Romans, Protestants and Catholics

[t68ware]

I am attending a Bible study in my church (Protestant) and the first 4-5 chapters Paul talks about faith, not works, which justifies us and saves us. Now, I know we Protestants believe sola fide (not me!) but how do Catholics respond to the book of Romans where Paul appears to be teaching faith alone? How do you counter the argument of Paul?

 

[redrosetea]

Try Tim. 3:15 …the church is the pillar and foundation of truth…We had the church before we had the Bible

We have tradtion in the Catholic church, that goes back to when there was only oral teaching…Remember there was no Bible for almost 400 years after Christ died, till St Jerome put the canon together

 

[Flopfoot]

I don’t want to get into any of the sola fide discussions again but it’s rare to find one with so few posts in it to I’ll add my 2c. Try Matt 25:31-46. Also try that bit in James “Faith without works is dead”. Glad to hear you don’t fall for sola fide btw.

 

[dandn5000]

I don’t have a perfect understanding of these passages, but it is my point of view(prone to being wrong, of course) that Paul is trying to drive home to the Romans that works are fine and dandy, but the faith is what completes the meaning of the works. James is trying to drive home that faith is what allows us to even believe in God’s graces, but that the works complete the faith, and therefore complete the graces. I don’t get that Paul’s trying to teach salvation by faith alone, just teaching that faith is a vital part of it.

 

[Creary]

I would recommend doing like St Augustine does in chapters 17-20 of his work titled “De Gratia et Libero Aribitrio” or “On Grace and Free Will”, written around A.D. 426. You can find an electronic copy of it here (Protestant site) or here (Catholic site).

St Augustine focuses mostly on St Paul. He uses quotes from St Paul in First Corinthians, Ephesians, Romans, and Galatians. By looking at St Paul’s writings as a whole, St Augustine shows that there is no way St Paul could mean sole fide in Romans. In fact St Augustine points out Romans 2:6 where St Paul quotes Jesus when he says that God “will render to every man according to his works” (from Matthew 16:27). St Paul then goes on to speak of who those “who according to patience in good work”; they will receive “eternal life” (Rom 2:7), “but to them that are contentious, … etc.,] tribulation and anguish upon every soul of man that worketh evil …” (Rom 2:8-9) It’s hard for me to understand how anyone can read the “first 4-5 chapters” of Romans and come away thinking “Paul talks about faith, not works which justifies us and saves us.” and completely miss the first half of Romans chapter two.

Again, read St Augustine and follow his example. Read all of St Paul and it’s hard not to see how even St Paul himself counters the argument of sole fide.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

I am attending a Bible study in my church (Protestant) and the first 4-5 chapters Paul talks about faith, not works, which justifies us and saves us. Now, I know we Protestants believe sola fide (not me!) but how do Catholics respond to the book of Romans where Paul appears to be teaching faith alone? How do you counter the argument of Paul?

While Paul was certainly more diplomatic in his teachings to the Romans, he did preach faith and works.

Rom 2:5 But according to thy hardness and impenitent heart, thou treasurest up to thyself wrath, against the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God:
Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his works.
Rom 2:7 To them indeed who, according to patience in good work, seek glory and honour and incorruption, eternal life:
Rom 2:8 But to them that are contentious and who obey not the truth but give credit to iniquity, wrath and indignation.

Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, yet believeth in him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is reputed to justice, according to the purpose of the grace of God.

Here is an example of works without faith, which is the same as faith without works.

Rom 9:32 Why so? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were of works. For they stumbled at the stumblingstone.

Rom 16:26 (Which now is made manifest by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the precept of the eternal God, for the obedience of faith) known among all nations:

The same Paul wrote letters to the Galatians, Corinthians, Philippians and Ephesians, which Paul refers to with the Romans as known as among other nations.

Gal 5:6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing nor uncircumcision: but faith that worketh by Charity.

1Co 13:2 And if I should have prophecy and should know all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I should have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

Php 2:12 Wherefore, my dearly beloved, (as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only but much more now in my absence) with fear and trembling work out your salvation.
Php 2:13 For it is God who worketh in you, both to will and to accomplish, according to his good will.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you are saved through faith: and that not of yourselves, for it is the gift of God.
Eph 2:9 Not of works, that no man may glory.
Eph 2:10 **For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus in good works, which God hath prepared that we should walk in them. **

**I assume everyone believes there are no contradictions in the Bible, especially from the same author in his different letters.

Hope this helps.**

May the peace of the Lord be with you.
Prodigal Son1

 

[GodIsSalvation]

I won’t go into any citations because the previous posters have done a great job, but I believe the mistake too many people make (especially many Protestants) is that they try to read parts of the Bible in isolation. If you read the New Testament in its entirety, works and faith aren’t totally separate things as some people seem to assume when they make a sola fide argument. Instead, they are inseparable in that if you are truly faithful, your faith will lead to good works and if you continuously do good works for the glory of God, they will strengthen your faith. Granted, I’m no theologian but, to me, if you read the New Testament from this perspective, there are no hints of contradiction and it becomes clearly apparent that neither works without faith nor faith without works is a path to God and salvation.

 

[rwoehmke]

James is trying to drive home that faith is what allows us to even believe in God’s graces, but that the works complete the faith, and therefore complete the graces. I don’t get that Paul’s trying to teach salvation by faith alone, just teaching that faith is a vital part of it.

I would say that Faith is the vital part of it, but Faith without works is dead faith and dead faith does not save. Paul is speaking of live Faith which naturally leads, out of obedience to God’s will, which goes beyond saying “Lord, Lord” to good works. A person with live Faith not only claims to believe in Jesus Christ but has obedience to God’s will.

 

[Ignatius]

I am attending a Bible study in my church (Protestant) and the first 4-5 chapters Paul talks about faith, not works, which justifies us and saves us. Now, I know we Protestants believe sola fide (not me!) but how do Catholics respond to the book of Romans where Paul appears to be teaching faith alone? How do you counter the argument of Paul?

Faith Alone is a false, non-biblical, man made doctrine that did not even exist until it was fabricated in the sixteenth century after Christ. It was not believed by those directly taught by the Apostles, who received it from Jesus himself. Nor by any Christians for the next one thousand, six hundred years. It was invented in the Th century. That’s a very long time after Christ to be inventing new doctrines.

If you take the rest of the Bible intoacont, you’ll see that Paul himself doesn’t seem to thing that Faith Alone is enough, or even the Greatest thing. He himself says “Faith, Hope and Love; these three abide. But the Greatest of these is Love”.

The doctrine of Sola Fide, or Faith Alone is actually anti-biblical. What Paul is talking about is in relation to not just any works, but ‘works of the law’.
Also, the only place in the bible where ‘Faith Alone’ is used is in James and it explicitly says that we are NOT saved by faith alone. So, unless you can find somewhere in the Bible that explicitly says that we are saved by “faith alone”, I’m going to have to go with what the Bible explicitly says.

 

[saint_rafael]

St. Paul writes that we are justified by faith, but remember that nowhere does St.Paul write faith alone. The only place you will find faith alone is in James 2:24 when St. James says we are NOT saved by faith alone.

biblechristiansociety.com/index.php

This website has free CD’s or dowloads you can use for yourself.

 

[Bill_Cherry]

Is it just me? When I hear people talk about faith without works,…It sounds sorta ,well,…dead.(Yes-that was an intentional pun) And everyone talks about acts of charity and evangelization and all that stuff.They repeat over and over again’just because you do a lot of good stuff doesn’t mean your gonna go to heaven.You gotta have faith. Duh! maybe I’m missing it here…Doesn’t this mean that if you believe something is real then you should act like it? Or am I the one who’s missing it? I have faith that water will flow from the faucet . So, I turn the handle. Belief & action.I believe I will earn money.So, I go to work.Belief and action. If we are justified by faith alone,then I suppose that means I can earn money without having to go to work?Or I can get water out of the faucet without turning the handle? Or did I er somewhere?

 

[Cat]

Would you believe that while I was Protestant, I was actually taught by a Bible study leader to avoid doing good works because they show a lack of faith?

I’m serious.

Imagine if everyone listened to this teaching. We would be the rudest, stingiest, meanest, most sinful people on earth–I say most sinful because we wouldn’t be worried about our eternal destiny because “we have faith!”

In fact, this sounds like the false argument that St. Paul dealt with in Romans 6–“Should I sin more so that grace can abound?” The answer is “No!” (That whole chapter of Romans talks about the life that we should live as believers in Jesus.)

 

[GailMac]

I don’t want to step in this old debate, but here’s my spin…

I kinda think that when a heart is full of the love of God, we tend to DO good stuff anyway…the love of Christ compells us, so to speak. It is when we aren’t so close to Him that we tend to do good stuff grudgingly or under half-steam. But I definutely know that when we are busy loving Him, we tend to not notice how much “good works” we actually do. So, “good works” naturally follow the love of Christ.

Peace,

Gail

 

[bpbasilphx]

but how do Catholics respond to the book of Romans where Paul appears to be teaching faith alone? How do you counter the argument of Paul?

**That’s the point: St. Paul only APPEARS to be teaching “faith alone.”

If you read St. James’s letter, he looks at the SAME excample St. Paul does, and said that Abraham was justified by his works, and NOT by faith alone.

It’s for this reason Luther called James “the epistle of straw” and rejected its canonicity.**

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

Tell them to read all of Paul’s epistles, not just one line of his epistle to the Romans. It just so happens that in his epistle to the Philippians in Chapter 2, verse 12 he says **“So then my dearly beloved obedient as always to my urgings, work with anxious concern to achieve your salvation, not only when I happen to be with you but all the more not that I am absent.”**Sounds like God wants more than just faith here

They stress taking things literally so much, but explain away Matthew’s gospel in Chapter 25:34-40 when Jesus himself speaks and says to the people, "**"The king will say to those on his right : "Come, You have my Fathers blessing! Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food. I was thirsty and you gave me drink. I was a stranger and you welcomed me. Naked and you clothed me, I was ill and you comforted me, in prison and you came to visit me. Then the Just will ask him; Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you or see you thirsty and give you to drink? When did we welcome you away from home or clothe you in your nakedness? When did we visit you when you were ill or is prison? The king will answer them: I assure you as often as you did it for one of my least brothers, you did it for me. "
**Again, it sure sounds like he wants much more than just faith here. The common answer you get from them when you point this out is "if you have faith, you will do all these things. The only problem is that they do not always preach this. I could go on and on, but I think this gives you some fodder for the fight.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

 

[GailMac]

Hey there bpbasil - You asked a direct question and I will try a direct anwser:

but how do Catholics respond to the book of Romans where Paul appears to be teaching faith alone? How do you counter the argument of Paul?

**That’s the point: St. Paul only APPEARS to be teaching “faith alone.”

If you read St. James’s letter, he looks at the SAME excample St. Paul does, and said that Abraham was justified by his works, and NOT by faith alone.

It’s for this reason Luther called James “the epistle of straw” and rejected its canonicity.**

Most of the time I hear this passage quoted, it is in reference to doing all or some of what the Church asks of us. It is misused to justify all kinds of error and deviant ways of living. For instance, when I asked someone to pray a Rosary, I was flatly refused and quoted this passage and told how useless my Roasry beads were and was told in fact, my prayers were vain repetions, babbling like the pagans , etc. The passage is quite often used to make a false claim that nothing needs doing but a few things like getting saved, etc. I think that does Saint Paul a grave disservice. He was quite a man and carried the Gospel all over, and suffered greatly for his efforts. If he actually thought faith was all he personally needed to be saved, i.e. believe in Christ and that’s IT, then he could’ve sat back on his duff and done nothing else being as he would’ve been “saved” at that point. Right? But that is exactly how it is misrepresented.

Personally I don’t care a flip what Martin Luther did, said or experienced in his lifetime; I’m not a disciple of Martin Luther, but a follower of Jesus.

So, generally when folks start throwing Scripture quotes my way, I know it is an effort to get me to dis-believe that which the Holy Catholic Church believes and teaches. I see it as another of those insidious attacks from the ultimate jerk below! I’ll listen, but that’s just about it. Oh yeah, it reminds me to pray for those who do get deceived by those in league with the infernal one.

Peace,

Gail

 

[t68ware]

Hey there bpbasil - You asked a direct question and I will try a direct anwser:

Most of the time I hear this passage quoted, it is in reference to doing all or some of what the Church asks of us. It is misused to justify all kinds of error and deviant ways of living. For instance, when I asked someone to pray a Rosary, I was flatly refused and quoted this passage and told how useless my Roasry beads were and was told in fact, my prayers were vain repetions, babbling like the pagans , etc. The passage is quite often used to make a false claim that nothing needs doing but a few things like getting saved, etc. I think that does Saint Paul a grave disservice. He was quite a man and carried the Gospel all over, and suffered greatly for his efforts. If he actually thought faith was all he personally needed to be saved, i.e. believe in Christ and that’s IT, then he could’ve sat back on his duff and done nothing else being as he would’ve been “saved” at that point. Right? But that is exactly how it is misrepresented.

Personally I don’t care a flip what Martin Luther did, said or experienced in his lifetime; I’m not a disciple of Martin Luther, but a follower of Jesus.

So, generally when folks start throwing Scripture quotes my way, I know it is an effort to get me to dis-believe that which the Holy Catholic Church believes and teaches. I see it as another of those insidious attacks from the ultimate jerk below! I’ll listen, but that’s just about it. Oh yeah, it reminds me to pray for those who do get deceived by those in league with the infernal one.

Peace,

Gail

Hey Gail. bpbasil was actually responding to my quote I asked in the opening of this thread. Your advise, as well as everyone else’s is fantastic!! I greatly appreciate the Catholic perspective on this. Keep the answers coming!

 

[po18guy]

I am attending a Bible study in my church (Protestant) and the first 4-5 chapters Paul talks about faith, not works, which justifies us and saves us. Now, I know we Protestants believe sola fide (not me!) but how do Catholics respond to the book of Romans where Paul appears to be teaching faith alone? How do you counter the argument of Paul?

We have not only Paul (This is the Year of Saint Paul in the Catholic Church), but the entirety of scripture, including:

James 2:23-25 (King James Version) And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

This inspired scripture was written a very long time before “sola fide” was promulgated, but was inspired by the Lord to counter those who sought only a private faith, doing no good deeds for the poor.

Christ’s peace.

 

[ljahns]

There is so much evidence that Sola Fide is wrong. I think the following prayer written by Anthony DeStefano from his book Ten Prayers God Always Says Yes To(I highly recommend this book) sums it all up rather well(meaning what God wants from us):

With praise for all you are, Lord
And the thanks for all you bless;
Lord, grant these ten petitions
With your eternal Yes:

Please show me that you’re there
When I can’t see your face;
Send troubled souls my way
Their wounds I will erase.

Let me see with your eyes
My mind with your thoughts fill;
But more than wisdom give me
The strength to do your will.

Bless me with abundance
Then put me to the test;
Gladly will I give you
Much more than I possess.

Send me your tranquility
In troubled times and calm;
With loving arms sustain me
Through suffering and harm.

Forgive me for my sins
Though legion they may be;
When death and evil triumph,
Bring good from tragedy.

But most of all reveal
The meaning of my life
The purpose of my glories
The reason for my strife
My destiny in Heaven
No tears to flow again
My God please grant me all;
In Christ Our Lord,
Amen.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

I am attending a Bible study in my church (Protestant) and the first 4-5 chapters Paul talks about faith, not works, which justifies us and saves us. Now, I know we Protestants believe sola fide (not me!) but how do Catholics respond to the book of Romans where Paul appears to be teaching faith alone? How do you counter the argument of Paul?

There is nothing to counter. Our business is not to contradict the Word of God, but to be formed by & to enter into & to obey it: not to sit as judges over it. The Bible is the Word of God, & His Word - whether Incarnate, or written, or spoken, or preached - does not return to Him empty, but accomplishes all His Will; so to resist it, is to resist a Word that cannot be hindered; anyone who seeks to do so will only be crushed by it.​

Whether one likes what it teaches is completely beside the point. To counter or to dispute it is to imply that, despite any professions a person may have made of believing it to be all from God or entirely inerrant, that person after all believes no such thing, & believes it to be true or inspired or whatever no further that it agrees with what already believes. God’s Word is not to be disbelieved - all of it carries His Authority in some way, so all is worthy of acceptance, & all is to be accepted. For if we believe only those parts of the Bible that we wish to believe, we are not believing the Bible, but a “Bible” of our own imagining. For how can the Bible do its work in us, if we hear in it only what we already accept ? To hear it speak only what we allow it to speak, is not to hear it at all. Which defeats the whole point of reading it.

As to salvation by faith alone - in some sense at least, it is true. Many propositions & doctrines can be understood in a false sense or a true one, & this is one of them. So, once again, there is nothing to counter. Others may disagree - but AFAIK, that is perfectly compatible with Catholic teaching. I hope you enjoy your Bible study