Romans bible study

[mikeledes]

CHAPTER 3

**1Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the benefit of circumcision?
2Great in every respect. First of all, that they were entrusted with the oracles of God.

3What then? If some did not believe, their unbelief will not nullify the faithfulness of God, will it?

4 May it never be! Rather, let God be found true, though every man be found a liar, as it is written,
“THAT YOU MAY BE JUSTIFIED IN YOUR WORDS,
AND PREVAIL WHEN YOU ARE JUDGED.”

5 But if our unrighteousness demonstrates the righteousness of God, what shall we say? The God who inflicts wrath is not unrighteous, is He? I am speaking in human terms.

6 May it never be! For otherwise, how will God judge the world?

7 But if through my lie the truth of God abounded to His glory, why am I also still being judged as a sinner?

8 And why not say as we are slanderously reported and as some claim that we say, “Let us do evil that good may come”? Their condemnation is just.

9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin;

10 as it is written,
"THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;

11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,
THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;

12 ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS;
THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD,
THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE."

13 “THEIR THROAT IS AN OPEN GRAVE,
WITH THEIR TONGUES THEY KEEP DECEIVING,”
“THE POISON OF ASPS IS UNDER THEIR LIPS”;

14 “WHOSE MOUTH IS FULL OF CURSING AND BITTERNESS”;

15 "THEIR FEET ARE SWIFT TO SHED BLOOD, 

16 DESTRUCTION AND MISERY ARE IN THEIR PATHS, 

17AND THE PATH OF PEACE THEY HAVE NOT KNOWN."

18"THERE IS NO FEAR OF GOD BEFORE THEIR EYES."

19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God;

20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,

22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;

23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;

25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;

26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

27 Where then is boasting? It is excluded By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith.

28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also,

30 since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one.

31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law. **

 

[northstar3]

I’ve been waiting for you to get to this chapter. I would really LOVE a explanation of 3:7, I’ve always had difficulties when reading that (What is Paul’s “lie”?).

Thanks!

 

[Odell]

I’ve been waiting for you to get to this chapter. I would really LOVE a explanation of 3:7, I’ve always had difficulties when reading that (What is Paul’s “lie”?).

Thanks!

Why is Paul also being judged as a sinner in verse seven when he should be coverd?

Maybe someone can enlighten us

 

[Catholic_Dude]

CHAPTER 3

**1Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the benefit of circumcision?
2Great in every respect. First of all, that they were entrusted with the oracles of God.

3What then? If some did not believe, their unbelief will not nullify the faithfulness of God, will it?

4 May it never be! Rather, let God be found true, though every man be found a liar, as it is written,
“THAT YOU MAY BE JUSTIFIED IN YOUR WORDS,
AND PREVAIL WHEN YOU ARE JUDGED.”

5 But if our unrighteousness demonstrates the righteousness of God, what shall we say? The God who inflicts wrath is not unrighteous, is He? I am speaking in human terms.

6 May it never be! For otherwise, how will God judge the world?

7 But if through my lie the truth of God abounded to His glory, why am I also still being judged as a sinner?

8 And why not say as we are slanderously reported and as some claim that we say, “Let us do evil that good may come”? Their condemnation is just. **

I talked about this earlier, in places like Post 38.
Paul is stating a hypothetical objection from a third party, Paul is not saying he himself is a liar or sinner here. The hypothetical question he is proposing is based on v3 that while not all the Jews remained faithful, God’s plans still were successful, so what Paul is stating is the question: “If sin actually brings about God’s glory, why not sin even more?..better yet, why would God be mad at me if my sins bring about His glory?”

The answer is that God’s plans are fulfilled in spite of our sins, but our sins are still subject to punishment if we don’t repent.

9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin;

10 as it is written,
"THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;

11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,
THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;

12 ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS;
THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD,
THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE."

13 “THEIR THROAT IS AN OPEN GRAVE,
WITH THEIR TONGUES THEY KEEP DECEIVING,”
“THE POISON OF ASPS IS UNDER THEIR LIPS”;

14 “WHOSE MOUTH IS FULL OF CURSING AND BITTERNESS”;

15 "THEIR FEET ARE SWIFT TO SHED BLOOD,

16 DESTRUCTION AND MISERY ARE IN THEIR PATHS,

17AND THE PATH OF PEACE THEY HAVE NOT KNOWN."

18"THERE IS NO FEAR OF GOD BEFORE THEIR EYES."

19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God;

I’m going to have to look into this more later today.
Apparently Paul quotes multiple OT passages here and I want to take a look at the context of those passages…unless someone else wants to.

20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

I think this passage is very important, the law was not meant to give life to our dead souls, it was meant to lead us to Christ. So when Paul says the Law doesn’t justify he does not mean “it does justify, but it is too hard and even impossible for us sinners” but rather “the law lacks the power to justify in the first place.”

21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,

I have come to conclude this “Law and Prophets” here refers to God’s plan of salvation being displayed in Abraham (Gen) and David (Psalms) and that is why Paul quotes these two men in the next chapter. The “righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed to” means God’s faithfulness to His plan of salvation is demonstrated in the “Law and the Prophets.” The part about “apart from the Law” means not according to the Mosaic Law system itself.

22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;

23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;

25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;

26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

27 Where then is boasting? It is excluded By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith.

28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also,

30 since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one.

31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.

This passage deserves an even closer look, but Ill have to do that later.

 

[SyCarl]

CHAPTER 3

**1Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the benefit of circumcision?
2Great in every respect. First of all, that they were entrusted with the oracles of God. **

In Chapter 2 Paul had been criticizing the Jews to show that they were not better than the Gentiles. He now answers any Gentile Christians who might use this criticism to claim they were better than Jewish Christians. While he addresses this more in Chapter 9, here he states that God entrusted His words to them in the Old Testament. God remains faithful to His covenant people even is some of them don’t believe.

Verses 3-9 are a serious of questions posed as objections that could be raised against Paul’s teaching.

3What then? If some did not believe, their unbelief will not nullify the faithfulness of God, will it?

 

[SyCarl]

(continued)

19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God;

20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

Paul then addresses the inability of the Law to save anyone. Here he must be addressing more than just the ceremonial aspects of the Mosaic Covenant. It appears clear here that he is talking about the moral law because not just the Jews are condemned by it. The Law speaks to those who are under it. If he were talking about the Mosaic Law this would be confined to the Jews to whom it was given. However he then says the Law shuts every mouth and makes the whole world accountable to God, not just the Jews. The role of the Law is to make sin clear. Without the Law we would not know what sin is, but now we do and it should be clear to us that we are all guilty of it. Our mouth is shut up and we can’t deny it. We are truly and unarguably guilty in the eyes of God.

21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,

22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;

23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;

25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;

26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Paul then sets out God’s gracious plan for our salvation. God’s righteousness is in contrast to the righteousness seen through the Law which we can never achieve. God’s plan is foreshadowed by what the Law required and what was proclaimed through the Old Testament prophets. We cannot stand on any claim of our own to righteousness since, as Paul has demonstrated, all of us are sinners. Jesus offered Himself as a sacrifice to satisfy God’s justice and turn His wrath from us. Jesus redeemed us by freeing us from our slavery to sin. We do not earn this salvation; it is by God’s grace, a gift that we accept by believing in Jesus. God’s righteousness is seen by the fact that He patiently endured those who sinned before the coming of Christ so that He could now show His true justice and mercy by saving all those who have faith in Jesus.

27 Where then is boasting? It is excluded By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith.

28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

We can take no pride in our salvation since it is not the result of anything we have done. If it was on the basis of our works it would not be a free gift. But it does not come to us through the law or works; it comes to us through faith. We are declared righteous despite the fact that we could never satisfy the righteousness demanded through the Law.

29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also,

30 since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one.

31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.

This salvation is given to both Jews and Gentiles who have faith in Jesus as there is one God who is God of both. The Law has not been done away with but it has been perfectly obeyed by Jesus for us. Thus, as humanity fell through the disobedience of Adam, it is restored by the obedience of Jesus on behalf of all who have faith.

 

[Odell]

CHAPTER 3

**

11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,
THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;

**

This is often quoted by Calvinist. How would a Catholic interpret this particular verse?

 

[mikeledes]

This is often quoted by Calvinist. How would a Catholic interpret this particular verse?

Man in his natural state cannot properly seek God. In fact, this is what Paul means by works of the law. He is referring to those works done by man in his natural state, which means not being in a state of grace, and thus have their origin in man alone. If man could properly seek and understand God using his own natural powers, then there would be no need for antecedent grace - grace that precedes faith - and we would end up with the heresy of Pelagianism or Semi-Pelagianism. Where we differ with Calvinists is that they claim regeneration - or being born again - precedes faiith and inevitably leads to faith. You cannot be regenerated and not come to faith (irresistible grace). In Catholicism, however, we uphold the biblical and historic understanding of regeneration, namely, that this occurs in baptism. In the case of an adult, faith must precede baptism and hence regeneration. However, repentance and faith must be preceded by prevenient or antecedent grace through which God enlightens the mind and the will and thus enabling a person to chose Him. Prevenient grace is resistable, unlike Calvinist regeneration.

So that passage is meant to emphasize man’s total dependance on God.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

The following is an excellent Catholic explanation of what works of the law means:

catholicevangelism.org/works-of-the-law-1.shtml

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Odell]

The following is an excellent Catholic explanation of what works of the law means:

catholicevangelism.org/works-of-the-law-1.shtml

God Bless,
Michael

I have gotten to page 5 good stuff but am going to have to finish reading later

I am one who has tought works of the law is just ceremonial
But have come to realize I have been wrong

Could you give a breaf catholic undestanding of works of the law

I wouldn’t know how to adress the question if it comes up

 

[Catholic_Dude]

In Catholicism, however, we uphold the biblical and historic understanding of regeneration, namely, that this occurs in baptism. In the case of an adult, faith must precede baptism and hence regeneration. However, repentance and faith must be preceded by prevenient or antecedent grace through which God enlightens the mind and the will and thus enabling a person to chose Him. Prevenient grace is resistable, unlike Calvinist regeneration.

So that passage is meant to emphasize man’s total dependance on God.

God Bless,
Michael

This is an important point you made.
The Bible uses the term “regeneration” in the Catholic sense (Titus 3:5). WHAT Calvinists understand as “regeneration” is what Catholics call “prevenient grace,” though with the resistible addition.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

I am one who has tought works of the law is just ceremonial
But have come to realize I have been wrong

Could you give a breaf catholic undestanding of works of the law

I wouldn’t know how to adress the question if it comes up

I used to think the same thing, until I was myself corrected by other Catholics.

Apart from that good link Mike gave, I would give this “brief” understanding:Gal 3: Just as no one can set aside or add to a human covenant that has been duly established, so it is in this case. 16The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed…who is Christ. 17What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise. 18For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on a promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise. 19What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. … 21Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. 22But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.
23Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. 24So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. 25Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.
The purpose of the Law was not to remove or take away the promise to Abraham. The Law was put in place to point to the coming Messiah, keep people in line, and expose sin. V21 says plainly, the law lacks the power to give spiritual life. THIS is why the Law doesn’t save and THIS is why Paul says salvation is apart from works of the Law, the Law was never intended BY ITSELF to save, it was a means to an end.

Many Protestants think the option is “either keep the law perfectly to be justified or by faith believe Jesus kept it for you.” That is illogical because the Law was never intended to save. Paul is not attacking any and all works, he is attacking a system which lacks the power to save.
2 Cor 3: 3You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts. 4Such confidence as this is ours through Christ before God. 5Not that we are competent in ourselves to claim anything for ourselves, but our competence comes from God. 6He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

7Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, fading though it was, 8will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9If the ministry that condemns men is glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness!
This is a very powerful passage.
The contrast of “stone tablets” to “life giving Spirit” is the key to understanding Paul’s teaching against the Law. The tablets here are nothing short of the 10 Commandments which Moses gave and when his face shined (Ex 34:28ff). The Law is the “ministry of death” not because it is evil, but because it is used to expose sin and put people on track, and most of all because it could only point out faults (condemn) but not impart life. Only the Spirit Indwelling in us can impart life, and with that we are enabled to fulfill the essence of the law which is Love (Rom 13:8-13; 2:13; 8:3-4).

Once you see this the whole Protestant/Catholic debate is seen in a different light. The issue is not “faith versus works,” but faith working through love which brings the Spirit (as has always been done since Adam) versus a system which lacks the power to impart life. So the Catholic understanding here is fully vindicated, justification is about bringing your spiritually dead soul back to life by infusing life/grace into it (Rom 5:5). Saying justification is legal and external, as Protestants and Luther did, is illogical and a distortion of Paul once you realize WHY Paul is attacking the Law.

I said I was going to be brief, so I’ll leave it at that, but I believe this is how Catholics need to approach this discussion with Protestants.

 

[Philthy]

CD:

The Law is the “ministry of death” not because it is evil, but because it is used to expose sin and put people on track, and most of all because it could only point out faults (condemn) but not impart life. Only the Spirit Indwelling in us can impart life, and with that we are enabled to fulfill the essence of the law which is Love (Rom 13:8-13; 2:13; 8:3-4).

So when asked what they must do to inherit eternal life, why did Christ respond (to the rich young man and the Lawyer) with “keep the Commandments…do this you shall live.”? Was he anticipating their post crucifixion faith?

 

[Bill_Cherry]

I apologize that I’m not as sophisticated in my expounding upon these things.
But here’s my take.
Faith without works

I believe in plumbing
I want some water
but i never get up to turn the faucet on
so i never get any water.

I need money
to get money i need to earn it
but i dont get a job
so im broke

i believe in God
i want to be like jesus
but i never act like jesus

 

[Catholic_Dude]

So when asked what they must do to inherit eternal life, why did Christ respond (to the rich young man and the Lawyer) with “keep the Commandments…do this you shall live.”? Was he anticipating their post crucifixion faith?

I don’t see why their immediate faith in Jesus was insufficient, they both approached Him believing Him a genuine inspired teacher. Jesus wasn’t talking about keeping the Mosaic Law in itself, He was pointing them to the fulfillment which is Love as the Sermon on the Mount and elsewhere show. The Rich Young man was also called to leave all follow Jesus, that is the essence of fulfilling the law. The Lawyer was likewise showed what it really means to love neighbor.

I would say the main issue to recognize is that Paul attacking the Law is about getting into the New Covenant, Jesus (and Paul later) was talking about how those already in are to live in the New Covenant.
Rom 13: 8Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law. 9The commandments, “Do not commit adultery,” “Do not murder,” “Do not steal,” "Do not covet,"a] and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”(“http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=rom 13&version=31#fen-NIV-28261b”)**] 10Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

11And do this, understanding the present time. The hour has come for you to wake up from your slumber, because our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed. 12The night is nearly over; the day is almost here. So let us put aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light. 13Let us behave decently, as in the daytime, not in orgies and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and debauchery, not in dissension and jealousy. 14Rather, clothe yourselves with the Lord Jesus Christ, and do not think about how to gratify the desires of the sinful nature.
This is the essence of what Jesus said.

 

[ryanoneil]

So when asked what they must do to inherit eternal life, why did Christ respond (to the rich young man and the Lawyer) with “keep the Commandments…do this you shall live.”? Was he anticipating their post crucifixion faith?

Not necessarily post crucifixion, but definately faith. We do not obligate God to give us grace/salvation like an employee obligates his employer to pay wages. Faith in Christ must be behind our good works in order for it to be considered a work of grace; otherwise, it is a “work of law” or obligation.

 

[Odell]

V21 says plainly, the law lacks the power to give spiritual life. THIS is why the Law doesn’t save and THIS is why Paul says salvation is apart from works of the Law, the Law was never intended BY ITSELF to save, it was a means to an end.

Many Protestants think the option is “either keep the law perfectly to be justified or by faith believe Jesus kept it for you.” That is illogical because the Law was never intended to save. Paul is not attacking any and all works, he is attacking a system which lacks the power to save…

Thanks so much this is really good stuff

 

[Odell]

the Law was never intended to save. Paul is not attacking any and all works, he is attacking a system which lacks the power to save.
.

Ok help me here the law lacks the power to save but good works done in grace (in Christ)do have the power to save

I can’t explain this without geting by Paul and the moral law

Help me here and thanks in advance for being patient

 

[Catholic_Dude]

Ok help me here the law lacks the power to save but good works done in grace (in Christ) do have the power to save

I can’t explain this without getting by Paul and the moral law

Help me here and thanks in advance for being patient

Hi,
I’m not sure what your question is. The “moral law” is the “fulfillment of the Mosaic Law” which is agape Love (loving acts done out of love for God).

 

[Odell]

Hi,
I’m not sure what your question is. The “moral law” is the “fulfillment of the Mosaic Law” which is agape Love (loving acts done out of love for God).

Ok im trying

Paul when he is saying the law does not save and we now know why the law does not save. But he is talking about both moral and ceremonial law.

So did the moral law not save because it lacked love for God if this is right can you add to that if there is more. Am I missing the picture? Im sure you can tell im confused