Romans bible study

[SyCarl]

I think that verses 17-29 make it clear that when Paul is speaking of the law that he is talking about the whole Mosaic covenant and not just the ceremonial law. Examples of stealing and adultery are given which are not part of the ceremonial law.He talks about the Gentiles having the law written in their hearts and doing what the law requires. This can only apply to the moral law since the Gentiles could not be said to be performing the ceremonial law.

This view of the law would be in accordance with what Jesus Himself said. He did not limit the law to the ceremonial law.

So whatever you wish that men would do to you, do so to them; for this is the law and the prophets.
(Matthew 7:12 RSV)

And one of them, a lawyer, asked him a question, to test him. “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?” And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the law and the prophets.”
(Matthew 22:35-40 RSV)

It is artificial to say that in some places Paul is talking about the ceremonial law and in others he talking about the moral law. He uses the words circumcised or circumcision when refrerring to the ceremonial law.

This will be important when he starts talking about the works of the law.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

I think that verses 17-29 make it clear that when Paul is speaking of the law that he is talking about the whole Mosaic covenant and not just the ceremonial law. Examples of stealing and adultery are given which are not part of the ceremonial law.He talks about the Gentiles having the law written in their hearts and doing what the law requires. This can only apply to the moral law since the Gentiles could not be said to be performing the ceremonial law.

This view of the law would be in accordance with what Jesus Himself said. He did not limit the law to the ceremonial law.

It is artificial to say that in some places Paul is talking about the ceremonial law and in others he talking about the moral law. He uses the words circumcised or circumcision when refrerring to the ceremonial law.

This will be important when he starts talking about the works of the law.

This is a very good point, I (and others) used to think it was “ceremonial works” only (as opposed to moral teachings), but that is not quite true. He is talking about the Mosaic Covenant/Law as a whole, as its own system.

 

[smkw]

smkw;4183408:

I’m not a language scholar either, but the word does have many meanings, just some like English words do. So, when you open a dictionary under any given word you might see a list of different definitions for the same word.
Pax;4183923:

I did put that link in my article, but it is worth putting here again:
pugiofidei.com/logizomai.htm

This article really helped me understand the differences.

Thanks for the other link.
So, I’m assuming then, that you found these Greek words in another source? (Not going thru a Greek text yourself and looking for these “key” words.)
At any rate, our 7 person Catholic group is beginning a study on Romans and this information has been interesting “background” info.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

Thanks for the other link.
So, I’m assuming then, that you found these Greek words in another source? (Not going thru a Greek text yourself and looking for these “key” words.)
At any rate, our 7 person Catholic group is beginning a study on Romans and this information has been interesting “background” info.

No, I don’t know Greek. But there is something called a Lexicon which is basically a English to Greek Bible dictionary. Lexicons are available online or at Christian bookstores. Basically, you find the English word you want to look into, and the Lexicon will tell you what the Greek word is and more importantly where else that word appears in the Bible. Lexicons are very useful tools for studying the Bible because looking at how the word is used elsewhere you can form a better understanding of the word.

Good luck and God Bless with your Bible Study.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

12
All who sin outside the law will also perish without reference to it, and all who sin under the law will be judged in accordance with it.
13
For it is not those who hear the law who are just in the sight of God; rather, those who observe the law will be justified.
14
For when the Gentiles who do not have the law by nature observe the prescriptions of the law, they are a law for themselves even though they do not have the law.
15
They show that the demands of the law are written in their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even defend them
16
on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge people’s hidden works through Christ Jesus.

Verse 13 is also worth looking at, in many translation it reads more plainly “the doers of the law will be justified.”
Im busy now, but I’d like to talk about it more later.

 

[ryanoneil]

Verse 13 is also worth looking at, in many translation it reads more plainly “the doers of the law will be justified.”
Im busy now, but I’d like to talk about it more later.

Do you think it is accurate to say Paul is referring to the “law of Christ” in Gal.6:2?

Bear one another’s burdens, and so you will fulfill the law of Christ.

according to scripturecatholic.com/justification.html that is what Paul is referring to.

The “law of Christ” is faith in Christ and works based on grace (God owes us nothing) and “works of the law” (Rom 3:20) mean no faith in Christ, and legal works based on debt (God owes us something. The view that developed under the Old Covenant).

 

[ryanoneil]

PAUL QUOTES THE SEPTUAGINT

**For, as it is written, “Because of you the name of God is reviled among the Gentiles.” (Rom. 2:24) **

**But now, what am I to do here? says the LORD. My people have been taken away without redress; their rulers make a boast of it, says the LORD; all the day my name is constantly reviled. (Isaiah 52:5) **

I wonder if Paul added the word Gentiles because he was trying to convince Judaizers of the importance of his mission?

 

[smkw]

I want to start a study for my self and others of what I think is one of the books that on how one interprets it is pretty much what makes you catholic or protestant they are two very different ways of interpreting this book. And I would like to have a study that others and I can come back to and reference the different interpretations of this book.

please tell me what and how you interpret the particular chapter we are on, how a protestant should or a catholic should interpret it.

please no debating I just want to compare and contrast the different views. I want it to be a real bible study

But I will start a thred in apologetics where we can debate the differences. And link it here for us to turn to

If that thred is getting off the topic of a particular chapter you want to debate start a thred in the apologetics page and link it to the study for people that are anxious to debate someone elses interpretation I may be one of those

im going to try to keep this at a week per chapter

thanks and im sure we all can learn from this

**Chapter 1

1
Paul, a slave of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle and set apart for the gospel of God,
2
which he promised previously through his prophets in the holy scriptures,
3
the gospel about his Son, descended from David according to the flesh,
4
but established as Son of God in power according to the spirit of holiness through resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord.
5
Through him we have received the grace of apostleship, to bring about the obedience of faith, for the sake of his name, among all the Gentiles,
6
among whom are you also, who are called to belong to Jesus Christ;
7
to all the beloved of God in Rome, called to be holy. Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
8
First, I give thanks to my God through Jesus Christ for all of you, because your faith is heralded throughout the world.
9
God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in proclaiming the gospel of his Son, that I remember you constantly,
10
always asking in my prayers that somehow by God’s will I may at last find my way clear to come to you.
11
For I long to see you, that I may share with you some spiritual gift so that you may be strengthened,
12
that is, that you and I may be mutually encouraged by one another’s faith, yours and mine.
13
I do not want you to be unaware, brothers, that I often planned to come to you, though I was prevented until now, that I might harvest some fruit among you, too, as among the rest of the Gentiles.
14
To Greeks and non-Greeks alike, to the wise and the ignorant, I am under obligation;
15
that is why I am eager to preach the gospel also to you in Rome.
16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel. It is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: for Jew first, and then Greek.
17
For in it is revealed the righteousness of God from faith to faith; as it is written, “The one who is righteous by faith will live.”
18
The wrath of God is indeed being revealed from heaven against every impiety and wickedness of those who suppress the truth by their wickedness.
19
For what can be known about God is evident to them, because God made it evident to them.
20
Ever since the creation of the world, his invisible attributes of eternal power and divinity have been able to be understood and perceived in what he has made. As a result, they have no excuse;
21
for although they knew God they did not accord him glory as God or give him thanks. Instead, they became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless minds were darkened.
22
While claiming to be wise, they became fools
23
and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for the likeness of an image of mortal man or of birds or of four-legged animals or of snakes.
24
Therefore, God handed them over to impurity through the lusts of their hearts for the mutual degradation of their bodies.
25
They exchanged the truth of God for a lie and revered and worshiped the creature rather than the creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
26
Therefore, God handed them over to degrading passions. Their females exchanged natural relations for unnatural,
27
and the males likewise gave up natural relations with females and burned with lust for one another. Males did shameful things with males and thus received in their own persons the due penalty for their perversity.
28
And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God handed them over to their undiscerning mind to do what is improper.
29
They are filled with every form of wickedness, evil, greed, and malice; full of envy, murder, rivalry, treachery, and spite. They are gossips
30
and scandalmongers and they hate God. They are insolent, haughty, boastful, ingenious in their wickedness, and rebellious toward their parents.
31
They are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless.
32
Although they know the just decree of God that all who practice such things deserve death, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them. **

Have you ever looked at Haydock’s Catholic Bible Commentary? It’s on line. Written in 1859, but nothing’s changed!
He writes, in part, “when St. Paul speaks of works that are incapable of justifying us, he speaks not of the works of moral righteousness, but of the ceremonial works of the Mosaic law, on which the Jews laid such stress as necessary to salvation. St. Peter…(2nd Epistle, chapter 3) assures us that there were some in his time, as there are found some now in our days,who misconstrue St. Paul’s epistles, as if he required no good works any more after baptism than before baptism, and maintaining that faith alone would justify and save a man”…and it continues. It’s a good, comprehensive commentary. (There is commentary on the entire Bible!)
haydock1859.tripod.com/
Plan to read this alongside Romans.
Sue

 

[Odell]

Have you ever looked at Haydock’s Catholic Bible Commentary? It’s on line. Written in 1859, but nothing’s changed!
He writes, in part, “when St. Paul speaks of works that are incapable of justifying us, he speaks not of the works of moral righteousness, but of the ceremonial works of the Mosaic law, on which the Jews laid such stress as necessary to salvation. St. Peter…(2nd Epistle, chapter 3) assures us that there were some in his time, as there are found some now in our days,who misconstrue St. Paul’s epistles, as if he required no good works any more after baptism than before baptism, and maintaining that faith alone would justify and save a man”…and it continues. It’s a good, comprehensive commentary. (There is commentary on the entire Bible!)
haydock1859.tripod.com/
Plan to read this alongside Romans.
Sue

yes I do know of it and recommend it to everyone reading this study

 

[mikeledes]

I’ve been quite busy lately. Most likely I will post something in this thread tomorrow, God willing. I haven’t forgotten!

God bless,
Michael

 

[smkw]

I want to start a study for my self and others of what I think is one of the books that on how one interprets it is pretty much what makes you catholic or protestant they are two very different ways of interpreting this book. And I would like to have a study that others and I can come back to and reference the different interpretations of this book.

please tell me what and how you interpret the particular chapter we are on, how a protestant should or a catholic should interpret it.

please no debating I just want to compare and contrast the different views. I want it to be a real bible study

But I will start a thred in apologetics where we can debate the differences. And link it here for us to turn to

If that thred is getting off the topic of a particular chapter you want to debate start a thred in the apologetics page and link it to the study for people that are anxious to debate someone elses interpretation I may be one of those

im going to try to keep this at a week per chapter

thanks and im sure we all can learn from this

**Chapter 1

1
Paul, a slave of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle and set apart for the gospel of God,
2
which he promised previously through his prophets in the holy scriptures,
3
the gospel about his Son, descended from David according to the flesh,
4
but established as Son of God in power according to the spirit of holiness through resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord.
5
Through him we have received the grace of apostleship, to bring about the obedience of faith, for the sake of his name, among all the Gentiles,
6
among whom are you also, who are called to belong to Jesus Christ;
7
to all the beloved of God in Rome, called to be holy. Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
8
First, I give thanks to my God through Jesus Christ for all of you, because your faith is heralded throughout the world.
9
God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in proclaiming the gospel of his Son, that I remember you constantly,
10
always asking in my prayers that somehow by God’s will I may at last find my way clear to come to you.
11
For I long to see you, that I may share with you some spiritual gift so that you may be strengthened,
12
that is, that you and I may be mutually encouraged by one another’s faith, yours and mine.
13
I do not want you to be unaware, brothers, that I often planned to come to you, though I was prevented until now, that I might harvest some fruit among you, too, as among the rest of the Gentiles.
14
To Greeks and non-Greeks alike, to the wise and the ignorant, I am under obligation;
15
that is why I am eager to preach the gospel also to you in Rome.
16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel. It is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: for Jew first, and then Greek.
17
For in it is revealed the righteousness of God from faith to faith; as it is written, “The one who is righteous by faith will live.”
18
The wrath of God is indeed being revealed from heaven against every impiety and wickedness of those who suppress the truth by their wickedness.
19
For what can be known about God is evident to them, because God made it evident to them.
20
Ever since the creation of the world, his invisible attributes of eternal power and divinity have been able to be understood and perceived in what he has made. As a result, they have no excuse;
21
for although they knew God they did not accord him glory as God or give him thanks. Instead, they became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless minds were darkened.
22
While claiming to be wise, they became fools
23
and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for the likeness of an image of mortal man or of birds or of four-legged animals or of snakes.
24
Therefore, God handed them over to impurity through the lusts of their hearts for the mutual degradation of their bodies.
25
They exchanged the truth of God for a lie and revered and worshiped the creature rather than the creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
26
Therefore, God handed them over to degrading passions. Their females exchanged natural relations for unnatural,
27
and the males likewise gave up natural relations with females and burned with lust for one another. Males did shameful things with males and thus received in their own persons the due penalty for their perversity.
28
And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God handed them over to their undiscerning mind to do what is improper.
29
They are filled with every form of wickedness, evil, greed, and malice; full of envy, murder, rivalry, treachery, and spite. They are gossips
30
and scandalmongers and they hate God. They are insolent, haughty, boastful, ingenious in their wickedness, and rebellious toward their parents.
31
They are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless.
32
Although they know the just decree of God that all who practice such things deserve death, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them. **

 

[smkw]

smkw:
This may seem like a (duh! too obvious) comment, but as I was re reading this first chapter, I thought how very little has changed since Paul’s times. This could have been written yesterday.
It makes me wonder, as Catholics, if we are doing our “job” at bringing the message of Christ to the world.
It is so “unfashionable” to believe in God in this day and age, and everyone is so quick to listen to the latest thing that tickles the ears.
It is MY truth. You are entitled to YOUR truth. That sort of thing.
The upcoming election seems to be bringing out the worst in people, as well. (My husband just read a sci fi book where the U.S. had another civil war. The conservatives on one side, the liberals on the other. How far away is that?)
I’ve been convicted of the need to pray more, speak out more.
Yet, despite all the “doom and gloom”, it’s good to know that God has a loving plan for us.

 

[mikeledes]

Since we’re now in the chapter in which God says He will judge everyone according to their works, I would like to touch on a related issue, namely, the so-called “bema judgement.” Many OSAS dispensationalist Protestants believe that there will be three judgements - The Judgement of the Nations (Matthew 25), the “Bema” Judgement, and the “Great White Throne” judgement (Revelation 22;11-15). I’m just going to focus on the so-called “bema” judgement and how Romans 2:5-8 contradicts this notion.

For a thorough explanation of this concept, you can look at the following website:

allaboutgod.com/bema-seat.htm

The “Bema judgement” theory is really an attempt to completely remove any association between works and salvation. Those who uphold this theory primarily use the following passage:

2 Corinthians 5:10

10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

“Judgement seat” in Greek is “bema.” Now this passage is really just a variant of one consistent biblical principle, namely, that we shall all be judged according to our works. Although the “bema” judgement theorists make much ado of the use of the word “bema” in this passage, a “bema” is simply the official seat from which a judge renders a decision.

studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=968

So even the “Great White Throne” of the Book of Revelation can be described as a bema. In fact, the whole concept of a “bema judgement” is a redundancy. A “judgment seat” judgment?

As I stated earlier, 2 Corinthians 5:10 is really a variant of the “judgement according to works” principle. Romans 2:6-8 reveals what this judgement involves, and there is no reference to eternal rewards:

Romans 2:6-8

who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,

Judgement according to works involves giving eternal life to those who have persevered in doing good and eternal damnation to those who practiced wickedness. This principle is reinforced by Paul in Galatians 6:7-9

**7Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap.
8For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
9Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we do not grow weary. **

Jesus also states in John 5:28-29

**28"Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment. **

Which is another way of saying:

Matthew 16:27

**27"For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and WILL THEN REPAY EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS. **

I’ll give a more detailed explanation of the roles of grace, faith, and works later, when we discuss Romans 4. For now, I will simply state that the Catholic Church’s teaching that “eternal life” is both a grace (Romans 6:23) and a reward (Romans 2:7) is firmly rooted in Paul’s letter to the Romans.

God bless,
Michael

 

[smkw]

Since we’re now in the chapter in which God says He will judge everyone according to their works, I would like to touch on a related issue, namely, the so-called “bema judgement.” Many OSAS dispensationalist Protestants believe that there will be three judgements - The Judgement of the Nations (Matthew 25), the “Bema” Judgement, and the “Great White Throne” judgement (Revelation 22;11-15). I’m just going to focus on the so-called “bema” judgement and how Romans 2:5-8 contradicts this notion.

For a thorough explanation of this concept, you can look at the following website:

allaboutgod.com/bema-seat.htm

The “Bema judgement” theory is really an attempt to completely remove any association between works and salvation. Those who uphold this theory primarily use the following passage:

2 Corinthians 5:10

10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

“Judgement seat” in Greek is “bema.” Now this passage is really just a variant of one consistent biblical principle, namely, that we shall all be judged according to our works. Although the “bema” judgement theorists make much ado of the use of the word “bema” in this passage, a “bema” is simply the official seat from which a judge renders a decision.

studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=968

So even the “Great White Throne” of the Book of Revelation can be described as a bema. In fact, the whole concept of a “bema judgement” is a redundancy. A “judgment seat” judgment?

As I stated earlier, 2 Corinthians 5:10 is really a variant of the “judgement according to works” principle. Romans 2:6-8 reveals what this judgement involves, and there is no reference to eternal rewards:

Romans 2:6-8

who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,

Judgement according to works involves giving eternal life to those who have persevered in doing good and eternal damnation to those who practiced wickedness. This principle is reinforced by Paul in Galatians 6:7-9

7Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap.
8For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
9Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we do not grow weary.

Jesus also states in John 5:28-29

28"Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

Which is another way of saying:

Matthew 16:27

27"For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and WILL THEN REPAY EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS.

I’ll give a more detailed explanation of the roles of grace, faith, and works later, when we discuss Romans 4. For now, I will simply state that the Catholic Church’s teaching that “eternal life” is both a grace (Romans 6:23) and a reward (Romans 2:7) is firmly rooted in Paul’s letter to the Romans.

God bless,
Michael

 

[smkw]

Thanks, Michael, for that latest post. Great information.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

Do you think it is accurate to say Paul is referring to the “law of Christ” in Gal.6:2?

Bear one another’s burdens, and so you will fulfill the law of Christ.

according to scripturecatholic.com/justification.html that is what Paul is referring to.

The “law of Christ” is faith in Christ and works based on grace (God owes us nothing) and “works of the law” (Rom 3:20) mean no faith in Christ, and legal works based on debt (God owes us something. The view that developed under the Old Covenant).

I would agree with this, I would actually say it is also known as “the law of the Spirit of Life” as Rom 8 says:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
Jesus merited for us the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit! THAT is why we are not in a condemned state in bondage to sin because the Spirit freed us from it. Most Protestants don’t quote the full quote when they read this, they either quote just v1 or v3, but they unconciously often leave out v4. The Law itself cannot bring your soul back to life (Gal 3:21b), that is why Paul says the Law doesn’t save. However, with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit you can Love with a supernatural love which God demands and in that way fulfill the law. As Paul says “love is the fulfilment of the law” (Rom 13:8-13).

PAUL QUOTES THE SEPTUAGINT

**For, as it is written, “Because of you the name of God is reviled among the Gentiles.” (Rom. 2:24) **

**But now, what am I to do here? says the LORD. My people have been taken away without redress; their rulers make a boast of it, says the LORD; all the day my name is constantly reviled. (Isaiah 52:5) **

I wonder if Paul added the word Gentiles because he was trying to convince Judaizers of the importance of his mission?

Good point.

This may seem like a (duh! too obvious) comment, but as I was re reading this first chapter, I thought how very little has changed since Paul’s times. This could have been written yesterday.
.

While so much has changed, human nature has not changed. If you go back to even Genesis, it is the same types of sins people struggle with as today.

Since we’re now in the chapter in which God says He will judge everyone according to their works, I would like to touch on a related issue, namely, the so-called “bema judgement.” Many OSAS dispensationalist Protestants believe that there will be three judgements - The Judgement of the Nations (Matthew 25), the “Bema” Judgement, and the “Great White Throne” judgement (Revelation 22;11-15). I’m just going to focus on the so-called “bema” judgement and how Romans 2:5-8 contradicts this notion.

Very interesting. I had never thought about this bema issue specifically before. They turn it from a judgment seat to a rewards ceremony! What is cool though is I found out bema is located in Romans 14:10You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God’s judgment seat. 11It is written:
" ‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord,
‘every knee will bow before me;
every tongue will confess to God.’ " 12So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God. 13Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother’s way.This is clearly talking about “do not judge or else you will be judged” and “with the same measure you judge, that measure will be used against you” as Jesus taught. According to Protestants, justification is a legal decree with God acting as judge, ironically Paul never talks like that. The only time Paul portrays God as judge is in regards to personal judgement when they die.1 Cor 4: 1 Let a man so consider us, as servants of Christ and stewards of the mysteries of God. 2 Moreover it is required in stewards that one be found faithful. 3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged by you or by a human court. In fact, I do not even judge myself. 4 For I know of nothing against myself, yet I am not justified by this; but He who judges me is the Lord. 5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord comes, who will both bring to light the hidden things of darkness and reveal the counsels of the hearts. Then each one’s praise will come from God.

 

[D_M]

Hi,

Paul starts off here, after reciting all the moral depravity that existed in the world, to then in this chapter mentioning how it is that despite the existence of this depravity men still pass judgment. We judge others for things we do ourselves, and by doing so we bring condemnation upon ourselves.

The roman pagans did not need to hear it from Moses that those depravities were depraved, as Paul was not reciting violations of the jewish law but rather many crimes which are known universally as crime because the knowledge of their evil is written upon our heart.

We have no excuses, we cannot presume that God will pardon us without repentance and Paul reminds us that our sins are going to meet their due reward in time. He says this universally, both jew and gentile, everyone who does evil will be repaid that evil without partiality.

If we do evil, than evil shall be done to us.

If we knew the law, then we will be judged by the law, but if we did not know the law than we will simply be judged by our own conscience.

He makes a statement here which I think refutes the doctrine of sola fide, when he says ‘the doers of the law will be justified’. In other words, we are justified by our good works according to St Paul. His grace is always open to every last one of us no matter how much we sin and do not do good works, and therefore we are justified by faith apart from works, but in order to accept and continue in that grace and be justified it is therefore also necessary, as St Paul here says, that we do what the law requires.

Jesus said that those who love me will keep my commandments, we cannot be justified as christians if we do not love Jesus. And since it is only those who keep his commandments that love Him, therefore if we do not do good works than we do not really love Jesus and therefore we are not really His disciples despite our outward appearance or claim to be. Grace is lost by mortal sin.

Luther once claimed in a letter in 1521 that we should sin greatly but still believe and we will stay with Him:

"Be a sinner, and sin boldly, but believe more boldly still. Sin shall not drag us away from Him, even should we commit fornication or murder thousands and thousands of times a day "

Adolf Hitler seemed to have believed in Jesus, and he references the gospel in Mein Kampf. He cannot be justified by his belief only, if he really had it, when he was killing thousands of people everyday as Luther taught. A person who does such sins, has never really known Jesus despite their outward belief:

1 John 2:4 He who says “I know him” but disobeys his commandments is a liar, and truth is not in him;

1 John 3:6-7 No one abides in him sins; no one who sins has either seen him or known him. Little children, let no one deceive you. He who does right is righteous, as he is righteous.

It is not enough for us to believe, as St Paul writes, but only if we do in addition to belief can we be justified. If we call ourselves His disciples, and refuse to do His commands, than we are liars and not have not really come to His Truth.

In the second part of the chapter, Paul then focuses on the jews and asks how it is they can lead others to the truth when they are hypocritically not accepting it for themselves.

He then shows God’s non-partiality and universal judgment as well as salvation again when he then discusses how the circumcision of a jew become uncircumcision, as though they were not jews, when they reject the law. And how non-jews who do what the law requires have become as though they were the chosen people, when they obey what the law requires.

He is not a real jew, who is one outwardly but breaks the law is what Paul wrote. We could easily make a slight change to adapt it to our circumstance and write: ‘he is not a real christian, who is one outwardly’ but has lost God’s grace by his unrepented mortal sin.

The answer for us then, is clearly in order to be saved we must not only believe in Him, but also must do the will of His Father who is in heaven.

Verses of potential interest:

He will render to every man according to his works:

Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man is to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay every man for what he has done.

God shows no partiality:

Deuteronomy 10:17 For the Lord your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great, the mighty, and the terrible God, who is not partial and takes no bribe.

The doers of the law will be justified:

James 1:22-23 But be doers of the word, and nor hearers only, deceiving yourselves. For if any one is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who observes his natural face in a mirror;

James 1:25 But he who looks into the perfect law, the law of liberty, and perseveres, being no hearer that forgets but a doer that acts, he shall be blessed in his doing.

God judges the secrets of men:

Ecclesiastes 12:14 For God will bring every deed into judgment, with every secret thing, whether good or evil.

You then who teach others will you not teach yourselves?:

Matthew 23:3-4 so practise and observe whatever they tell you, but not what they do; for they preach, but do not practices. They bind heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on men’s shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with their finger.

God Bless,

 

[Bill_Cherry]

Im just posting so Im subscribed.I have nothing to add.

Carry on

 

[mikeledes]

Very interesting. I had never thought about this bema issue specifically before. They turn it from a judgment seat to a rewards ceremony! What is cool though is I found out bema is located in Romans 14:10You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God’s judgment seat. 11It is written:
" ‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord,
‘every knee will bow before me;
every tongue will confess to God.’ " 12So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God. 13Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother’s way.This is clearly talking about “do not judge or else you will be judged” and “with the same measure you judge, that measure will be used against you” as Jesus taught. According to Protestants, justification is a legal decree with God acting as judge, ironically Paul never talks like that. The only time Paul portrays God as judge is in regards to personal judgement when they die.1 Cor 4: 1 Let a man so consider us, as servants of Christ and stewards of the mysteries of God. 2 Moreover it is required in stewards that one be found faithful. 3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged by you or by a human court. In fact, I do not even judge myself. 4 For I know of nothing against myself, yet I am not justified by this; but He who judges me is the Lord. 5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord comes, who will both bring to light the hidden things of darkness and reveal the counsels of the hearts. Then each one’s praise will come from God.

The “bema” judgement argument is just an attempt to competely divorce works from salvation. Hence any passage that discusses judgement according to works in reference to Christians is explained away by using this argument. The problem is that passages like Romans 2:5-8 reveals what “judgement according to works” actually means.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Catholic_Dude]

The “bema” judgement argument is just an attempt to competely divorce works from salvation. Hence any passage that discusses judgement according to works in reference to Christians is explained away by using this argument. The problem is that passages like Romans 2:5-8 reveals what “judgement according to works” actually means.

God Bless,
Michael

I have been reading a few more “New Perspective” scholars and they are appealing more and more to Romans 2:1-15 as an integral part of understanding Paul, and they make it clear in their previous Protestant traditions Rom 2 was “out of place” and “didn’t flow” from Rm 1-3.