meltzerboy
New member
“Politicians from both parties are like diapers, and they need changing frequently for the same reason.” LOL Great line, and probably true!
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LisaA
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Hi think you replied to me but meant to reply to Al. As I said, Peggy Noonan is a RINO at best trying to live off of the legacy of her Reagan years. I am aware she voted for Obama in 2008. Bill Buckley must be turning in his grave over his son’s duplicity. Very sad…
But you are right, the Left pulls out all these long gone former Republicans as the voice of the party. They are the Left’s useful idiots
Lisa
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LisaA
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BroomWagon, enjoy your posts. I lived in SLC for years and have several Mormon converts among my relatives. The reason Mormons do well economically is because they have a strong work ethic, strong family values and integrity.
If you look at what causes the majority of poverty in this country; unwed motherhood, substance abuse, dropping out of school, you will realize that the Mormon relgion is the antithesis of these destructive behaviors.
It is not hard to succeed in this country but those who are without values or faith tend to be more likely to go down the path of personal and financial destruction.
Lisa
meltzerboy
New member
As an intellectual, “thinking man’s” conservative (a rare species), William Buckley might have understood his son’s voting for Obama. After all, the former was in favor of the legalization of drugs back in the 1970’s.
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LisaA
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Or China or the former Soviet Union ? Yes redistribution has worked out so well…
Lisa
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LisaA
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Please check the actual statistics instead of demonizing capitalism. Look at other countries and you will see poverty caused by totalitarian regimes and a lack of protection for personal property. The Economist, hardly a bastion of Right Wing thinking provided statistics that there is never mass starvation in countries that provide property rights. That is a capitalist concept, not a “shared property” concept. In such places the tiny elite has all the power and the property.
Poverty in this country as compared to most of the worlds poor is laughable. People are not starving in the streets, dying in hospital parking lots for lack of medical care nor being shot because they speak against power.
OTOH as the richest nation in the world there would be no excuse for the kind of poverty you see in Afghanistan for example. So we have to address what we have and what we have is lifestyle poverty for the most part. People “choose” to be poor in this country by engaging in self destructive behaviors, unwed motherhood, substance abuse, failure to graduate from high school. The reality is that our social services industrial complex has created systematic and generational poverty.
To some extent we can’t blame the people themselves. They swim in a sea of despair and hopelessness, medicating themselves with food, drugs and casual sex.
EARNED SUCCESS is the key. Even at the most elementary levels if people feel they have the opportunity to succeed I think there is something in us all that wants to do the right thing. But our system encourages this self destructive behavior by supporting it, ignoring it or even encouraging it.
Simple Soul’s many posts are on point. We cannot change this country without changing hearts and minds. The culture is the problem, not capitalism.
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Rich_Olszewski
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For all the bad connotation that “redistribution” seems to have, can you, as a CPA confirm to me that the entire Tax Code calls for forms of redistribution, offering some people lower taxes or lower rates as compared to that others receive. It isn’t a level playing field as I understand it and this is due at least in part to the Code’s use of redistribution.
Not challenging you, Liza. Just ignorant. I’m no accountant by far.
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LisaA
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Yes if voting for Obama had been a THOUGHT process versus a FEELINGS process. Tell me anyone voted for Obama due to a careful analysis of his positions, his accomplishments, and his specific plans for America and its people.
I believe and think statistics show that people voted for whom they thought Obama was, for his race, for the idea of having a black president and assuaging our collective racial guilt, for his speechmaking abilities, and mostly because he was NOT GEORGE BUSH.
The euphoria, thrill up my leg response to Obama (something that baffled me from day one) reminds me of members of a cult or fans as in rabid fans.
Not a lot of brain cells went into the 2008 decisions by millions of people…just listen to the interviews and you hear emotion not thought.
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Rich_Olszewski
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There are people who voted Democratic for solid reasons.
Feelings entered into voting for Obama and for McCain. At a minimum, it can’t be said that everyone who voted for the GOP did so for purely rational reasons, either.
No one has to vote - or not vote as in my case - for any except their own reasons, whether you or I like those reasons or not.
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Tampa_Dave
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Rich, for the second time ever, I find myself in agreement with you (at least in part). The tax code totally needs revision precisely to eliminate unnecessary or unfair tax loopholes that allow wealthier working people to reduce their tax liability disproportionately. For example, a corporate executive or business owner should not be able to take a nominal salary and declare the bulk of his income as capital gains. I believe that income tax rates are reasonable if these particular taxpayers subject their true income to normal income tax rates. On the other hand, I believe capital gains rates should remain low for those who derive their income strictly from investments. I am open to a cap on income subject only to capital gains rates, say $200,000, for example. My complaint lies with distinctions between working people: the ordinary working stiff cannot escape federal income tax rates through special capital gains provisions like wealthy executives or business owners. Retirees and investors strike me as a different class of taxpayer who should benefit from preferable capital gains treatment with a reasonable cap on taxable investment income. Obama wants to change actual federal income tax rates; I want to fix the loopholes so more income is exposed to existing rates.
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LisaA
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Yes we have a progressive tax code and I think it feeds into a somewhat Leftist redistribution system. I also think that most rich people feel blessed and understand that “much is given much is asked” although certainly maybe they’d prefer to give to charity rather than the IRS.
There is a conceptual distribution between “redistribution” in the form of progressive taxation and collectivism, sharing of all property, and overt attempts to confiscate one person’s assets to give to the confiscator’s cronies. There is a difference between choosing to work hard, earn a lot and pay a lot and having the government take over industries (oops forgot about Government Motors) or natural resources and redistribute the proceeds.
Further the Code attempts to tinker in social engineering by providing incentives for certain behaviors, everything from charitable and mortgage deductions to capital gains and dividend rates.
So yes progressive EARNED income tax but also various mitigating provisions to characterize certain income or deductions as for the good of society and the economy.
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LisaA
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I didn’t say there were not. However I believe that the 08 race was emotion driven. All you had to do was listen to people being interviewed, listen to Chris Matthews who was practically in a “bromance” with Obama. There is some pundit that claimed he was the “messiah” the fainting and shrieking at rallies reminiscent of when the Beatles first came to America.
Thus I was countering Meltzerboy’s claim that Chris Buckley voted for Obama based on a thoughtful and rational basis. Frankly I think he was sticking it to the Old Man when he couldn’t be written outta da will!
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Rich_Olszewski
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Thanks, Dave and Lisa. Still a bit confused, but you’ve explained some of it for me. 
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LisaA
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BTW Romney was castigated by his own party for this very idea. He wanted to cap the income level for certain preferable rates. I believe it was $200K or $250K. I am not sure if it is still in his tax policy but he understands that only certain people really get the benefit of these provisions.
Another idea is mortgage deduction ONLY for to certain levels, no deduction for second home for people over a certain income level. We don’t want to go after Aunt Susie and her vacation rental but Mr Gotrocks and his million dollar yacht are another idea.
I think we can all agree that the Code is not fair, particularly in that it overtaxes effort and undertaxes investment…although I do understand the double taxation theory. However on the theory that we want to raise revenue painlessly as possible the onus should not be on working families.
Lisa
meltzerboy
New member
Don’t look at me, Lisa: I voted for Hillary in the primary, not Obama. I wasn’t so impressed by his rhetoric. However, I was even less impressed by McCain and his choice of a running mate. Sure McCain has the experience and is a man of principle (more often than most other politicians), but something about his erratic temperament, to put it charitably, did not appeal to me, as well as the fact he is still a REPUBLICAN despite being a maverick. People vote based on a candidate’s personality and party affiliation; they vote with their heart as well as, and sometimes rather than, their head. As my father used to say with regard to a variety of situations: “That’s the way we’re built.”
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Rich_Olszewski
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Same attitude I had then. I was Hillary’s man in the primary, and thought that Obama was wholly inexperienced for the job. McCain was principled, but he had Palin, an absolute deal breaker for me.
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LisaA
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Yes true but I think it would have been difficult for any Republican to win in 08. There were so many people that hated Bush they would have voted for Mickey Mouse over the Republican candidate. Further I think Obama was the right person at the right time.
I’ve spoken to intelligent people who voted for Obama and none of them said anything about what he had done or what he planned to do. It was all about "historic’ and “prove we are not racists” and “he is SUCH a great speaker after years of Bush’s mouthful of mush bumbling.”
FWIW don’t you think it was EMOTION that got Obama nominated over Hillary? Compare the two and tell me Mrs Clinton was not more accomplished, more experienced, more clear as to her objectives, better known to the American people, and ALSO historic in being a female candidate? She seemed unbeatable from out here in the cheap seats. Quite honestly I would have been a lot happier had Hillary won the election.
Something took over this country in 08 and it wasn’t a logical thoughtful decision making process.
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Rich_Olszewski
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So was I, and donated handsomely to her campaign. Beat my head against the wall when Obama got the nod. Still think she was and would be better than he on all counts.
meltzerboy
New member
I can’t disagree. There was an emotional tidal wave that took over in the 2008 election, which is not there today. The only problem for the Republicans this time around is their candidate! That’s why the election is so close.
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LisaA
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Agree and disagree. I think the MSM is greatly at fault for ignoring Obama’s failures and making hay out of every possible occasion when Romney misspeaks. Here’s the problem. Romney is a businessman, he’s not a politician. He speaks like a businessman, he makes decisions like a businessman, and he’s politically naive. Yes I agree he’s not a good CANDIDATE. Frankly for the good of the country I would rather have someone who’s not a great candidate but is a great executive (I put Romney here) than someone who talks a great fight but doesn’t get anything done or does the wrong thing.
Obama may have been a great candidate but I think he’s a terrible President. If people were paying attention or if the MSM were honest then I think a thoughtful decision could be made. I mean if someone REALLY likes the situation with Obama and votes for him, fine. But what I think is that people AREN’T thinking. They are either not paying attention or the message is being ignored.
Lisa
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