted the One who sent Him as well.
Moses wrote that if you obey God, then you will prosper, but if you disobey God, then you will suffer.
How do you obey God though? Do you need to go up to heaven to find out what He wants or to go to hell to find out what He wants? Are God’s commandments in some distant place that we need to figure out what they are before we can do them?
(Interestingly enough, when Paul quotes this section, his quotation isn’t exactly the same as the passage from Deuteronomy that we have… I wonder if that means anything… was the text that he knew different from ours, or was he making a change to what was written under the Spirit’s guidance for this purpose?)
The law is not in some distant place, but is near us christians and we know it, and we are supposed to come to know Him who is the ‘end of the law’. And again he goes back to this justification by faith, although in different words, as he says that if we believe in Jesus in our heart, and be His witnesses in this world then we shall find salvation.
(It never ceases to impress me just how many times within such a short space that Paul is able to recite and reference quotations from scripture.)
If we sincerely seek the God who sent His Son to die for us, with the righteous faith through that Son, then we shall not be put to shame, but we are given certain promise of our salvation (but only insofar as we continue to follow this path and not go astray from it… since no one can know with certainty what they shall do in the future and whether ultimately we will necessarily be saved). This promise and offer is universal to all people.
He quotes the prophet Joel, ‘all who call on the name of the Lord shall be saved’.
Then he writes, how can they call on this name if they’ve never heard it or it have never heard a blessed preacher sent to them to preach the good news?
This makes me think of the number of people in the world who are ignorant of the gospel. It also reminds me of my own experience, when, once-upon-a-time, I was an agnostic before I converted to catholicism… relatively ignorant of Jesus and what this christian religion was all about… (technically I was raised as a protestant, but I stopped going to church when I turned 14).
But the thing is though, that ignorance is not itself an excuse, because we haven’t all heeded or listened to that which has been told us. He says that ‘faith comes from what is heard’, and he means what we hear which Christ is telling us, and in truth God is calling all of us, every last person in existence whether they know it or not, toward Him at every moment.
He reveals to us, what He requires us to know, and if He didn’t reveal it to us, then He wouldn’t have required it. And He had revealed to the jews His Son and His Son’s disciples who had gone out through all the world preaching the good news of the incarnate Lord.
He even reveals Himself to those who did not seek Him, and holds out His hands to those who are disobedient to Him.
In short, and in summation, Paul hoped for the salvation of brethren, whom God would send His Son to redeem, but they would reject Him.
(anyone can say this herself if she chooses)
Lord, we call upon your name, that we may never loose our trust in you and never cease to believe in our hearts the whole of the gospel, we ask this, if it is your will, in Jesus’ name, Amen.
Paul doesn’t want the jews to go to hell or find eternal damnation. He loves his kinsmen and holds out hope and prays that they may yet find salvation.
This is an excellent example for us. We also need to love our enemies, and should pray and hold out hope for their salvation, no matter who they are or how much they may hate us.
He says kind words about them ‘as they have a zeal for God’, but notes that it is not enlightened. Grace comes from God alone, and it is only through faith in Him that a person can be righteous. The jews were ignorant of this righteousness, and faithlessly did not submit to God in true faith, but instead established their own righteousness (which is impossible, since a person without faith cannot be righteous as grace comes from God alone), and so we remember Jesus in the gospels criticizing these jews who had disregarded true obedience to God and were zealous for a corrupted teaching.
They just didn’t get it:
Matthew 9:13 Go and learn what this means, ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.’ For I came not call the righetous, but sinners."
Paul writes that Christ is the ‘end of the law’… that is a very important statement, as we understand that Christ is the summation or the fulfillment of all the law and the prophets. It also follows, that a person who rejects Christ has also ultimately rejected the law, the prophets, the promises to Abraham and God Himself.
But if we have righteous faith in Christ, who is the end of the law, we shall be justified. If we have such faith, and accept Christ, we have also accepted the One who sent Him as well.
Moses wrote that if you obey God, then you will prosper, but if you disobey God, then you will suffer.
How do you obey God though? Do you need to go up to heaven to find out what He wants or to go to hell to find out what He wants? Are God’s commandments in some distant place that we need to figure out what they are before we can do them?
(Interestingly enough, when Paul quotes this section, his quotation isn’t exactly the same as the passage from Deuteronomy that we have… I wonder if that means anything… was the text that he knew different from ours, or was he making a change to what was written under the Spirit’s guidance for this purpose?)
The law is not in some distant place, but is near us christians and we know it, and we are supposed to come to know Him who is the ‘end of the law’. And again he goes back to this justification by faith, although in different words, as he says that if we believe in Jesus in our heart, and be His witnesses in this world then we shall find salvation.
(It never ceases to impress me just how many times within such a short space that Paul is able to recite and reference quotations from scripture.)
If we sincerely seek the God who sent His Son to die for us, with the righteous faith through that Son, then we shall not be put to shame, but we are given certain promise of our salvation (but only insofar as we continue to follow this path and not go astray from it… since no one can know with certainty what they shall do in the future and whether ultimately we will necessarily be saved). This promise and offer is universal to all people.
He quotes the prophet Joel, ‘all who call on the name of the Lord shall be saved’.
Then he writes, how can they call on this name if they’ve never heard it or it have never heard a blessed preacher sent to them to preach the good news?
This makes me think of the number of people in the world who are ignorant of the gospel. It also reminds me of my own experience, when, once-upon-a-time, I was an agnostic before I converted to catholicism… relatively ignorant of Jesus and what this christian religion was all about… (technically I was raised as a protestant, but I stopped going to church when I turned 14).
But the thing is though, that ignorance is not itself an excuse, because we haven’t all heeded or listened to that which has been told us. He says that ‘faith comes from what is heard’, and he means what we hear which Christ is telling us, and in truth God is calling all of us, every last person in existence whether they know it or not, toward Him at every moment.
He reveals to us, what He requires us to know, and if He didn’t reveal it to us, then He wouldn’t have required it. And He had revealed to the jews His Son and His Son’s disciples who had gone out through all the world preaching the good news of the incarnate Lord.
He even reveals Himself to those who did not seek Him, and holds out His hands to those who are disobedient to Him.
In short, and in summation, Paul hoped for the salvation of brethren, whom God would send His Son to redeem, but they would reject Him.
(anyone can say this herself if she chooses)
Lord, we call upon your name, that we may never loose our trust in you and never cease to believe in our hearts the whole of the gospel, we ask this, if it is your will, in Jesus’ name, Amen.
D
D_M
Guest
Verses of potential interest:
‘Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on the law shall live by it’:
Leviticus 18:5 You shall therefore keep my statutes and my ordinances, by doing which a man shall live; I am the Lord.
Do not say, ‘who will ascend into heaven?’:
Deuteronomy 30:12-13 It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will go up for us to heaven, and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’ Neither is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will go over the sea for us, and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’
The scripture says, 'no one who believes in him will be put to shame:
Isaiah 28:16 therefore thus says the Lord God, "Behold, I am laying in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tested stone, a precious cornerstone, of a sure foundation: ‘Be who believes will not be in haste.’
As it is written, “how beautiful are the feet of those who preach good news!”:
Isaiah 52:7 How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him who brings good tidings, who publishes peace, who brings good tidings of good, who publishes salvation, who says to Zion, “Your God reigns.”
Have they not hear? Indeed they have; for “Their voice has gone out to all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world.”
Psalms 19:1-4 The heavens are telling the glory of God; and the firmament proclaims his handiwork. Day to day pours forth speech, and night to night declares knowledge. There is no speech, nor are there words; their voice is not heard; yet their voice goes out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them he has set a tent for the sun,
God Bless,
‘Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on the law shall live by it’:
Leviticus 18:5 You shall therefore keep my statutes and my ordinances, by doing which a man shall live; I am the Lord.
Do not say, ‘who will ascend into heaven?’:
Deuteronomy 30:12-13 It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will go up for us to heaven, and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’ Neither is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will go over the sea for us, and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’
The scripture says, 'no one who believes in him will be put to shame:
Isaiah 28:16 therefore thus says the Lord God, "Behold, I am laying in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tested stone, a precious cornerstone, of a sure foundation: ‘Be who believes will not be in haste.’
As it is written, “how beautiful are the feet of those who preach good news!”:
Isaiah 52:7 How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him who brings good tidings, who publishes peace, who brings good tidings of good, who publishes salvation, who says to Zion, “Your God reigns.”
Have they not hear? Indeed they have; for “Their voice has gone out to all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world.”
Psalms 19:1-4 The heavens are telling the glory of God; and the firmament proclaims his handiwork. Day to day pours forth speech, and night to night declares knowledge. There is no speech, nor are there words; their voice is not heard; yet their voice goes out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them he has set a tent for the sun,
God Bless,
C
christmary4ever
Guest
Thanks,
My purpose is to explain the faith well ,to at least
initiate a desire to investigate. with this people.
My E-mail is arnietetcfc2005@yahoo.com
M
mikeledes
Guest
Since I have a feeling Catholic Dude has something prepared for us
, I’m going to focus on the above verses. This passage is typically invoked by Protestants as a “proof text” for faith alone and used against baptismal regeneration. It seems to say that all that is necessary is to believe in your heart. However, this verse contradicts the notion of faith alone! Why? What does Paul say in this passage? Does he say you only need to believe in order to be saved (i.e faith alone)? No! He says “if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved” In other words, Paul is conditioning salvation on faith and confessing with your mouth. In other words, Paul is saying that salvation is conditioned on faith and a work.Now Protestants may respond, in an attempt to salvage the faith alone, that the act of confessing and believing are the same thing, that they both fall under faith. First of all, Paul makes a clear distinction between believing, an internal act (i.e. heart), and confessing, an external act (mouth). If Paul believed that believing in your heart was sufficient, why didn’t he just leave it at that? Why does he include an external work. Second of all, Paul makes it quite clear that while confessing or “calling upon the name of the Lord” may proceed from faith, it is not the same thing as faith. After saying…
13 For "everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."
… thus conditioning salvation on calling (i.e. a work) on the name of the Lord, he says the following:
14 But how can they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how can they believe in him of whom they have not heard?
Note that Paul makes a clear distinction between “calling” and “believing,” just as he makes a clear distinction between “believing” and “hearing.” Just as “believing” or “faith” is not the same thing as “hearing,” “calling” is not the same thing as “believing” or “faith.” So Protestant attempts to equate “faith” with “calling” in an attempt to salvage faith alone actually contradicts the distinction Paul himself has made. If Paul believed that faith and calling mean the same thing, then why does he make a distinction between “calling” and “believing” in verse 14?
However, just as faith proceeds from hearing, calling on the name of the Lord proceeds from faith. And yet, Paul makes it quite clear that it is not the one who had faith alone that is saved, but the one who believes and calls on the name of the Lord (i.e. a work) who will be saved. In other words, it is the one who believes in his heart and acts on that faith who will be saved. So when Paul talks about justification or salvation through faith, he means that faith is the beginning and foundation of salvation, as the Catholic Church teaches, but not that faith alone saves. Faith is what initiates the process that leads to one’s salvation and is the foundation of all other acts. You cannot love, hope, or repent if you do not have faith first. But you cannot be saved without love, hope, and repentance. Faith alone is not sufficient for salvation.
So I find it quite ironic that this passage that is so often used by Protestants actually contradicts faith alone because Paul adds “calling on the name of the Lord” or confessing with one’s mouth to believing in one’s heart/faith as a necessary condition for salvation.
God Bless,
Michael
S
SyCarl
Guest
I do not believe that these verses contradict faith alone.
Yes, Paul refers to both believing and confessing in verse 9. However in the next verse he separates them with each resulting in being saved. It could be argued then that confessing alone saves. But confessing is a compound action in that it presupposes faith in what is said. You don’t confess what you don’t believe.
Belief results in justification; Paul clearly says this and it is reinforced by the quote in verse 11. Confessing, since it involves faith, can also be said to save without hurting faith alone. You can have other things combined with faith without making that other thing necessary.
C
christmary4ever
Guest
Faith with out works is a dead faith. Can a dead
Faith saves?.
Good works is absolutely critical for our salvation. Matt 25: 31-46. It is in obedience to
the commandment of God. Can there be salvation
if we are dis obedient to God?.
Rom. 11:22 is a definitive example of saved christian who failed to hold on to the grace of
God ,and as a result loss their salvation.
again in James 2:21-22 Abrahams faith was completed by works. Can an incomplete faith
save anyone?.
and finally James 2:26 For just as a body without
spirit is dead.so faith without works is dead.
M
mikeledes
Guest
Are we saved twice? Once when we believe and again when we confess? Even the Classic Arminian/ Wesleyan branch of Protestantism teaches that salvation is conditioned on faith alone from beginning to the end. So, in other words, the act of confessing with one’s mouth is never a condition for salvation. 
Though how they reconcile sanctification and loss of salvation with their faith alone formula beats me. And Catholics believe that good works - and adult baptism - presupposes faith. Works done without faith cannot please God.Belief results in justification, but that does not mean faith alone. Take for example the following:
Mark 5:25-34
25 Now a certain woman had a flow of blood for twelve years, 26 and had suffered many things from many physicians. She had spent all that she had and was no better, but rather grew worse. 27 When she heard about Jesus, she came behind Him in the crowd and touched His garment. 28 For she said, “If only I may touch His clothes, I shall be made well.”
29 Immediately the fountain of her blood was dried up, and she felt in her body that she was healed of the affliction. 30 And Jesus, immediately knowing in Himself that power had gone out of Him, turned around in the crowd and said, “Who touched My clothes?”
31 But His disciples said to Him, “You see the multitude thronging You, and You say, ‘Who touched Me?’”
32 And He looked around to see her who had done this thing. 33 But the woman, fearing and trembling, knowing what had happened to her, came and fell down before Him and told Him the whole truth. 34 And He said to her, “Daughter, your faith has made you well. Go in peace, and be healed of your affliction.”
Jesus attributes her healing to her faith. But she was not healed by a mere “believing in your heart” (i.e. faith alone). That faith inspired a work (i.e. touching his garment) that resulted in her healing. So when Paul talks about faith, one should not assume that he means faith alone. Faith is the beginning and the foundation, but it is not the sole condition for salvation.
The problem is that, according to Protestantism, the only condition for salvation is faith alone. That means that any other act is a result of being saved, but not a necessary in order* to be *saved. However, Paul clearly conditions salvation on two things, not just one:
9that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, AND believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
Why doesn’t Paul simply say “only believe in your heart and you will be saved?” Why must he add an external act to faith as a condition for salvation? Paul also says:
**13for “WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.”
14How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher? **
The order of events is preach, hear, faith, call, salvation, not preach, hear, faith, salvation, call. Now you argue that something can be combined with faith without making it necessary for salvation? That still doesn’t explain why Paul explicitly conditions salvation on calling and not just faith alone. You’re right that calling - a work - must be preceded by faith. And as Catholics, we believe that all works must be preceded and rooted in faith. But if salvation is conditioned on faith and calling upon His name, then that is not faith alone.
God Bless,
Michael
C
Catholic_Dude
Guest
I’ve been busy on some other threads and havn’t had time to get back here, what I can say in this quick bit regarding the ‘believe’ and ‘confess’ distinction, I am reminded of John 12: 42Yet at the same time many even among the leaders believed in him. But because of the Pharisees they would not confess their faith for fear they would be put out of the synagogue; 43for they loved praise from men more than praise from God.
44Then Jesus cried out, "When a man believes in me, he does not believe in me only, but in the one who sent me. 45When he looks at me, he sees the one who sent me. 46I have come into the world as a light, so that no one who believes in me should stay in darkness.
47"As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it. 48There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day.
The context here is that many DID believe Jesus was the Christ, but the social pressure (eg threat of persecution, violence) was great enough that they would not openly LIVE that belief. This passage proves there are two ‘stages’ here, and genuine ‘believing’ does not automatically lead to “confessing.”
I also just found 1 Tim 6 which uses the same Greek word for “confess”: 11But you, man of God, flee from all this, and pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, endurance and gentleness. 12Fight the good fight of the faith. Take hold of the eternal life to which you were called when you made your good confession in the presence of many witnesses.
This “confession” is a public profession of a life-long lifestyle change for the sake of Christ.
44Then Jesus cried out, "When a man believes in me, he does not believe in me only, but in the one who sent me. 45When he looks at me, he sees the one who sent me. 46I have come into the world as a light, so that no one who believes in me should stay in darkness.
47"As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it. 48There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day.
The context here is that many DID believe Jesus was the Christ, but the social pressure (eg threat of persecution, violence) was great enough that they would not openly LIVE that belief. This passage proves there are two ‘stages’ here, and genuine ‘believing’ does not automatically lead to “confessing.”
I also just found 1 Tim 6 which uses the same Greek word for “confess”: 11But you, man of God, flee from all this, and pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, endurance and gentleness. 12Fight the good fight of the faith. Take hold of the eternal life to which you were called when you made your good confession in the presence of many witnesses.
This “confession” is a public profession of a life-long lifestyle change for the sake of Christ.
P
Pax
Guest
Amen:thumbsup:
M
mikeledes
Guest
Thank you for those verses!
And Paul clearly states that confession results in salvation:10 … and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
According to Protestantism, faith alone results in salvation, from initial salvation to final salvation. Everything else * proceeds * from being saved through faith alone, not results in salvation. Even if Protestants insist that this verse clearly indicates that a person is justified through faith alone, they also believe that a person is glorified through faith alone as well. So a verse that says confessing with one’s mouth (i.e.a work) results in salvation blatantly contradicts salvation (justification, sanctification, glorification) through faith alone.
The funny thing is that Paul doesn’t just say believe and confess and you will be saved. He also adds whoever calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved! The Bible frequently uses this phrase as a reference to invoking God in prayer (ex. Genesis 4:26, 1 Samuel 12:17-18, 1 Kings 18:25-36, Acts 7:59). So in Romans 10:9-14, Paul actually conditions salvation on three things; faith, confession, and calling upon the name of God.
That sure doesn’t sound like faith alone to me. The more I read and study Romans, the more convinced I am that the Catholic Church is right. 
God Bless,
Michael
O
Odell
Guest
**Chapter 11
1
I ask, then, has God rejected his people? Of course not! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2
God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the scripture says about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?
3
“Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have torn down your altars, and I alone am left, and they are seeking my life.”
4
But what is God’s response to him? “I have left for myself seven thousand men who have not knelt to Baal.”
5
So also at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace.
6
But if by grace, it is no longer because of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.
7
What then? What Israel was seeking it did not attain, but the elect attained it; the rest were hardened,
8
as it is written: “God gave them a spirit of deep sleep, eyes that should not see and ears that should not hear, down to this very day.”
9
And David says: “Let their table become a snare and a trap, a stumbling block and a retribution for them;
10
let their eyes grow dim so that they may not see, and keep their backs bent forever.”
11
Hence I ask, did they stumble so as to fall? Of course not! But through their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make them jealous.
12
Now if their transgression is enrichment for the world, and if their diminished number is enrichment for the Gentiles, how much more their full number.
13
Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I glory in my ministry
14
in order to make my race jealous and thus save some of them.
15
For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?
16
If the firstfruits are holy, so is the whole batch of dough; and if the root is holy, so are the branches.
17
But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, a wild olive shoot, were grafted in their place and have come to share in the rich root of the olive tree,
18
do not boast against the branches. If you do boast, consider that you do not support the root; the root supports you.
19
Indeed you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”
20
That is so. They were broken off because of unbelief, but you are there because of faith. So do not become haughty, but stand in awe.
21
For if God did not spare the natural branches, (perhaps) he will not spare you either.
22
See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God’s kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off.
23
And they also, if they do not remain in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
24
For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated one, how much more will they who belong to it by nature be grafted back into their own olive tree.
25
I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers, so that you will not become wise (in) your own estimation: a hardening has come upon Israel in part, until the full number of the Gentiles comes in,
26
and thus all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The deliverer will come out of Zion, he will turn away godlessness from Jacob;
27
and this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins.”
28
In respect to the gospel, they are enemies on your account; but in respect to election, they are beloved because of the patriarchs.
29
For the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable.
30
Just as you once disobeyed God but have now received mercy because of their disobedience,
31
so they have now disobeyed in order that, by virtue of the mercy shown to you, they too may (now) receive mercy.
32
For God delivered all to disobedience, that he might have mercy upon all.
33
Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How inscrutable are his judgments and how unsearchable his ways!
34
“For who has known the mind of the Lord or who has been his counselor?”
35
“Or who has given him anything that he may be repaid?”
36
For from him and through him and for him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen. **
1
I ask, then, has God rejected his people? Of course not! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2
God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the scripture says about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?
3
“Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have torn down your altars, and I alone am left, and they are seeking my life.”
4
But what is God’s response to him? “I have left for myself seven thousand men who have not knelt to Baal.”
5
So also at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace.
6
But if by grace, it is no longer because of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.
7
What then? What Israel was seeking it did not attain, but the elect attained it; the rest were hardened,
8
as it is written: “God gave them a spirit of deep sleep, eyes that should not see and ears that should not hear, down to this very day.”
9
And David says: “Let their table become a snare and a trap, a stumbling block and a retribution for them;
10
let their eyes grow dim so that they may not see, and keep their backs bent forever.”
11
Hence I ask, did they stumble so as to fall? Of course not! But through their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make them jealous.
12
Now if their transgression is enrichment for the world, and if their diminished number is enrichment for the Gentiles, how much more their full number.
13
Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I glory in my ministry
14
in order to make my race jealous and thus save some of them.
15
For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?
16
If the firstfruits are holy, so is the whole batch of dough; and if the root is holy, so are the branches.
17
But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, a wild olive shoot, were grafted in their place and have come to share in the rich root of the olive tree,
18
do not boast against the branches. If you do boast, consider that you do not support the root; the root supports you.
19
Indeed you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”
20
That is so. They were broken off because of unbelief, but you are there because of faith. So do not become haughty, but stand in awe.
21
For if God did not spare the natural branches, (perhaps) he will not spare you either.
22
See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God’s kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off.
23
And they also, if they do not remain in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
24
For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated one, how much more will they who belong to it by nature be grafted back into their own olive tree.
25
I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers, so that you will not become wise (in) your own estimation: a hardening has come upon Israel in part, until the full number of the Gentiles comes in,
26
and thus all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The deliverer will come out of Zion, he will turn away godlessness from Jacob;
27
and this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins.”
28
In respect to the gospel, they are enemies on your account; but in respect to election, they are beloved because of the patriarchs.
29
For the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable.
30
Just as you once disobeyed God but have now received mercy because of their disobedience,
31
so they have now disobeyed in order that, by virtue of the mercy shown to you, they too may (now) receive mercy.
32
For God delivered all to disobedience, that he might have mercy upon all.
33
Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How inscrutable are his judgments and how unsearchable his ways!
34
“For who has known the mind of the Lord or who has been his counselor?”
35
“Or who has given him anything that he may be repaid?”
36
For from him and through him and for him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen. **
O
Odell
Guest
22
See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God’s kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off.
23
And they also, if they do not remain in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
OSAS :tsktsk:
See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God’s kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off.
23
And they also, if they do not remain in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
OSAS :tsktsk:
- Status